WW-II film on the 1911 and it's potential

[AJMD429]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro7N7dAm ... r_embedded

Interesting how VISIBLE the bullets are in the segment about 2 minutes into the film. Tracers...???

One ricochet off the silhouette is certainly smoking...!

P.S. - is it just me, or does the same guy do all the voice-over for every single WW-II era film ever made...???
Seriously, that voice is so distinctive that even comedians today parody it...!

[MrMurphy]

Yeah, they're using tracers, something they recommended back then for fast training since you could see exactly where everything was going. Lighting the range on fire is always an issue though.

.45 tracers were normally for survival signaling, etc.

[Grizz]

I ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH THAT TWO-HAND GRIP. IT'S A BALL BEARING SUPPORT.

I HAVE CONVERTED A WOBBLY-SHOT SHOOTER INTO A GROUPING SHOT SHOOTER BY USING A BETTER GRIP.

[Griff]

I ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH THAT TWO-HAND GRIP. IT'S A BALL BEARING SUPPORT.
I HAVE CONVERTED A WOBBLY-SHOT SHOOTER INTO A GROUPING SHOT SHOOTER BY USING A BETTER GRIP.

Yeah, wrapping the weak hand around the front of the grip, inter-locking the fingers of the strong-hand is a much better grip. I'm not sure it was in even limited use at the time.

[Old Ironsights]

I have an old declassified 16mm "War Dept" film on using the .45. One of my favorite bits was how to hip-shoot for airplanes...

[Panzercat]

I ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH THAT TWO-HAND GRIP. IT'S A BALL BEARING SUPPORT.

I HAVE CONVERTED A WOBBLY-SHOT SHOOTER INTO A GROUPING SHOT SHOOTER BY USING A BETTER GRIP.

1942 called. They wanted to let you know that the military no longer trains this grip.

That aside, it's full of interesting tidbits for novices 1911 shooters such as myself.

[Sixgun]

That must be the shortest training film in the history of the world.

Tracers they were. I believe if I looked around, I have some..----6

[Old Ironsights]

That must be the shortest training film in the history of the world.

Tracers they were. I believe if I looked around, I have some..----6

I just pulled my copy off the "history" shelf.

It's FB-19-152A, (20504-DA new numbering system). 16 minutes looks about right on the reel.

Now where did I put that 400lb 16mm film projector...

[FWiedner]

I liked that video.

Looks every bit as informative as the day it was published.

[Malamute]

That was a fun video to watch.

They talked about 50 yards. Many seem to feel handguns aren't good for much beyond 25 yards, or certainly not the 1911's. They'll usually shoot better than you'd think. Even with so-so groups at 25 yards, the 1911's can hit the 18" plate at 300 yards. Takes a few rounds to range in, and I can't hit it every time, but often enough to be fun and interesting. I do often cheat and use two hands though, and sometimes kneel and use the knee for an elbow rest.

[AJMD429]

I, too, noticed that my preferred grip is not like theirs, but I still liked the overall tone and historic aspect of the film.

I still think that same guy must have done ALL WW-II era narrations...

I use a right hand grip with a left hand 'cup' that I push forward in to with my right hand. Seems to work ok. Not a great shooter, but 12" gongs at 100 yards will get hit before I run out of rounds in a standard magazine.

[MrMurphy]

Most pistol work tends to be taught in close these days because that's where most fights happen. But people still train for longer range work. My academy class, day 1 there were guys who'd never shot past 15 yards (in two cases, guys who'd never shot a gun more than a month before) guys were hitting a chest sized steel target at 52m laser-ranged and verified offhand (two handed grip). We all shot two handed high-thumb as, demonstrated by competition and combat it's the fastest and most secure grip. I still went back to the thumb-over-thumb grip a few times when I wasn't paying attention, mostly because 15 years of doing it programs you pretty well.

50 yards isn't a crazy distance, it's more of knowing where your gun hits at that distance and being able to judge range correctly.

[WoodrowC]

I ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH THAT TWO-HAND GRIP. IT'S A BALL BEARING SUPPORT.

I HAVE CONVERTED A WOBBLY-SHOT SHOOTER INTO A GROUPING SHOT SHOOTER BY USING A BETTER GRIP.

1942 called. They wanted to let you know that the military no longer trains this grip.

That aside, it's full of interesting tidbits for novices 1911 shooters such as myself.

HaHa........good one...

[Grizz]

I use thumb over thumb shooting when revolvers because that's the correct grip. it makes cocking single action in recoil fast and efficient. when I was hunting my revolver was cocked by the time the sight was back on target. I still use the 'modern', ie post 1942 two hand grip, strong hand cupped by off hand.

I only shoot single handed when I want to waste ammo. It makes sense in the combat training video because it leaves the other hand free to handle and feed magazines during maneuvers.

I really like the walking in point shooting exercises and plan to incorporate that more regularly when plinking the gongs.

[Washita]

Funny that they show a very high grip on the pistol but never mention hammer bite. Until I got my first 1911 with a "spoon" grip safety i could never work up a lot of enthusiasm for shooting the .45 for that reason. At the end of a session of any length the finger-thumb web of my hand got pretty sore. I never could adjust to a low grip.

[Old Ironsights]

Honestly (not joking), If I had EVER run one of my .45 Ranges like that "instructor" on the film, I would have been Article 15'd in a trice and sent to police butts for a couple of years...

The muzzle discipline is nonexistent...

[Model 52B]

A few thoughts:

1) it was wartime - and not in the small way of current wars, but rather massive mobilization of draftees and almost all non exempt and otherwise healthy males. Even then only about half had ever shot a weapon of any kind, and they needed to get them combat ready with minimum time and minimum expense. That meant corners got cut.

2) the "instructor" in many was most likely a plow back who was one cycle ahead of the class. Later, they had the luxury of using a higher percentage of combat vets back who had been returned stateside for some reason.

3) The initial demonstration of prone and kneeling was reminiscent of the old FBI qualification course, although the FBI course of fire started at 25 yards, not 50.

4) The two handed position in the film is very archaic, but at least it was a two handed position rather than the just holding the weak arm across the chest as sort of impromptu body armor as was the law enforcement fashion of the era, and at leas they have them thinking about footwork - something missing from a lot of law enforcement qualification courses of fire today - in part due to an over emphasis on safety.

5) This is a good place to talk about the focus on safety. I agree the muzzle discipline is non existent, but they do talk about a firing line and safety angles, so safety was not completely absent. Things are different now, but not always in a good way. As an example, I spoke with a VA state police instructor at a seminar once he related the "oh S___" moment they had when watching a dash cam video of a shootout during a traffic stop. As the officer approached the car the perpetrator exited the drivers side door and began firing at the officer who returned fire at a range of maybe 7 yards. After a couple rounds the officer's weapon jammed and the officer STOPPED, TURNED TOWARD THE PATROL CAR AND RAISED HIS HAND! At that moment it occurred to everyone watching the video that the officer had done exactly what he'd been trained to do when encountering a stoppage, as that was precisely the procedure used on the range when a stoppage occurred - for safety reasons. Under the stress of the moment the officer had simply reverted to the lowest level of training he'd mastered. It's when they all realized they were focusing on the wrong things in training and it was going to cost lives in the field. In light of that, I take a slightly different view of old war time training videos like this where the emphasis on safety is not the same as it is now. There's a good reason for that.

----

50 yards is not all that long a range with a reasonably accurate pistol. I have a bad habit of sometimes deflating over inflated egos at one of the local ranges where you'll find guys who can't shoot all that well, but brag about their skills. As an example, we have a portion of a welding cylinder about 2' high and 8" in diameter upended on a spike at 105 yards on the range. It makes a great bell. Now and then you'll encounter someone competing with a buddy who manages to hit it maybe 3 times out of 5 offhand with a rifle and then lords over his buddy who did worse. Alternatively it will be a similar scenario but with a B27 target at maybe 12 yards - a distance they view as "long" and see as a valid excuse to miss the target a good percentage of the time.

That's when I'll pull out a 1911 and ring the 100 yard bell 4 or 5 times out of 6 - offhand. It looks impressive as hell but it's not. First, it's 2 ft tall so you can hold dead center and high on the target and not worry about elevation at all. It's also 8" wide so if your 1911 can group even 3" at 25 yards, you'll still nail it about 4 or 5 shots out of 6 at 100 yards. All you have to focus on is very precise side to side sight alignment and decent trigger control to break the shot when you're actually on target with good alignment. If I have a Single Six at the range I'll use that and go 6 for 6 as it's a very accurate 1" at 25 yards pistol to start with, has a longer sight radius and with a 50 yard zero is only dropping about 8" at 100 yards. Hitting anything at a 100 yards with a .22LR pistol really seems to impress people as many shooters don't view the .22LR as being a 100 yard capable cartridge even in a rifle.

The good news is that once you do something like that and get their attention, they might even shut up for a minute and be willing to take a few pointers on how to improve their shooting with a rifle or pistol.

-----

Even a .45 ACP with a 230 gr bullet at 800 ft per second will only drop about 18" at 100 yards with a 10 yard or 25 yard zero. That's still easily minute of man holding at the top of the torso/base of the head. In law enforcement and civilian shooting no one ever considers the pistol as a longer range weapon, but the reasons for that have to do with the perceived lack of an imminent threat rather than a lack of capability of the pistol. Given the trajectory and accuracy of the pistol and the size of the target, there's no reason you could not make effective hits at a target coming straight at you and presenting you with a low deflection shot.

[Ysabel Kid]

Very cool! Thanks for sharing!!!

[Malamute]

A few thoughts:

... Things are different now, but not always in a good way. As an example, I spoke with a VA state police instructor at a seminar once he related the "oh S___" moment they had when watching a dash cam video of a shootout during a traffic stop. As the officer approached the car the perpetrator exited the drivers side door and began firing at the officer who returned fire at a range of maybe 7 yards. After a couple rounds the officer's weapon jammed and the officer STOPPED, TURNED TOWARD THE PATROL CAR AND RAISED HIS HAND! At that moment it occurred to everyone watching the video that the officer had done exactly what he'd been trained to do when encountering a stoppage, as that was precisely the procedure used on the range when a stoppage occurred - for safety reasons. Under the stress of the moment the officer had simply reverted to the lowest level of training he'd mastered. It's when they all realized they were focusing on the wrong things in training and it was going to cost lives in the field....
----


That's when I'll pull out a 1911 and ring the 100 yard bell 4 or 5 times out of 6 - offhand. It looks impressive as hell but it's not....

I agree with the first part quoted. That's the reason my brass always goes on the ground, ejected with vigor in a revolver, ignored until completely done shooting with an auto. Rifles the same way, I don't eject gently to save the brass, I run the bolt sharply, and ignore brass from others until done. If I lose a few brass, oh well. I decided not to develop bad habits.

It's also fun to hit stuff farther away, and one handed. when I ended up in the northern rockies, there were a number of people I met that shot mainly one handed, for various reasons. One in particular was a true exhibition class shot. He could make first round hits at 300 yards with a Colt SAA, one handed, more so than I could two handed. It inspired me to try. I've shot mostly one handed for 15 or so years when practicing, you get the hang of it after a while, and shooting two handed feels like cheating. First round hits one handed on the 300 yard plate are pretty satisfying. (Its fun to make a shot like that, "ding!", then hold the gun up and say "anyone else want to shoot it?") Given a little coaching, most decent shots can do it two handed, one handed makes you really focus on the basics. Misses go a mile wide, at first. Good party trick though.

[Mescalero]

I am 61, and still like " SHOOT THE ROCK " at stupid long ranges.
It is just fun.

[Indigo22]

My buddy and I used to shoot golf balls with our 22lr kit guns back in the early 80's. Throw one out there and make it hop until it is either out of range or stuck in a foot print in the sand. Great fun. Had an off duty officer turn down the opportunity to give it a try because in his words we were crazy.
We also placed a water filled milk jug out on the sand berm at 125 yards and frequently perforated said jug. Old fashion Kentucky windage and learning where your gun shoots at any given distance is a lesson that all should learn ... few do though.