Elk with a .38-40!! A life long dream!

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:24 pm

Great story complete with pics! Awesome!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... h-a-38-40-!!

w30wcf

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:43 pm

Very impressive!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:45 pm

Very impressive....

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:50 pm

Great story of a a lot of hard work and good shooting. The old rounds can still work just fine.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:04 pm

Awesome! Just wait till Kirk D. sees this. right up His ally.

.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:05 pm

Very cool...

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:20 pm

That's quite an accomplishment.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:33 pm

Great story, one of the best ever here, congratulations. Great pics and great accomplishment.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:51 pm

Surely not... the gun writers say it can't be done!

But, wait... they also say...

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:57 pm

Griff wrote:Surely not... the gun writers say it can't be done!

But, wait... they also say...

At least he didn't use that useless 30wcf

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:55 pm

Anyone familiar enough with the 38-40 to say what it takes to get a 184gr cast lead bullet up to 1820fps?

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:02 pm

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:06 pm

Just perfect

N.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:54 pm

nemhed wrote:Anyone familiar enough with the 38-40 to say what it takes to get a 184gr cast lead bullet up to 1820fps?

Out of a rifle there are a number of powders that will do it.
With the Single Action Squib Shooting mousephart loads, most folks haven't a clue what those old cartridges are capable of.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:38 pm

that's was GREAT story with good pics...something to be said about the older non-magnum-belted-fast-walkers...I like the fact that he knew what his gun and caliber could and could not do...makes me think that my .30 W.C.F. should be ok too within reasonable ranges... :)

GoatGuy · Post by **GoatGuy** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:39 pm

What a story, feat and beautiful trophy. Not to mention the venison!

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:05 pm

Great story, from several angles. Age and experience justified, old friends together, fulfillment of a lifelong dream -- what more could you ask for?

cas · Post by **cas** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:25 pm

I know what it takes to get them to 1500fps in a Ruger… don't know that I'd want to shoot them in my 110 year old Winchester.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:35 pm

Everything done Exactly Right.

Very impressive... but I do hope he bought a lottery ticket or twelve to back it up...

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:56 pm

Great story & fine job with the old 38-40
Bell shot a train load of Elephants with a very small gun, in comparison id say the 38-40
would be over kill on a Elk

ollogger

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:27 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:Everything done Exactly Right.

Very impressive... but I do hope he bought a lottery ticket or twelve to back it up...

+1

KWK · Post by **KWK** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:30 pm

nemhed wrote:... what it takes to get a 184gr cast lead bullet up to 1820 fps?

I've no personal experience with the cartridge, but the Powley Computer reckons about 30,000 (assuming that's a 24" barrel). I don't have any modern load books with pressures at that speed. Whelen's book from around WW-I indicates the pressure was lower, around 25,000. He preferred the standard velocity load for shots on deer over 100 yd; he found it more accurate.

QCI Winchesters · Post by **QCI Winchesters** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:12 am

I don't think I would feed my '38WCF's any hot stuff like that, don't really see a point in it.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:45 am

nemhed wrote:Anyone familiar enough with the 38-40 to say what it takes to get a 184gr cast lead bullet up to 1820fps?

The main thing our reloader did to get an accurate load at that velocity was to build his own gas checked bullet. All the cast 38/40 bullets that I know of are plain base and you don't lightly buy 40 cal. gas checks, though there is at least one source for them.

Once you are not constrained by plain-base accuracy requirements then good old 4227 reaches your 1820 fps easily enough at under 30 K psi and Lil' Gun should get you there at 20K psi or on up to 2100 fps at the 30K psi level. Even older model 92's are not going to strain at 30K psi. Of course you wouldn't want to get these loads mixed up with ones you intend shooting in a model 73 or an old revolver: very similar to our situation with 45 Colt loads in wildly different pressure/performance levels depending on the firearm they are intended for.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:15 am

Here is a bit more information regarding the bullet used (from page 4) ..........

"I've been out of Idaho for a while..... to see the doctor.... This is a good thing in this case as my youngest son IS a doctor!

But I thought I would respond to a few comments I had missed in my absence...

First I repeat a paragraph from my original post:

"I had worked six months on both gun and ammo. Any failures would be me."

These two sentences were complex testing, as I'm a meticulous sort! I planned on 150 yards being my maximum yardage to attempt with the Model 92... Old eyes and iron sights being my concern. BUT I did test bullet mushrooming performance in fully saturated wet magazines (slightly tougher than elk meat) out to that range. A 135yd example** is illustrated for an example. It is full weight and .59" caliber. It is a cull boolit, good enough for this test, and not of 'hunting' quality. One great benefit of the 8.5bhn alloy at slower impact velocity is the frontal area is close to flat in shape! How's a .590" wide flat nose meplat?
(** See page 4 of the thread for a pic of the bullet)

Know that my elk hunt went better than I ever could have hoped for. Luck?? Naw.... better than that! I was BLESSED! But please don't equate this to not being prepared! My boolit was tested for expansion in several ways from 15 feet out to 200 yards. It had my confidence, in other words...

A well engineered alloy hardness in a cast boolit with 1850fps MV or slower can be a magnificent mushrooming game bullet; it was in the late 1800's to those of us that remember!. He-He...

Hollow points can be tricky to manage reliability-wise on big game. But I'd like to know the number of head taken with the .45 Gould boolit over the last 130 years!!!! 8.5bhn in the .25-20 with a hollow point makes one super destructive varmint boolit by the way!"

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:01 am

Very well done! He knew exactly where to put his bullets and he could put them exactly where he wanted. Note that one of the heart shot bullets would up in the meat on the far side. Mushrooming like that is bad news for the vital organs of any Elk.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:09 am

That was interesting! The guy stretched the limits on his rifle but did it safely. In a few old Lyman manuals I have, the loads are considerbly heavier. He most likely used new brass, knew the mechanics of his rifle, and knew where to place his shot.

Well done...........-------6

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:18 am

With the H.V. loads, brass will last only one or two reloadings before experiencing case head separations.

kevind6 · Post by **kevind6** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:33 am

You know, I'm much more impressed by someone taking a bull elk at 60 yards with a .38-40 than a 1,300 yard across-the-canyon shot with a long range super mag.

Well done.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:35 am

kevind6 wrote:You know, I'm much more impressed by someone taking a bull elk at 60 yards with a .38-40 than a 1,300 yard across-the-canyon shot with a long range super mag.

Absolutely.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:52 am

KirkD wrote:With the H.V. loads, brass will last only one or two reloadings before experiencing case head separations.

Very true if one uses the loads in the old Lyman Manuals that Sixgun referenced (over 2,000 f.p.s.!!)

In the .44-40 though, 4 reloads (R-P brass) of replication early W.H.V.cartridges and the cases are still doing fine....at least in my rifle (Marlin '94)

w30wcf

2520WHV · Post by **2520WHV** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:34 pm

I find using Starline brass for the .38-40 head and shoulders above all others.... both for strength and case life.

2520WHV

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:55 pm

Great story.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:01 pm

Would the outcome have been any different if he'd of used BP?

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:12 pm

KirkD wrote:With the H.V. loads, brass will last only one or two reloadings before experiencing case head separations.

Kirk, these 1800 fps loads are only a bit over 20K even using 2400; under 20K with H110 or Lil' Gun. Any m92 that shows case head separations operating at those pressures has some bad headspace issues.

My take on or intrepid 38/40 elk slayer is that he is a careful reloader who developed a load that gave him decent velocity for making up to 150 yard shots, provided adequate accuracy for that distance, and was not anywhere near a "hot" load.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:17 pm

How much 2400 would it take? In no way am I interested in going there. I use my .38-40 only for targets. But I load about 16 grs of 2400 and it seems like a very slow (but accurate) load with a 180 gr lead bullet. I have no idea what a max load of 2400 would be - and like I said, I'm not going to try it but I would be interested to know how much it would take to make an elk rifle out of the gun.

Personally, I think the guy was nuts. But that's a good thing. He did his homework, was satisfied with his self-imposed limitations and he closed the deal. My hat is off to him.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:34 pm

Brent,
.38 W.C.F. W.H.V. and .38-40 H.V. cartridges I have dissected contained anywhere from 19 to 21 grs. of Sharpshooter. Sharpshooter burns just a bit faster than 2400.

My hat is off to him as well. I think we are all "nuts" of sorts......in a nice way of course!

w30wcf

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:45 pm

BrentD wrote:How much 2400 would it take? In no way am I interested in going there. I use my .38-40 only for targets. But I load about 16 grs of 2400 and it seems like a very slow (but accurate) load with a 180 gr lead bullet. I have no idea what a max load of 2400 would be - and like I said, I'm not going to try it but I would be interested to know how much it would take to make an elk rifle out of the gun.

Personally, I think the guy was nuts. But that's a good thing. He did his homework, was satisfied with his self-imposed limitations and he closed the deal. My hat is off to him.

In the 39th Ideal handbook they list with the 180 gr plain base standard bullet a max of 23 grs of 2400 for a velocity of 1940 and a minimum charge of 17 grs for a velocity of 1340.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:01 pm

Thanks Don, I didn't realize that I was so far down on the range of loads for that powder. I don't have many reloading recipe books. I need to correct that if I'm going to continue with this smokeless stuff.

Actually, I will probably revert to black for this cartridge.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:01 pm

I stand corrected on the case head separations for H.V. loads. I don't load to H.V. velocities, but I went back and checked Clyde 'Snooky' Williamson's results for the 38-40. For his max loads (just over 1,900 fps and I won't tell you how much powder he used), the average case life was 4 loads. The discard reason was a 'ring at webb of case'. The original H.V. loads were 1,770 fps with a 180 grain bullet. This would be a significantly lower pressure than Williamson's max loads, so case life would be longer. If I wanted H.V. loads, I would try and get them with 5744 or even RL-7, provided I was able to get enough powder in the case, and there was not a lot of unburnt powder. I think 2400 would be a bad powder to use for H.V. loads, as it would generate a higher pressure spike than 5744.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:12 pm

Brent going back to black might not be a bad thing. With 35 grs 2f Olde Eynsford I got right at 950 fps from a 4.5 in barrel colt clone. Ought to zip right out there from a rifle.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:16 pm

I think it will be enough to knock down the 100 yds ram for CLA. And I have a hunch it will be relatively accurate with minimal fouling issues. I don't know why I think this as I have never shot a bp pistol cartridge in my life. But I to tend to lean towards irrational optimism at times.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:14 pm

casastahle wrote:Would the outcome have been any different if he'd of used BP?

With an 8.5 bhn bullet at 1,300 f.p.s. there might not be much expansion. A pure lead bullet would have expanded but the total internal damage would have been less due to the lower velocity. It would have penetrated aok and delivered a mortal wound but perhaps would have taken a bit longer to take affect.

Here's performance of an early factory .44 W.C.F. b.p. round in water. Muzzle velocity 1,300 f.p.s.
The early .38 W.C.F. lead bullet b.p. ammo or replications would give similar results.

w30wcf

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:53 pm

KirkD wrote: If I wanted H.V. loads, I would try and get them with 5744 or even RL-7

I haven't done a lot with the 38/40, only used 4227 of both H and IMR persuasion, with the objective of being able to load a 40 cal pistol bullet having no crimp groove, leaving the powder slightly compressed so I wouldn't get magazine setback even without a strong crimp. My little problem with this is that I got too much velocity for the plain-base bullet (about 1850 fps) and accuracy was mediocre. I didn't have any case head separations, but I didn't track how many loads these cases might have got (formed from R-P 44-40 cases).

Now I see folks making gas-checked bullets for these, which would make the 1850 fps loads more likely to shoot decent. And playing around in QuickLoad, 5744 looks promising and it even looks like you might get the job done with a compressed load of RL7 (about 27 grains worth). But the ones that look really good in QuickLoad are Lil' Gun and H110 for reaching 1900 fps and staying under 20K psi.

My caution here is that sometimes QuickLoad makes a powder look like it works miracles, and we know that isn't so. It seems awful close to on-the-money from my limited experience with the 4227's, but as I said I haven't yet tried any other powders and have yet to acquire a bullet that I'd expect to shoot OK at these velocities. And my rifle is temporarily in the hospital, waiting for me to repair a dovetail so I can reattach the magazine tube and fore-end that came unglued under my 4227 loads on the last outing. Might be RL-7 (or maybe RL-10x) would provide a more friendly velocity for the plain-base bullets with the dab of compression needed to prevent setback. And maybe I could break down and acquire the right mold for the cartridge...

QCI Winchesters · Post by **QCI Winchesters** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:27 am

BrentD wrote:I think it will be enough to knock down the 100 yds ram for CLA. And I have a hunch it will be relatively accurate with minimal fouling issues. I don't know why I think this as I have never shot a bp pistol cartridge in my life. But I to tend to lean towards irrational optimism at times.

Nothing wrong with BP in .38WCF, that is all I use in mine. Fouling is not bad, but I did have to add a small wax disk under the bullet. After that, accuracy is great, and even though I have shot no living critters with it other than coons, I would not hesitate to tackle a deer out to 100yds. I had a Winchester 1873, 92, Marlin 1894, and Colt New Service in the calibre. I still have all but the Marlin. All of them shoot great with BP, the bottleneck case keeps the actions clean, too. My loading is all done with the original Winchester loading tool. Here is a video of BP loads in my New Service.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5R9nsG9P3g

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:55 am

Very cool story, loved it. Back when I lived in Idaho in '81 I wanted to hunt elk with my only centerfire rifle at the time my Marlin 1894 in 44 mag using 240 gr. JSPs @ 1830 FPS but was short one month of being a resident when season started, and couldn't afford a non-resident license. My Marlin for elk sounds less like a stunt now than ever before.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:58 pm

w30wcf wrote:
KirkD wrote:With the H.V. loads, brass will last only one or two reloadings before experiencing case head separations.
Very true if one uses the loads in the old Lyman Manuals that Sixgun referenced (over 2,000 f.p.s.!!)

In the .44-40 though, 4 reloads (R-P brass) of replication early W.H.V.cartridges and the cases are still doing fine....at least in my rifle (Marlin '94)

w30wcf

This has been bugging me. Why would you get case head separations just because you use moderate-pressure loads rather than low- pressure loads? Or maybe we'd consider these to be "low-pressure loads" vs. "very low pressure loads". Because even the 30K psi loads that would be the very upper end of any 38/40 loads mentioned are fairly low pressure as far as any reasonably modern rifle is concerned.

My first auto-response was to blame the rifle -- excess headspace. But there is another way to generate excess headspace and that is through running our fired cases into a sizing die that sets the shoulder back too far. And as us 38/40 loaders realize almost immediately on firing a factory round -- the way the case comes from the factory and the way it comes out of the chamber -- well, they are noticeably different. When you fire the factory-new round, that fairly long looking neck becomes a short neck: the case takes on a whole new shape. (making the 38/40 the very first "Ackley Improved" cartridge back there before Ackley was born?

) So I'm thinking that running a case fully into the f.l. sizing die might very well be setting the shoulder back to get it more in line with the factory original and you'd be creating your own "excess headspace" situation in a perfectly good rifle every time you resize a fired case. Any chance this is what was happening to Snooky Williamson, Kirk?

I haven't ever had a case head separation with my 38/40, but all my cases were formed from 44/40. And I make it a practice to run a case into the f.l. size die only far enough to chamber easily in the gun. So essentially these are probably headspacing on the shoulder rather than on the rim, they didn't have the long neck to begin with, and then they don't get set back by the next sizing because I have so adjusted my size die.

And I'm thinking this might explain why people aren't experiencing case-head separations from 44-40's with warm loads: these don't have any shoulder to set back.

Anyway, these are the thoughts disturbing my tranquility this morning and now I feel better since I was able to put 'em into writing and harass my fellow levergunners with this.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:22 pm

earlmck wrote:So I'm thinking that running a case fully into the f.l. sizing die might very well be setting the shoulder back to get it more in line with the factory original and you'd be creating your own "excess headspace" situation in a perfectly good rifle every time you resize a fired case. Any chance this is what was happening to Snooky Williamson, Kirk?

He may have been full length sizing each time, I don't know. I will have to see if he mentions anything about this in his book. Full length resizing certainly reduces brass life, where the die shape is different from the chamber shape.