50 BMG penetration

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:46 am

What's your bet? My PileDriver penetrated 12 Jugs, recently someone got 13 with a little greater velocity.

So what say you, how many jugs will the 50 BMG kill, hmmmmmmmmm ???

Answer to follow after sufficient rumination and conjecture by y'all. Good luck.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:10 pm

OK I'll go for it. I'll guess 23 jugs, unless the FMJ bullet decides it wants to skip out of one.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:33 pm

Somewhere in my murky polish memory I can recall something along the lines
of you need a backstop of at least 29 feet of packed earth. I could very easily be wrong.

Just see if ya can do something to take a change of trajectory into consideration
so ya don't have 700 grains of BMG flyin where ya don't want it.

Oh yea, I just remembered while I was typing that the mythbusters did this at
close range into a pool and the round totally blew apart, so........

Best of luck, and my curiosity is piqued.

GEOFF · Post by **GEOFF** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:36 pm

Griz,

I'm not sure what your piledriver is. I assume you have another post profiling what that is.

I do know this, I fired a tracer out of a 50BMG here at my orchard from around 800 yards into a north facing slope. I failed to account for the fact that the north slope had mud on top of still frozen soil. That tracer went thru about 8" of mud, hit that frozen soil and ricocheted back OUT of the mud and still able to see the trace went UP AND UP AND UP heading slowly toward the valley where there are houses!!!!!! HOLY SMOKE, I GAINED RESPECT FOR THAT ROUND THAT DAY!!!! No harm done but the power left in that tracer round at 800 yards was amazing.

I'm guessing with a FMJ bullet, not an AP round that the .50 BMG should go thru at least 20 of your jugs. I don't even know how big the jugs you are talking about are though.

My guess and I'm sticking with it! 20 JUGS.

Geoff

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:04 pm

Well, since y'all been such good sports, here's the real deal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=375afd5B ... re=related

Stunning isn't it?

For comparison my PileDriver load is Marshall Stanton's 525g bullet over 39g H322. It chronos about 1475fps out of the guide gun that took this shot:

http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv

This has been debated and talked about for a couple of years around these forums. The large meplat slow moving bullet just keeps going and going. Stunning, eh?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:05 pm

No more than 15 jugs .... but I got no money on this.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:22 pm

Doya thing the copper got shed on the first jug?

I would say the steel core went off line and down or maybe cuz it doesn't have
the BC of a lead projectile it just gave up like throwing a styrofoam softball?

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:38 pm

The nitwits on Mythbusters used some thing bullet like an AMax and wondered why it came apart

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:45 pm

Grizz wrote:What's your bet? My PileDriver penetrated 12 Jugs, recently someone got 13 with a little greater velocity.

So what say you, how many jugs will the 50 BMG kill, hmmmmmmmmm ???

Answer to follow after sufficient rumination and conjecture by y'all. Good luck.

I'd say it totally depends on range. Anything closer than 100m is dang near PBR for the .50bmg and wonky things happen at closer than PBR - especially at high velocities.

No good answer.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:45 pm

My service provider doesn't allow youtube, so I can't see that video. Can you tell me what the correct answer was? (I was hoping that the 45-70 with its slower bullet would beat out the 50 BMG).

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:09 pm

5 is the correct answer.

My 45-70 water jugs:
The first two shots were not centered. The third centered and embedded in the 2x6.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:19 pm

I call a foul. The jug types were completely different. Another jug shoot will be required.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:19 pm

5 water jugs for the 50 BMG? Say it ain't so!

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:26 pm

Sorry - don't know - I was watching the girl shoot the machine gun.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:28 pm

Jeeps wrote:Doya thing the copper got shed on the first jug?

I would say the steel core went off line and down or maybe cuz it doesn't have
the BC of a lead projectile it just gave up like throwing a styrofoam softball?

I know it seems that way but I saw one on t.v. where they shot big [?] abt 25 liter jugs and it got about the same horizontal distance.

Another one was mentioned previously where the bullet disintegrated in a swimming pool after a few/couple feet of penetration.

I know it's counter-intuitive. I know the round has better penetration in certain substances and at farther distances. But it's plain that the round can't stand the sudden hydraulic forces of water.

This is why some of us 45/70 cranks feel pretty well equiped in the bear woods with 525g cast bullets moving sorta slow. I used to carry a .338 deer hunting until I realized that it has about the same problem at point blank ranges as the .50 does.

I'm working on a redhawk load of 405g bullet moving around 1000fps as my last ditch get-the-bear-off-me round.

There is a lot of stuff around on this, but the video of the .50 certainly makes ya think eh?

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:35 pm

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:I call a foul. The jug types were completely different. Another jug shoot will be required.

WORKS FOR ME!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:43 pm

KirkD wrote:My service provider doesn't allow youtube, so I can't see that video. Can you tell me what the correct answer was? (I was hoping that the 45-70 with its slower bullet would beat out the 50 BMG).

Kirk,

The .50 seperated and the steel core stopped in the 5th jug.

The 525g 45/70 stopped in the 12th jug.

Says as much or more about the bullets than the caliber. I'm pretty sure if you put a hard cast 700g load in the Barrett and ran it at 1500fps it'd do better than a dozen jugs. But, you never know till you try it.

ole pizen slinger · Post by **ole pizen slinger** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:42 pm

Does this mean my 50 cal Sharps shooting a 725 grain round nose lead slug will penetrate further that a 700 grain slug out of a 50 BMG?
ole pizen slinger

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:48 pm

ole pizen slinger wrote:Does this mean my 50 cal Sharps shooting a 725 grain round nose lead slug will penetrate further that a 700 grain slug out of a 50 BMG?
ole pizen slinger

I think it will. Calls for a test. Line up the jugs and centerpunch 'em. Make sure the camera doesn't get soaked.

I think it might penetrate even better if it were a large meplat flat nose, but that requites another bullet and 20 more jugs.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:56 pm

There you go boys! If you ever have to make a run for it in the middle of a 50 cal hailstorm, strap a bunch of full water jugs to your body and go for it. At least you'll die clean!

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:04 pm

Heres the thing about the 50. I'll give Grizz the road on this 5 jug deal for arguments sake. Heres where the 50 outclasses the 45-70. It has roughly the same 1000yrd tragectory that the 45-70 has at 300yrds. And at 1000 yrds a 700gr projo has roughly the muzzle velocity of a 525gr 45-70. Which means at 1000 yrds it will penetrate more than 12 water jugs accurately. I repeat, accurately. We all know the use of the 45-70 as an artillery piece.

Now, am i gonna shoot water jugs or bears at 1000yrds? No. Am I gonna use a 50BMG at 100yrds? No. I'm gonna use a 45-70 with 560gr hardcast at 1550fps and under 100 yards.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:29 pm

I totally agree with you Frank. The same applies to 338s and 375s and 300s and 270s. Great for what they are designed for, which I agree isn't killing water jugs. But in my mind they all share the same problem at point blank range. And they all give stellar performance doing what they're designed to do.

The 50 BMG is designed for other things and it's not likely you're gonna get jumped by a cape buffalo or grizz while you're shooting it.

The sweet thing about the 45/70 is that it won't fail at point blank range and it will do what IT is designed to do well past my eyesight. That's what's so cool about it.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:38 pm

Hey Grizz, which do you think is going to show a more decisive reaction when it hits a Grizz or Cape Buff point blank? I gauruntee it will be spectacular. It may not leave two holes, but it will be a mess, and that 12,000ft lbs has got to go somewhere.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:37 pm

Grizz wrote:I'm pretty sure if you put a hard cast 700g load in the Barrett and ran it at 1500fps it'd do better than a dozen jugs. But, you never know till you try it.

Someone really HAS to try that...! If any of you have a 50 cal, please post the results!

P.S. I forwarded this thread to the Brady Bunch so they'll know that they really need to have another 'crisis' press release about how these newly available terrorist guns (the .45-70's) with their high-tech (lead core) bullets really must be regulated.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:41 pm

I'm going to have to say that this backs up the penetration tests that say high
velocity is counter productive for penetration.

I've read an awful lot about .458 mag guys getting pretty torqued when a
45-70 man says he can out penetrate them.

But still with the difference between lead and the steel core in water could be
the same as a baseball and styrofoam ball in regular air.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:53 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
Grizz wrote:I'm pretty sure if you put a hard cast 700g load in the Barrett and ran it at 1500fps it'd do better than a dozen jugs. But, you never know till you try it.
Someone really HAS to try that...! If any of you have a 50 cal, please post the results!

P.S. I forwarded this thread to the Brady Bunch so they'll know that they really need to have another 'crisis' press release about how these newly available terrorist guns (the .45-70's) with their high-tech (lead core) bullets really must be regulated.

As long as your going to cut the velocity for the 50 in half, why not up the bullet weight to 1K or better, 1200gr maybe even up to 2K maybe to take advantage of the extra room in the case. If 700gr@1500 will penetrate 12 jugs, 1K ought to penetrate a few more at least.

Thats my new goal, a 2K bullet. Lets see, first open up 50 BMG case to .75. Cast new 2Kgr bullets. Install 3 mercury recoil comps in buttstock, and Xtra large comp from artillery piece on barrel. Mount on tripod. Use sounds of Timothy Treadwell in distress to lure bear in front of rifle

Say, whats the energy of a 2Kgr bullet doing 1500fps. I'm thinking the bear will explode.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:33 pm

It was pretty well known in the 80's Army that the M2 50 BMG will penetrate an M113 Armored personel carrier. That some thick stuff. We were also always told that you could not use it on personel as it was against the Geneva convention, so aim for the enemy's belt buckle

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:51 pm

Obviously the 50 BMG is in a class by itself when compared to our herigage hunting/defense arms.

I think it's important to remember that while the 50 BMG can penetrate some armor and some pretty thick steel and some pretty thick walls and any number of cars, that 45/70 bullet just goes splat when it hits them. Killing jugs compares bullets killing jugs, that's all.

Think about hitting the water with your hand. The harder you hit it, the shallower the penetration and the more your hand hurts. Slow your hand down and apply steady force and you'll get a lot farther.
Something to do with fluid dynamics.

Next time I'm in Alaska I plan to do penetration tests in tidewater where I can recover the bullets at low tide. I've got a place picked out. Great grilling spot too. Throw some crab and halibut and maybe venison on the grill, blast the water target zone, and eat until low water. What's not to like about that?

Happy Good Friday, and Happy Easter Sunday too

Grizz

donw · Post by **donw** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:35 pm

i remember from my army days that a .50 BMG would penetrate .5 of armor plate at 200 yards...it would also penetrate the hull of a M113
APC. (a hard learned lesson from 'nam)

keep in mind, the .50 BMG was developed as an anti-equipment round. it was meant primarily to destroy aircraft and vehicles.

if memory serves correct it's not techinically, (according to the geneva convention) supposed to be used as an anti-personel weapon...

it's strange, too, that water has a way of impeding a bullets travel very quickly as most bullets are useless after penetrating about 12" of water untill you get to those .40 cal and larger rifle/MG projectiles.

i once shot a one gallon jug filled water with a .17HMR from 25 yards and it didn't penetrate both sides of the jug. it just disintegrated and fell in pieces to the bottom of the jug; a lot different than with a .270

all that being said...the .50 BMG is a force to be reckoned with when it comes to pure, unadulrated power; be it used against water jugs or an enemy vehicle.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:20 am

Did we go along with the Geneva convention? I can't remember ATM.

I wanna say we just follow its dictates to show everyone else we aren't ruthless
but if need be we can do anything necessary to assure victory.

Regardless, if there was a squad of people who wanted my guts on a stick and
I had my hands on the handles of Ma-deuce there would only be one reasonable
answer in my mind.

She might have been born in 1921 but she is still one sexy beast.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:17 am

- I wonder if the results have to do with the SPEED OF SOUND IN WATER...?

Once you go from pushing the medium gently aside to having to crash it faster than it will 'naturally' go, it seems like all hell breaks loose.

It would be interesting to see the .50 BMG bullet loaded down to about 1400 fps for the same test or for that matter the .45 cast driven in a SABOT to 3000 fps+ for the same test.

Also what effect the bullet shape has - is meplat a factor?

If they weren't so #@^@ expensive, it would be fun to toy with a .50 BMG rifle. (but then after a while you'd probably 'need' a 20mm so you could experience 'real power'...)

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:05 pm

AJMD429 wrote::idea: :!: - I wonder if the results have to do with the SPEED OF SOUND IN WATER...?

Also what effect the bullet shape has - is meplat a factor?

Interesting thought, but the 45/70 load is supersonic also. Eventually I'll get around to testing my .44 405g subsonic hand gun load and see how it does on jugs.

I think the meplat has a LOT to do with the penetration results of the heavy hard cast bullets we're shooting:

This is the theory of why the 45/70 out-penetrated the 50 BMG.

Again, this is comparing bullets hitting water jugs, nothing more. I believe the values hold for wet newsprint. Maybe someone will try it at the upcoming Linebaugh seminar.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:35 pm

Grizz, that same cavitation bubble technology is supposedly being applied to torpedos. Apparently, they are rocket propelled and rely on a specially sized and formed meplat to form a bubble within which they travel at extremely high speeds.

I would think that a similar (perhaps smaller) meplat on the 50 BMG rounds would have allowed them to travel farther in the water as well.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:33 pm

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:Grizz, that same cavitation bubble technology is supposedly being applied to torpedos. Apparently, they are rocket propelled and rely on a specially sized and formed meplat to form a bubble within which they travel at extremely high speeds.

I would think that a similar (perhaps smaller) meplat on the 50 BMG rounds would have allowed them to travel farther in the water as well.

Thanks Rimfire

I think I read that someone has a supersonic torpedo. Maybe. Is that even possible? Or is it supersonic in water with the lower sound barrier. Or is it? LOL

I wonder about a large meplat and a lower velocity, say impact at half a mile. That might kill the mother-load of jugs.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:21 am

Speed of sound is faster in water, I think

I did see something on torpedoes once and they were using ones with compressed
air in the nose that would come out of little holes in a controlled manner.

It "encased" the torp in a sleeve of bubbles as it swam and seriously cut down
on the water resistance.

50 BMG penetration

50 BMG penetration

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