Black powder ammo accuracy questions

[J Miller]

For near on 40 years now I've been shooting the .45 Colt. When I was in Arizona, younger, and in better shape I could keep my good smokeless powder loads in 2" to 2.5" groups at 25 yards, consistently. This was from both my single and double action revolvers.

However in all these years I've never been able to get any black powder ammo to equal that accuracy.

I didn't know that b.p. needed a compatible lube until after I moved to IL. So that is part of the lousy accuracy I'm sure.

But, just for the purpose of it, has anyone here been able to load full power b.p. .45 Colt loads and get them to shoot groups around the 2" to 2.5" size?

If so would you be willing to share your techniques and recipes? I'd really like to shoot some accurate b.p. ammo before the big dirt nap.


Joe

[Roland]

Can't speak for .45 Colt but I shoot BP .38spl out of my '73 uberti and it's very accurate. I use a lube called Emmerts Lube with added lanolin and carnauba. A big lube groove (or multiple ones) is nice for BP.

I just load up so that the BP is somewhere above where the bullet will be seated, resulting in some compression. This has given me excellent accuracy, I can hit the upper swinging plate at 50 yards if I use a rest (sometimes without too):



I use 3FG swiss for what it's worth.

[M. M. Wright]

Hi Joe,
A couple of things that I do are to lube with SPG, and use a drop tube to put the powder in the case. A big lube groove helps too in a rifle but almost any old bullet will hold enough for a pistol. It's the barrel length that's the culprit. I use an over powder card that is 1/8th inch thick too.
For many years I used a drop tube made from an old aluminum arrow shaft that had been ruined. Just cut off both ends so you have about 24" left and I tape a powder funnel to the top of it. I use a rubber tarp strap to keep the handle of my press from dropping while I'm not using it so the tube will just slip under that and remain upright. Weigh or scoop your charge, hold the empty case under the bottom of the tube and sorta slowly dump the charge into the funnel. You'll be amazed at how this compacts the powder in the case. Still regulate the charge to get a little compression, 1/16th to 1/8th inch. Less soot, consistant velocities and good accuracy. Easier clean up too but in a rifle I think the crud in the end of the barrel is harder this way so I use a damp patch to wipe with after every 10 or so rounds.
In big rifle cases, (45-90) I like to anneal the neck to get consistent bullet pull. You would think that new factory brass would all be the same but I know that Starline brass gives great accuracy after annealing the brass. I size and expand it twice after annealing but this may be obsessive/compulsive.

[Don McDowell]

Just takes a little tinkering to get blackpowder to shoot just as well or better than smokeless in any of the cartridges carried over from the day when there was only 1 powder.
Most folks fall into that bp needs a magnum primer claptrap. Then they try to use to much crimp. Lots of folks balk at using a card wad under the bullet, but it will help by leaps and bounds when looking for that accurate load. Bullet lube can make a difference, SPG is the oft recommendation, but truth be told there's a half dozen others out there that work better. Stay away from home brews, that takes to much of a persons time for no gain. Even the big bore rifles shooting greasers seldom use over 3 grs of lube per bullet, you can divide 7000 by that and decide how long a lb of lube would last..
3f powder is the best route to take with the small cases.

[Old Ironsights]

Listen to Don... (did I say that?)

Also, most people simply don't meter their Black consistently. Sever years ago when I did my BP studies, I found that one of the singe most important things you could do for both less fouling and lower SDs was to re-screen your powder for grain size consistency THEN measure & drop. By doing that I got the cheapest Chinese "firework" powder to have lower SDs than high dollar "out of the can" powder.

(The side benefit to re-screening is that you get a lot of 4F-7F powder for other uses as well...)

[Griff]

I'm assuming ou mean for yopur pistol?

My most accurate load with BP is a plain based 250gr Kieth style SWC with SPG lube over 35 grains of 3F Goex (didn't have the selection of powders we have today). Winchester cases & primers, bullets seated and a good roll crimp in the groove. This gave me a ragged hole, where you could see at least 4 of the 5 shots @ 25 yards, off sandbags.

After about 25 shots my accuracy would fall off, and I had to clean the gun to regain iit.

My cast RCBS 45-225-CAV boolits of 6 parts WW to 1 part Linotype, lubed with SPG over a ½" dia waxed paper card (think milk carton, which is what I use), over the same powder, & using the sames cases & primers, give even better groups off a sandbag. These are both rather snappy loads out of my 4-¾" Colt SAA, all bullets are sized @ .452.

The 35 grains is volume, and when puoted to the casr comes about half way up where the bullet would be seated. Instead of crushing the powder, I hold the case against the side of my vibratoer cleaner and let the powder settle that way. I hand press the card in just before this step so I don't lose any powder. Both of these bullets have the same depth inside the case. I also wipe off the base of the bullets so the card won't stick if there's any lube there.

I used to load my CAS loads tthe samem but with 2F, to make sure they were below the limit of 1,000FPS. But fot the volume, I don't bother. Now I load about 28 grains of Goex "Cartridge" under a plain base 160 grrain bullet with SPG. Accuracy? 'ell if I know, but if the front sight is on our 16"-20" targets when I pull the trigger, the bullet hits it! And I never clean during a match.

For my 1873 rifle, I use the same 225gr boolit and 28 grains of powder, but sans the card. At our 15-30 yard target ranges, accuracy is "good enough!"

[Model 52B]

Nothing really new to add here, but here's what I do:

I develop the alloy using 9 pounds of clip on WW and 1 pound of 50/50 bar solder and cast 250 gr PB RNFP bullets.

The powder charges are metered with a black powder compatible measure and for both .45-70 and .45 Colt I use a drop tube to allow a larger charge in the case and to improve load density and consistency.

Metal funnels are advisable as if you use plastic you need to ensure it does not build up a static charge as some plastics are prone to doing. Other wise it's just a 24" brass tube and some wood from Lowe's with some deck screws It uses o-rings around the tube to control/adjust the height above the loading block.


I use FFFg with .45 Colt and FFg with .45-70, and I use a compression die on top of a card wad (cut with a wad cutting die from the backs of legal pads) to get even compression (about 1/8" in .45 Colt and 3/16" in .45-70). IMHO, it works a lot better than trying to compress a charge while seating the bullet. Go easy on compression - you do not want to over do it and/or generate heat and friction in the process.

I use SPG for lube - it works well, I won't claim it's the best but it's a known quantity.

As for crimp, with a compressed load you need just enough to prevent the bullet from getting pushed back out of the case and nothing more. That will generally be enough to get consistent ignition.

----

I get lower SDs with black powder loads than I do with smokeless loads in my .45-70, but accuracy is about the same either way. In my 45-70 I use a blow tube between shots to keep the fouling soft enough not to build up - as cleaning results in a slightly different POI in my sharps for the first shot.

The smaller charges in .45 Colt normally allow me to shoot a full magazine before running a couple wet and dry patches through the bore.

[J Miller]

Griff,

Yes, I was referring to my revolvers. I suspect that if the load is decent from the six different chambers of a revolver it would be OK from a rifle. Or ... that theory could be bogus too

Joe

[w30wcf]

Joe,
A few years ago a fellow on the Open Range website tested a number of lubes in his black powder revolvers to see which one performed the best.
Note that the smokeless lube finished dead last.



w30wcf

[Don McDowell]

That would have been a good test, had he not of only used his best guns to test the lubes and bullets he wanted to come out on top. But alas he only used the 2 guns he knew were less accurate to test all but his favored lubes.
I'm still of the notion that his main focus in that test was to prove the Sagebrush Alox lube was not fit for use with blackpowder, never mind the stuff had set at least one womans division national record at the bpcr matches at Raton..

[Roland]

I can shoot a whole box of ammo (50) without having to clean out the gun with my homemade concoction.

[Nath]

See....I don't buy this making home made lube is a fiddle. My lubes works great. Granted I only use it smoothbores now but making it firm enough for lube rings is no effort. My rifles always had nice lube stars on the muzzle and fouling never made loading a muzzle loader difficult.
Candle wax and olive oil....how cheap and simple is that!

N..

[Roland]

I've tried my lube in smokeless 44 special loads and they worked fine, I plan to test it further in 9mm and .45ACP and whatever else I got. My hope I can use my BP lube for my smokeless lube too, then I can process all my bullets (I cast too) on my star.

Edit:
This was my original recipe:
-500g hardened vegetable oil (crisco in america)
-400g beeswax
-100g anhydrous lanolin
-50g carnauba wax

I had to add more lanolin and beeswax to get it the right consistency. I think just adding less carnauba next time will do the trick, like 25grams. It was a bit brittle at room temp but in a lubesizer with heater I think it'd be fine like that. I have to pan lube at the moment though.

Took me an hour to cook this and I got more lube than I'll get rid of in years.

[M. M. Wright]

An afterthought; Sometimes I make my own lube from toilet bowl waxes and olive oil. About 10 parts wax to 1 part olive oil. Never any petroleum product as the heat of black will turn it to charcoal consistency fouling. I blend it in an old electric coffee percolator with the innards removed then just pour the molten stuff into my sizer/luber. For "grease cookies" I line a pan with waxed paper and pour the stuff in to the proper depth, (1/8th"). Thickness can be regulated with a rolling pin. I buy wads from John Walters or Circle Fly. Too cheap to mess with making them. Too, I get my shotgun shell wads from them. Just tell them what you are loading and they will know what to send you.

[J Miller]

I've got maybe a box of that last batch of BP ammo I loaded with the smokeless lube left. Once that is shot up I will try another batch with a suitable BP lube. That should be interesting. I also think I'll have to break out ( dig out is a better phrase ) my casting equipment and cook up some Lyman 454190 bullets for this.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

Joe you can treat those smokeless lubed bullets sort of like a capnball gun, once the chamber is loaded squirt a dollop of TC bore butter in the cylinder mouth, or cover the bullet with bore butter or similar before chambering, and shoot a little cleaner than with the other powder lube. The biggest problem with the smokeless lube is it won't melt and coat the barrel at the lower temps and pressure that the blackpowder operates at. That's why a number of lubes like Bullshops Nasa, Sagebrush Alox, DGL and SPG work well with either flavor of powder.

[J Miller]

Don,

I read here that you could also use Crisco cooking grease in the front of the chambers. I've been doing that. Makes one heck of mess but does eliminate the cruddy residue of the lube.
Doesn't seem to help with the accuracy though.
So I'm thinking I did something else not right with this batch.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

Joe mix about 1/2 Vaseline and half paraffin wax and see if that works. Crisco is good for fryin chicken but that's about where it's real usefulness ends.

[Malamute]

An afterthought; Sometimes I make my own lube from toilet bowl waxes and olive oil. About 10 parts wax to 1 part olive oil. Never any petroleum product as the heat of black will turn it to charcoal consistency fouling...

I believe toilet wax rings are a petrolium product. They stopped using real beeswax years ago.