1963 Pre '64 Winchester '94 Question

[Michaux]

I'm looking at purchasing a shooter grade 1963 pre '64 Win. 94 thinking that it is a "real" pre '64. Serial No. 25692xx. However I've read that the changes made to the pre'64 94 actually began in 1963. (Simply on the drawing board or in the rifles I do not know) If this is true what is the difference between say a 1963 model and models prior to 1963. And if this is true and if I want a "real" pre '64 Winchester 94 should I stay away from a 1963 '94? This sounds kinda confusing but any help would be greatly appreciated.

Michaux

[Malamute]

With just a little info, you should be able to figure it out.

In the link (the flat part on the bottom that comes out when the lever is cycled), in pre-64's, it pivots on a pin, held in place with a small screw that goes in the center of the link on the bottom, post 64's had a screw for the link to pivot on instead of the pin/screw. That's one of the simplest things to look for. A stamped sheet metal lifter (carrier) instead of a forged/machined one is another post 64 difference thats easy to tell, you can see it when the action is open. Both earlier type features came back much later in time, but in the serial number range you're looking at, its simple enough of a distiction.

I've heard that some changes came earlier, but never seen any documentation of it and I havent seen any hybrid guns. I've also heard folks try to make finer distinctions between "pre-64" and call them "pre-63" or something of that sort. Its far simpler and less confusing to simply stay with the standard designation. I believe when production started in the year 1964 is when the changes were made, but dont klnow if it was the start of the year or not.. There was a gap in serial numbers when the earlier guns were halted and the new style came into production. Whatever the exact date of the start of "post-64" guns, the generally accepted number is 2,700,000 for the start of post 64 guns.

[twobit]

Hello Michaux,

If you buy a Model 94 with a serial number of less than 2,700,000 you will have a pre-1964 vintage gun. 1963 rifles are the same as those manufactured earlier.

Michael

[J Miller]

I had a 1963 vintage PRE-64 Win 94 Carbine. There was NO, I repeat NO, POST-64 parts or characteristics to that carbine. It was totally a pre-64.

The collectors will not acknowledge this, but there was a transition from the forged steel and machined receivers to the scintered metal cast receivers.
This occurred between the serial numbers that signaled the end of the pre-64s and the beginning of the post 64s. I have seen and held such guns.
They were put together with forged steel and machined receivers that were drilled, tapped and machined for the post-64 parts.

Malamute is correct about the easy way to tell.
Here is a tutorial I did about how to tell a pre- from a post 64 Win 94:
{ http://onesticky.levergunscommunity.org ... sters.html }

Joe

[Ji in Hawaii]

The really nice pre-64s are the pre-WWIIs.

[J Miller]

Ji,

I'd really like to know why people say that. Seriously I've owned both pre WW IIs and post WW IIs and they are all nice. Personally I think it's just collector prejudice coming out.


Joe

[Malamute]

Joe, some of it may be that there was a slow change in style and quality over time, even before 64. I like the pre-war guns mainly in that I like the earlier style, which are generally termed "Saddle ring carbines". I'm not crazy about the rings, but like the early style stocks, sights etc, particularly before ramp sights were used. Other than that, it doesnt make much difference to me once they went to ramp sights, they pretty much look the same as even post 64 guns overall.

Funny about collectors. When I first became aware of "flat bands" made during the war period, the first thing I thought of was how much it would cost to get a normal band so the gun would look better.

[Ji in Hawaii]

I believe it's it's a personal preference not really reflecting on quality but the rounded over sharp edges of the receiver on the pre-war examples. I'd personally love any pre-64 but alas could only afford a post-64 my 357 mag Trapper that I modified using a lower leaf spring hammer and trigger assembly from a 70's vintage '94. WOW already been 10 years since I got that one. Time flies...

[Malamute]

Hadn't thought about that Ji, but the earlier guns have more bevel on the bottom edge of the receiver. I picking up my '27 gun I can tell right away by feel that its the earlier gun than a later pre-64 gun.

[Michaux]

Thanks folks for all the information...I'm gonna go for it.

Michaux

[pwl44m]

Another quick reference is the top of the Bolt, smooth all the way across the top on post 64 and pre has a small cutout toward the front.
Welcome to the forum michaux, go for it . It won't be Ur last if U stick around here.
Perry

[cshold]

Welcome to the forum Michaux.
Awsome handle & an awsome PA. State forest.

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/st ... /index.htm

[Michaux]

I've been lurk'n and glean'n for years...Great forum!

Michaux

[Sixgun]

The really nice pre-64s are the pre-WWIIs.

Yes, but the ones before WW1 are nicer yet.

The finest craftsmanship in my opinion is the 1873 to about 1900 period. It goes downhill after that. Color case hardening was no long standard along with the polishing marks becoming noticeable. I have some regular standard guns produced in the 80's and 90's that rival the best craftsmanship ever produced.------6

[Michaux]

Welcome to the forum Michaux.
Awsome handle & an awsome PA. State forest.

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/st ... /index.htm

Thanks; Michaux St. Forest is a beautiful forest (a little crowded lately with all the bikers/hikers/horse riders and four wheelers), but it's where this particular '94 will be carried year round as I do my scouting and walk-a-bouts.

[J Miller]

Malamute, Ji,

I guess I was looking at them more from the mechanical viewpoint. The visual appearance certainly did change over the years, and I do like the earlier receiver configuration better. My very first Win 1894 was an early 1900s SRC in 30 WCF. I still regret the trading of the carbine, even though over 40 years has passed.

And I did the same thing with the Flatband 94 I had. Thought very seriously about putting a regular front band on it to make it look better. I didn't though.

However I've been a shooter of all the 94s I've had, never was one to buy a gun just to fondle and stare at it.

Joe

PS: If I could come up with a mint pre ramp carbine barrel I'd be tempted to re-barrel my 1950 to that style. Then I'd just have to D&T it for a saddle ring. I'm the odd man out here, I like them.

[Old Savage]

Six, I am shocked, shocked I tell you to hear you laud the 80s and 90s guns but I have an 89/90 that seems very good as does and 85 and an 05 that are fine. They are not the same design but. I have not seen the best to compare but these guns to but these do not lack in any way and will shoot minute or better as will the 1894-1994 Centenniel.

[Griff]

Michaux, and Welcome to THE Forum.

I have a VERY late pre-'64 receiver, 2,585,xxx that was never assembled. It is a forged receiver, very deep blue, and all machining (other than contours), is just like all the other pre-'64s I have. I've even test fit both pre- and post- internals, and with the exception of the guides and link, post '64 parts fit... but golly, go figure, with the exception of guides and the link, pre-'64 internal parts fit in the the post-'64s. (And that flies out the window with the very late Angle Eject models... where they went back to a pin and retaining screw for the link pivot!

Edited to add:You can tell any 1964 - 1981 Winchester receiver from any other vintage by simply shining a light down inside the receiver. On the inside, exposed bare receiver (not covered by things like the carrier and guides, you will see a very clear and distinct purple color. Every scintered steel receiver I've looked at has that purple coloring inside... to some extent, even the plated ones... I must admit I can not for certain say that the factory color cased versions like the "Antique" or "Classic" exhibit that same coloring. But, my bone and charcoal CCH receiver I had done, doesn't.

If a post-'64 receiver doesn't exhibit this coloring, it has almost certainly been refinished.

[Michaux]

Well, thanks to all you fine folks this is her. Non original rear sight and extra "varnish" on the stock, Williams peep means I'm missing the two small receiver sight screws. May try to find a set.. Other then that I don't see anything else (but who knows what I'll find when I get it in my hands lol) It'll likely take some honest abuse in my hands but I think it looks to make a fine shooter grade pre '64 '94. Thanks again.

Michaux


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =361275266

[Pete44ru]

.

Ya done good, Michaux !




IMO, while not NIB/pristine, it's looks to be in great condition, with honest wear.



.

[cshold]

Welcome to the forum Michaux.
Awsome handle & an awsome PA. State forest.

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/st ... /index.htm

Thanks; Michaux St. Forest is a beautiful forest (a little crowded lately with all the bikers/hikers/horse riders and four wheelers), but it's where this particular '94 will be carried year round as I do my scouting and walk-a-bouts.

Had a cabin for eight years about a quarter mile south of where the
Appalachian trial crosses Pine Grove Rd. heading into Pine Grove Furnace.
Took a number of deer and loved to fish those little Brookies out of
Mountain Creek.

[Michaux]

Welcome to the forum Michaux.
Awsome handle & an awsome PA. State forest.

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/st ... /index.htm

Thanks; Michaux St. Forest is a beautiful forest (a little crowded lately with all the bikers/hikers/horse riders and four wheelers), but it's where this particular '94 will be carried year round as I do my scouting and walk-a-bouts.

Had a cabin for eight years about a quarter mile south of where the
Appalachian trial crosses Pine Grove Rd. heading into Pine Grove Furnace.
Took a number of deer and loved to fish those little Brookies out of
Mountain Creek.

That's my "home turf" cas. Less then five minutes away. We're off Michaux Rd. And yep, Mountain Creek is a gem to fish for natives in the summer and there's always a big rack buck ghosting around to keep things interesting in deer season.

Michaux

[cshold]

Very cool
Are you close to that cul-de-sac on top the
mountain off Michaux rd.?
I always thought it would be awsome living in one
of those houses.

[Michaux]

Naw...that's actually private ground up there. Nice big $ houses! We're down low on state land off Michaux close to Rt. 233 where the commoners have "shanty" cabins to enjoy.

Muab

[cshold]

*

[Canuck Bob]

Well, thanks to all you fine folks this is her. Non original rear sight and extra "varnish" on the stock, Williams peep means I'm missing the two small receiver sight screws. May try to find a set.....
Michaux

Your rifle is a dandy. It looks exactly the same as my early 50s model. One thing for consideration. Sometime in the 50s I believe they stopped drilling and tapping for the receiver sight.

I think you got a great deal on a nice rifle, welcome. The possible d&t and extra varnish saved you some nice coin.

[Malamute]

[quote="Michaux"]Well, thanks to all you fine folks this is her. Non original rear sight and extra "varnish" on the stock, Williams peep means I'm missing the two small receiver sight screws. May try to find a set.. Other then that I don't see anything else (but who knows what I'll find when I get it in my hands lol) It'll likely take some honest abuse in my hands but I think it looks to make a fine shooter grade pre '64 '94. Thanks again.

Michaux


Do you mean you'd take the receiver sight off?

I've found receiver sights easier to shoot well than barrel sights, I have them on almost everything I have that doesnt have glass.

[Michaux]

Malamute: the receiver sight will surely stay, my eyes ain't what they used to be and I'd probably put one on if it didn't have one. But knowing me, even though it's not very "collectable" and they may be after the fact d&t, I'll try to drum up a set of screws and a proper rear sight and put'm in a drawer just because it is what it is.

Michaux

Oh and cas I've passed your old place more times then I could count, It's a nice one for sure...but too close to 233 for me. And you're right about one thing. If you ever opt for another cabin OWN THE LAND! Dealing with the DCNR can be a real pain.