OT--Controlled Round Feed

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:20 pm

How important--really--is controlled round feed? You read all the time if you're going after dangerous game it's the only type of gun to have. Usually you're talking Mauser or Winchester model 70 when you speak of controlled round feed.

Elgin Gates killed all kinds of game all over the world with his--primarily--300 Weatherby magnum.

Read in the Rifleman about another world-wide hunter who used a Remington model 700, 7mm mag for just about all his hunting.

Was there ever a popular bolt-action rifle that was not reliable? I can't think of one.

Is my Browning A-Bolt chambered for 375 H&H magnum a gun to be trusted when hunting dangerous game? About the cheapest bolt gun in the 375 H&H magnum chambering. Makes me wonder about its reliability.

Don McCullough

Bigahh · Post by **Bigahh** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:36 pm

One sunny, cool day at the local range I got to shooting the breeze with a retired Army vet from Vietnam, his opinion about the controlled round feed was that any Big game hunter does not need it at all. It was only meant for a Soldier to be able to work the action on his rifle while laying on the ground on his back. He stated he never shot any big game animal laying on his back. A push Fed Rifle is much quicker! I still think about those tales he told me that day. Not sure how much water they would hold with a PH in Africa though.

1886 · Post by **1886** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:58 pm

I think Finn Aggard(sp?) used a Win. 70 push feed .458 for years on the Dark Continent with complete confidence and satisfaction. I watched an old rifle hand work the action on his Rem 700 upside down multiple times with complete reliability. One might consider a Sako type extractor though. Controlled cartridge feeding is be useful in preventing feeding issues due to short stroking the action in the heat of the moment. This would be a function of shooter error not action design. No one could deny Mauser's genius though. Given an accomplished, practiced shooter, both should serve quite well. 1886.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:07 pm

In theory, controlled round feed, will keep you from having a double feed, because you have control of the round as it leaves the magazine, and lets just say that you are not thinking clearly, probably excited, and for some reason you push the bolt part way closed on a pushfeed rifle, then back the bolt back out and pickup another round from the magazine.

What you will have is a jam, because the first round probably went into the chamber, and will be followed by the second round that you picked up. This can happen, however, it shouldn't happen as long as you never stop the bolt stroke and back up the bolt as I described. But maybe if one is excited by fear, rage, etc, it could happen. However, if you were shooting a controlled round feed gun, the bullet would still be under the extractor, and would be ejected on the ground if you backed up the bolt, a new round would get fed into the chamber without a jam.

The other advantage of a controlled round feed, is that that big extractor will have a lot more extraction power then the tiny extractor of the Remington 700. The Remington 700's tiny extractor will pop up over a case rim if the case is stuck for some reason, and you will have a gun that is out of commission until you get a rod and knock said case out of the chamber. This has happened to me on a couple of occasions, but it is normally not a problem.

Some people say that a controlled round gun feeds better, I don't agree. I have actually had old army surplus mausers that didn't feed reliabilty. And I have never owned a gun that feed any slicker then a Remington 700 chambered in 375 HH mag.

The U.S. Army likes the 700 action, as I used to know a man who build sniper rifles for the Army, and I believe the M40 was basically a 700 action.

I have both kinds of guns, and after years of use, probably prefer the Winchester pre-64 type action, but I have used Remington 700s for lots of shooting and hunting without any problems. As far as I am concerned the more positive extraction of the big mauser type extractor is the main advantage, but it's only an advantage if you end up with a stuck case in the chamber.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:22 pm

I have had two stuck cases, caused by my lack of attention. One was when I single loaded a .308 win case into a .270 Remington 700. I knew the instant I closed the bolt that something was wrong and I sure am glad I didn't pull the trigger. The tiny extractor slipped off of the rim and I had to knock it out with a cleaning rod. My mistake was having two different calibers on the shooting bench at the same time. A dammed good lesson that fortunately I didn't have to learn the real hard way.

Another time I got a .30-06 round mixed in with my 25-06s. I rammed the 30-06 round into the chamber, but the bolt wouldn't close but it almost did. It was stuck pretty good, but this time I was using a Model 70 pre-64 Classic action. I had to hit the bolt handle pretty hard with my hand to break the round loose, but the big extractor held and pulled the round back out of the chamber and I went on shooting. The problem was in my hurry to get going I grabbed two boxes of shells, but I didn't notice that one box was for the 30-06. Pretty scarry when I thought about it.

mod71alaska · Post by **mod71alaska** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:32 pm

Some good reading on the subject:

Here's the answer to your question right from the field that really puts it in perspective:
http://www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunt ... law_01.htm

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=60181

86er · Post by **86er** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:43 pm

It has been pretty well summed up by the previous posts. In short, controlled feed will prevent most double feeding (usually due to short stroke or double stroking the bolt), and is the best insurance for extraction when climate and conditions are external considerations added to all the usual circumstances.

If you hunt dangerous game as a client, I am sure your PH will have a trustworthy gun, regardless of type. This issue is more important to the PH than the client. Your job is to get one good shot, and maybe another. The PH job is to save a life.

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:30 pm

86er wrote:It has been pretty well summed up by the previous posts. In short, controlled feed will prevent most double feeding (usually due to short stroke or double stroking the bolt), and is the best insurance for extraction when climate and conditions are external considerations added to all the usual circumstances.

If you hunt dangerous game as a client, I am sure your PH will have a trustworthy gun, regardless of type. This issue is more important to the PH than the client. Your job is to get one good shot, and maybe another. The PH job is to save a life.

Same Same....I have a friend in Alaska who is a PH (Brown Bear) and he uses the Pre-64 Model 70 .458.. I learned a lot from that fella when I lived up there. However, I sold my Turn Bolts with the exception of a Pre-64 Model 70 '06. I still hunt up there, but switched over to a Marlin 1895 45-70/457WW Mag....he did too. Infact, He's the one that turned me on to the 457WW Mag... Most kills are made at less than 100 yards. I killed my Grizzly at under 20 yards with a Pre-64 Model 70 .338...put three in the Bear and ejected one on the ground. Glad I had controlled feeding that day...

mod71alaska · Post by **mod71alaska** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:48 pm

Jarhead wrote: ....I killed my Grizzly at under 20 yards with a Pre-64 Model 70 .338...put three in the Bear and ejected one on the ground. Glad I had controlled feeding that day...

How about sharing your bear hunt story with us. I'm sure everyone would like to hear it. I know I would!

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:21 pm

mod71alaska wrote:
Jarhead wrote: ....I killed my Grizzly at under 20 yards with a Pre-64 Model 70 .338...put three in the Bear and ejected one on the ground. Glad I had controlled feeding that day...
How about sharing your bear hunt story with us. I'm sure everyone would like to hear it. I know I would!

Well,

I was up North hunting east of Cantwell, Alaska up the Brushkana Drainage hunting Moose with my friend. After a couple of Days of Hunting
My buddy shot a 45" Bull with three brow tines at dusk. We cleaned and skinned the Moose to let it cool...We were all bloody and it was DARK by the time we got it done, so we covered the moose with a tarp, and took off all our bloody clothes and put them in a hefty garbage bag and placed them away from our Camp to avoid attracting a bear into our tent

Anyway, the next morning, I got up at 0-dark thirty, made some coffee and waited for day light. As soon as I was able, I had my binoculars out and was glassing the area for another bull Moose....I didn't see anything, so I thought I'd head on down to my buddy's Moose kill and start quartering him out. My buddy was still in the sack sleeping.

I walked toward the kill site with the wind in my favor. All of a sudden, I saw something heading my way, but could only see the brush moving. Then a sow Grizzly broke through the brush with a mouth full of Moose guts!

And was standing there looking at me...I had my Pre-64 Model 70 .338's safety in the middle position. Before I could get the safety to the fire position the Grizz charged me. My first shot was at 15-20 yards, second shot at about 5 yards...the bear rolled and circled me...I was so shook up that I ejected the third round on the ground. My fourth and final shot took the Bear through both front shoulders and the scope came back and busted me on the bridge of my nose(bleeding)

My last shot droped the bear like a bad habit! All I could think about during the entire incident was living to see another day. I had a wife and two little girls at the time. I made a bear rug out of her and she hangs on the wall in my living room with the rest of my critters.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:19 am

Now that's scary! NOT what I want to see.

I have never owned a CRF rifle, but I recently read of one other advantage, I have never thought about before. When in close proximity to game, and the chamber is empty, they say the CRF rifle can chamber a round more quietly than push feed. Makes sense, as mine push feed "pops" the cartridge out of the magazine and up towards the chamber, just a bit noisy.

jbm1968 · Post by **jbm1968** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:00 am

I have both but prefer the Mauser Style. Just one thing less to go wrong. That being said, before I reverted the the lever gun for most of my shooting I carried a M700 Mountain Rifle .280 Remington for years and NEVER had a problem. Still, of my 4 favorite bolt rifles, 3 are Mauser Style Actions (1 custom Mauser 30-06, 1 pre-64 M-70 30-06 and 1 Mark X .458 Win Mag) and the afore mentioned Remington. Based off my experiences with the Mountain Rifle I could carry a .416 Remington M-700 in Africa and not really be concerned with the rifle as I would have other things to occupy my mind. How's that for a Non-Answer!!!

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:44 am

Considering our military uses the model 700 Remington--or at least did for years for sniping--it has to have been proven to be very reliable.

I believe they now use a much modified Remington but still mostly model 700.

I'm sure others in this group know much more about our military's sniper guns and be glad to hear what they have to say.

Can you think of a gun that would demand more reliability than a sniper gun? Fact is super reliability is required of all guns used by our military. These are truely "life is on the line" guns !

By the way: I've read a little about our snipers. How would YOU like to go into enemy territory, during the night, with your spotter--and, do it many times?

Don McCullough

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:20 am

Jarhead wrote:
mod71alaska wrote:
Jarhead wrote: ....I killed my Grizzly at under 20 yards with a Pre-64 Model 70 .338...put three in the Bear and ejected one on the ground. Glad I had controlled feeding that day...
How about sharing your bear hunt story with us. I'm sure everyone would like to hear it. I know I would!
Well,

I was up North hunting east of Cantwell, Alaska up the Brushkana Drainage hunting Moose with my friend. After a couple of Days of Hunting
My buddy shot a 45" Bull with three brow tines at dusk. We cleaned and skinned the Moose to let it cool...We were all bloody and it was DARK by the time we got it done, so we covered the moose with a tarp, and took off all our bloody clothes and put them in a hefty garbage bag and placed them away from our Camp to avoid attracting a bear into our tent

Anyway, the next morning, I got up at 0-dark thirty, made some coffee and waited for day light. As soon as I was able, I had my binoculars out and was glassing the area for another bull Moose....I didn't see anything, so I thought I'd head on down to my buddy's Moose kill and start quartering him out. My buddy was still in the sack sleeping.

I walked toward the kill site with the wind in my favor. All of a sudden, I saw something heading my way, but could only see the brush moving. Then a sow Grizzly broke through the brush with a mouth full of Moose guts! And was standing there looking at me...I had my Pre-64 Model 70 .338's safety in the middle position. Before I could get the safety to the fire position the Grizz charged me. My first shot was at 15-20 yards, second shot at about 5 yards...the bear rolled and circled me...I was so shook up that I ejected the third round on the ground. My fourth and final shot took the Bear through both front shoulders and the scope came back and busted me on the bridge of my nose(bleeding)

My last shot droped the bear like a bad habit! All I could think about during the entire incident was living to see another day. I had a wife and two little girls at the time. I made a bear rug out of her and she hangs on the wall in my living room with the rest of my critters.

There's more to the story

I was not hunting with my PH friend but with someone else on the above described hunt. After I shot the bear my buddy woke up and came down to the kill site. The brush stated moving again, but this time it turned out to be some "Camp Robbers" Birds who were also eating off the gut pile. This scared my buddy, so he took off for the tent and hid like a little girl. He would not come out!

And he left me hanging...needless to say, I never hunted with him again. I could not believe his behavior...he was scared to death and I'm the one who shot the bear!

Anyway, I skined the bear, finished quartering the Moose and packed up camp to leave the bush that day. Moral of the story, be careful who you hunt with.

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:23 am

getitdone1 wrote:Considering our military uses the model 700 Remington--or at least did for years for sniping--it has to have been proven to be very reliable.

I believe they now use a much modified Remington but still mostly model 700.

I'm sure others in this group know much more about our military's sniper guns and be glad to hear what they have to say.

Can you think of a gun that would demand more reliability than a sniper gun? Fact is super reliability is required of all guns used by our military. These are truely "life is on the line" guns !

By the way: I've read a little about our snipers. How would YOU like to go into enemy territory, during the night, with your spotter--and, do it many times?

Don McCullough

No problem....In Nam the Marine "scout snipers" used a pre-64 model 70 06 and some had a BDL Remington in '06....I prefer the Pre-64. I am going to my 3/5 reunion in May and will be drinking beer with some 5th Marine Scout Snipers...looking forward to seeing them again.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:00 am

Jarhead, that's a hell of a story. If it were me, I'd also have to admit to a change of clothes.

Seems to me the CRF is more needed by the hunter on his first African buffalo hunt or Alaskan bear hunt, than someone who has done it many times and is cool about it. The latter can use anything they are good with.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:46 pm

I think it boils down to personal preference and I prefer the features Mr. Paul Mauser put in his 1898 model including CRF, claw extractor, and 3 position safety, classic features on a classic rifle regardless of if they are necessary or not. My 30-06 is a post-64 model 70 with the only one of those 3 features being the 3 position safety but I like it and keep because it was a gift from my father-in-law. My other 30-06 is a 1903 Springfield recently inherited from my Dad this rifle having the 3 features I like in a bolt gun. If I ever have the urge and money to by another bolt gun it will have these features and be chambered in 375 H&H or 9.3 x 62.

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:15 pm

I'm going to bring this thread on-topic for the forum, but slightly off topic... from the topic!

Given all the talk on this forum about use of leverguns for personal defense, I am surprised at the lack of attention given this subject (CRF) as it applies to them.

I was pleasantly surprised a while back to note that the Savage 99 action, while not preventing you from short-stroking (I don't think) will adequately capture a cartridge and chamber it reliably while held at any angle. I posted about this and someone (don't recall who) replied that their Win 94 will too.

At the time I had never owned a 94, but now I do and I can attest to this feature. It is something that my Marlin 1894C won't do, and again... when it comes to use of leverguns for personal defense I feel that the ability to work the action and know that your rifle won't jam if held at an odd angle is significant.

Clearly, it doesn't make a lot of difference (or even any) for a hunting rifle. However guns are tools, and the mark of a good tool is utility under a wide variety of circumstances.

Given a choice between a levergun that will restrict the movement of a cartridge while it is being chambered so that the rifle may be held in any position and a levergun that won't...... I'll take the first kind any time.

Haycock