45 ACP vs 9mm

[MrMurphy]

Agreed. While my current duty piece is a .40, assuming wherever I end up getting hired by allows it, an M&P or Glock 9mm with as many rounds on board as I can get is my choice.

Most agencies around here allow a significant amount of individuality on choice, seeing guys using 2011s with 25 rounds of 9mm is fairly common, they're also typically serious competitive shooters.


Shoot till he stops and hits the ground. The '86 Miami shooting, one of the two scumbags was 'dead' with a round in the heart and lived for over a minute, long enough to put down two more agents.

I used to personally know a cop who (before vests) took a pair of .25s and it just about permanently crippled him. One hit the nerve cluster for his right arm and he couldn't draw, the other hit about 1/3" from his spine and he still walks with a cane (medically retired now for 25 years), from a .25 ACP FMJ load.

[Griff]

While there are no absolutes... without accuracy you aren't likely to be around to argue about it. Mindset is the ONE key that no one has been able to quantify or even adequately define since Cain slew Abel. LIke MrMurphy, I've known and worked with cops that have been in shootings and a couple that'd been shot... (Luckily, not me, tho' it was iffy a time or two)! There is nothing that will provide you the information ahead of time based on whatever factors you wish to include as to whether anyone will or will not survive a shooting. I would have never thought it possible to survive an almost point blank load of birdshot from a 12 ga, yet, I know a cop that did... plain clothes, no armor, only a skivvy shirt & hawaiian shirt in fact. The cop that killed that assailant killed him with his first shot of .38+P, (so said the coroner), 158 HPs, but it took 10 more for the 69 year old man to fall down. Another cop that was shot 6 times in the chest with a .45ACP (ball) survived and killed his attacker with a double tap from his .38Spl 2". When asked how he survived, the docs simply said, he believed he would.

Mindset. IT is the greatest tool in your arsenal. It's like the tac-officer that used to get up in my face in the academy... I mean right up in my face, his nose seeminly inside mine. One day, the LT came out and whispered in his ear... "don't do that to Griff..." The guy asked why not? The LT said, "I've seen his DD214. Come talk to me later." The Tac-Officer was a Marine, I was Navy... The next day at quarters, the tac-officer stood just about an arms-reach away... and was a little more subdued... until I said, "Sir, you're actually in more danger standing there than you were before, Sir!" He wouldn't inspect my rank after that... went to pick on easier prey... I guess. Actually, we became good friends. After he got over the fact that I was in the Navy, but especially after I shot him with his own gun... WITH his finger on the trigger! (It was a training exercise on how to defend yourself with a gun pointed at you... within an arm's reach). If you point a gun at a cop (especially THIS cop), you deserve to die... Period. In case you're squeamish, let it be known that no animals were harmed in this training.

[jeepnik]

Well, the eternal debate continues. Three pages so far. I wonder just how long it will last this time.

[Grizz]

Well, the eternal debate continues. Three pages so far. I wonder just how long it will last this time.

not long enough to suit me. the more real-world info I get, the better.

[JB]

He was quoting from an account by a WWI soldier who said, regarding the 1911 Colt - that in close quarters, the Germans who were shot by an American died on the spot, whereas the Germans who shot an American were then killed by the American, who then walked to the aid station and either made a full recovery or died from infection later.

Sounds like wishful thinking or an American propaganda story told to the GI's. Sure a bigger hole is always better for damage, but I don't think a 9mm hardball to the heart or spine would allow anyone to walk off anymore than a 45 hardball would. A hit with either to a non-vital area would however.

[madman4570]

Which brand Level III Kevlar vest are you wearing ???
We have penetrated level III with the Glock 20 (6.6 LW barrel)shooting the Underwood 155gr Bonded ammo @ 1630 fps with vest being attached to 3/4" plywood sheathing. ???

The double/triple shooting stuff to try and stop them-------not for me(a person moving fast at you and probably with bad lighting/items in way/etc.------------------you are lucky to get (1)proper hit. (Most LEO guys I talk to )tell me to aim upper center mass at the breast plate.(actually the area if you draw a line from where your underarms are to center of chest.
The higher velocity stuff (like the 10mm)wrecks havoc sending bullet/bone fragments threw out the upper chest region causing bad guy to be stopped (paralyzed/spinal cord diffused at the upper back/neck region. Along with mass tissue damage and quick bleed out.

It's a level IIIA, but Spectra, not Kevlar. It's rated for 200gr and 170 gr 10mm rounds, but it's not specifically tested/rated with 155 gr rounds at 1630 fps as for the most part the NIJ uses a 1400 fps max velocity. In that regard. Level IIIA won't stop a 7.62x25 Tokarev either. Speed is hell on body armor. So are ice picks, believe it or not.

The area you are describing is where a trauma plate normally goes to prevent exactly what you are describing. They may be steel or composite, but their function is to spread the impact over a wider area over the sternum.

Moving targets almost invariably draw center of mass shots, especially when the deflection angles are large. That's why bad guys aim center of mass even when the SWAT folks are wearing vests on the outside. But in a self defense situation the attacker will most often be charging directly at you if he or she is moving at all, so the deflection angles will be very small with the target just getting relatively larger as he or she closes.

LEOs will shoot at targets moving away or at sharp angles, but for a civilian self defense shoot that target movement will make it hard to justify a shoot as it gets hard to prove the guy you just shot was posing a credible threat of death or serious bodily injury, if he was arguably just trying to leave the area.

The need for rapid shots at close ranges is the major reason why the FBI has changed it's qualification course of fire. In the past it was heavily weighted with longer range shooting including the prone position, and now, while there is still 15 and 25 yard stages, they only account for 1/3 of the rounds fired, and it has a heavy emphasis on rapid shooting at 3, 5 and 7yards with all stages starting with drawing from concealment. It's a big shift:

Target: QIT-99 silhouette
Ammunition: 60 rounds
Scoring: 1 point per hit
Qualification: 48/60 (80%) for agents; 54/60 (90%) for instructors

All fired from concealed carry (you will draw from your concealed holster).

Stage 1 is the only stage involving one-handed shooting. All other stages are shot two-handed.

STAGE I

Starting Point: 3 yards
Total Rounds: 12

3 rounds, 3 seconds, SHO
3 rounds, 3 seconds, SHO
3 rounds SHO, switch hands, 3 rounds WHO, 8 seconds
STAGE II

Starting Point: 5 yards
Total Rounds: 12

3 rounds, 3 seconds
3 rounds, 3 seconds
3 rounds, 3 seconds
3 rounds, 3 seconds
STAGE III

Starting Point: 7 yards
Total Rounds: 16

4 rounds, 4 seconds
4 rounds, 4 seconds
Start with only 4 rounds in the gun (1 in the chamber, 3 in the magazine). 4 rounds; empty gun (emergency) reload; 4 more rounds; 8 seconds
STAGE IV

Starting Point: 15 yards
Total Rounds: 10

3 rounds, 6 seconds
3 rounds, 6 seconds
4 rounds, 8 seconds
STAGE V

Starting Point: 25 yards
Total Rounds: 10

Move to cover; 3 rounds standing; kneel, 2 rounds; 15 seconds
Repeated again in 15 seconds.

----

As a matter of form, Levels I, IIA, II and IIIA are soft body armor in level of increasing protection, while Level III is the first level that requires a hard plate (not just a trauma plate) that is proof against 7.62x51mm FMJ rounds with the remainder being equal to Level IIIA protection. Level IV has to be proof against .30-06 AP rounds.

Very good info!

[Old Ironsights]

Forget Mozambique. We're talking Zombies.

One to the Pelvis, 2 to the head.

[Griff]

Boiled down to its simplest terms; ask any old hot-rodder and he'll tell ya straight up, there's NO substitute for cubic inches, period.

[jeepnik]

Forget Mozambique. We're talking Zombies.

One to the Pelvis, 2 to the head.

Pelvis ok, that should drop them and give you some breathing room. But more than one to the head is wasting ammo, and you just never know how many zombies there will be in any give herd.

[Old Ironsights]

Read about too many folks taking one to the head & surviving. #1 cracks the shell. #2 scrambles the yolk.

[Model 52B]

Read about too many folks taking one to the head & surviving. #1 cracks the shell. #2 scrambles the yolk.

I agree a head shot any old place in the head is not guaranteed.

The area of the head that will hit the brain is actually about half the size of the head from the front and a bit less than that from the side. Worse, the area of the head that will produce immediate death without significant risk involuntary or voluntary muscle contraction (like trigger pulling) achieving what's called flaccid paralysis, is a small "T" in the area between the outer edges of the eyes and down the bridge of the nose to the upper lip. From the side, the medulla oblongata/brain stem is only about 2" square.

That small size and intervening barriers like trees and windows are what make's a police snipers job complex and challenging, even though the average engagement ranges year to year are only about 75-80 yards. Doing it with a pistol bullet is a total stuff shoot.

I have some interesting charts that show the target areas and markers that I could scan, but they are sadly at home and I'm working in DC for 3 days this week.

The link at the bottom is pretty good, puts things in simple terms and shows the coronary arteries and upper half of the heart that you'd need to hit to get immediate incapacitation through rapid loss of blood pressure resulting in lack of oxygen to the brain. Even then we're talking about 10 seconds of useful consciousness as being "rapid". Unfortunately, a lot "bad" can get done in the last 10 conscious seconds of an assailants life.

The author teaches tactical anatomy, but he briefly discusses the lessons from hunting that many people might find more familiar. If you've ever shot a deer in the upper chambers of the heart or in the coronary arteries leading from it, you'll notice the deer or antelope you shot only runs about 50' to 100' before it falls over dead - that's a reflection of the useful amount of oxygen in the brain once any useful blood flow to the brain stops.

You may have also noticed that even if hit in the lower portion of the heart, the animal may run several hundred yards before it dies. The reason for the poor performance for hits in the lower chambers of the heart is that the lower section of the heart is very muscular and is largely self sealing. Consequently, a bullet to the lower part of the heart may well cause the person, like a game animal, to bleed out, but it will be in minutes, not seconds. And oddly enough there have been cases of people surviving such hits. That's one area where reliable expansion in a hollow point really helps and an area where FMJs fail miserably since the small hole that results limits blood loss. (As an aside, generally speaking if a game animal I've shot runs more than 100', I wait several minutes to let it stop and lay down before I start any tracking or pursuit, as once down they don't tend to get back up, and if not pushed, badly wounded animals won't generally run very far.)

In simple terms it means that if you're shooting at the torso - rather than aiming center of mass, aim high in the chest at a level between the arm pits - a few inches above the nipple line. And if you are aiming at the head, you want to get hits in the center of close to center and ideally between the base of the nose and the eyebrows, and failing that really no higher than the middle of the forehead.

The target he's talking about is available as the BT-5-OPD. The Minnesota Dept. of Natural resources also uses a pretty good target with visible coronary and CNS zones - the MN-DNR-Q2.

On a standard B-27 target that every range seems to have plenty off, if you are not shooting for score you really want to be shooting at 12 o'clock on the outer edge of the 9 ring - shooting 8s and 9s rather than 10's.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-co ... uld-shoot/

[madman4570]

Guys I should say------I am no expert on taking someone down(so my posts)I might be right or might be kludged???

Heck I say-------lets just do what we can and here is a prayer all of my Leverguns pals are and stay safe.

Whatever you do----------------------do not bank on everything/or even most of what I say----------cause sometimes I ramble aimlessly,

Stay well my good friends.

[Old Ironsights]

Mod52B:

Yep.

My point was, if you are going to use 3 anyway - Mozambique style - then do something that is (a) immediately incapacitative (shattered pelvis) and (b) almost certainly lethal (2 to the head).

2 to the body + 1 to the head simply (statistically) leaves too many motive zombies for my tastes...

Axiom: If you don't SEE Zombie Brains, you missed them. Shoot again.

Axiom #2: Bigger Bullets/fast .30 cal bullets expel more brains...

Axiom #3: Learn to use a chainsaw, axe &/or sword...

[MrMurphy]

The actual points you have to hit on a pelvis to incapacitate someone are worse than making head shots.

Quite a few cops have stated that when they were lining up a pelvis shot (as a first shot) the scumbags stopped, not because they thought they'd get a broken pelvis, but because it very much looked as if the cop was about to explosively remove The Boys with a couple hollowpoints. That tends to get their attention.

I don't consider any hit immediately incapacitating unless they very obviously expired (shotgun slug blowing a literal hole through someone at contact range being one I saw about ten years ago) after a friend reported hitting an insurgent in Iraq with a five round burst of .50 BMG, the guy dropped, and after a moment, rolled over and tried to pick up his RPG. Considering his legs were shattered and his guts were everywhere.....he was still trying to fight.

Five more rounds of .50 finished the issue, but even from a 709 grain slug (multiple) the guy was on adrenalin and possibly other stuff, and kept trying to fight.

[Old Ironsights]

The actual points you have to hit on a pelvis to incapacitate someone are worse than making head shots.
....

That's why it's 1 + 2, not just 1 & ignore.

All I want is their (distracted) attention. If they can't walk after that, great. If I get enough extra fractions of a second to put a couple into the head, so much the better.

But there is a lot of empty (and "protectable") space in the Thoracic cavity that I really would rather not mess with.

Break bones and mess with the CNS. THAT is what stops people far before they bleed out...

[Grizz]

I do have a bit of hunting experience, subsistence in alaska, feeding the hungry home.

I have shot a lot of deer with hard cast bullets. The 44 mag shines while the 357 mag less so. There is an actual jump in performance with the 44. I think pros, "operators", would be well served to use that level of performance.

I have seen two hearts blow up just like a balloon. I guess they were full of blood when the bullet passed through. Lots of heart shot deer do run, exactly as was said.

Head shots don't move, except under gravity. I have seen them head shot with guns from 270 cal to 375H&H. They all dropped straight down.

I reckon in a self defense crisis that the aim zone starts at the adams apple or top of brisket, and extends to the eyebrow line. The neck shot gives ready access to the spine and two jugulars, and spine shots always, on deer, stop them cold. centered on the vertical axis is probably helpful. that should flip the big switch.

I think the biggest problem with people like me with no combat experience is a high degree of squeamishness about pulling the trigger. I just hope I never have to cross that line, but if I do I hope my hunter/killer training controls the outcome. Wounding an aggressor just compounds our danger.

Grizz

[Old Ironsights]

...I think the biggest problem with people like me with no combat experience is a high degree of squeamishness about pulling the trigger. I just hope I never have to cross that line, but if I do I hope my hunter/killer training controls the outcome. Wounding an aggressor just compounds our danger. Grizz

Yes.

'nuff said.

[Grizz]

Thanks so much for the 'where to shoot' article. I've been describing this to my wife and kids, now they can see it better. This should be a sticky somewhere.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that same zone is the ideal spot for a bowie or spear thrust, which can reach the medula or sever the spine or the blood vessel cluster as well as a bullet.

Grizz

[Old Ironsights]

Thanks so much for the 'where to shoot' article. I've been describing this to my wife and kids, now they can see it better. This should be a sticky somewhere.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that same zone is the ideal spot for a bowie or spear thrust, which can reach the medula or sever the spine or the blood vessel cluster as well as a bullet.

Grizz

Essentially.

Anatomy is anatomy.

Incapacitation comes from 3 different things:

Disruption of the Central Nervous System
Disruption of the Cardiovascular system (leading to anoxia/CNS failure)
Disruption of the Motive Structure

Depending on what is hit when, and how, any one of the 3 can be more incapacitating than the others.

1, Destroy the motive/support structure(s) and the aggressor can no longer move, though it may continue to operate.
2, Break the Pipes and the hydraulic & cooling system fails pretty quickly.
3, Smash the CPU or cut the CPU connections and it all shuts down.

If you plan on chaining the events 1,2,3 vs attempting on relying on just one of the systems, you will have a better over all chance...

There is a fundamental psychological difference between "shooting someone" and "doing what is necessary".

That modern people believe that the two are inseparable is the result of a Liberal Lie...

[Panzercat]

This thread needs another picture.

[Old Ironsights]

This thread needs another picture.

Only until I can get a sufficient power supply running...

Then my magnetically aligned electrostatically projected aurora delimited monomolecular cutting tool will be available to all prospective Jedis....

[AJMD429]

Colion Noir sums up the 45 vs. 9mm debate nicely...

[Old Ironsights]

Colin Noir sums up the 45 vs. 9mm debate nicely...

I like his videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHkqOWzDAZI

[nemhed]

Just think how empty the internet would be without debates like this!

To quote Colin Noir, " I define the gun, the gun doesn't define me".