A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
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- KirkD
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A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
At Old Savage's request, here are the results of my experimentation. Bottom line: I've found a very nice, accurate smokeless load that uses no filler and gives me original black powder ballistics.
I have been giving cotton filler a try in various calibers but the main problem is to seat the bullet without some of the cotton getting caught between the base of the bullet and the case, causing a slight bulge at that point. I a little nervous about that, as the bulge plus the filler getting jammed forward during firing might cause a stress concentration at that point. Maybe it wouldn’t be a problem, given Sherman Bell’s tests, but with vintage Winchesters and non-nickel steel, I don’t want to take a chance. I would carefully push the cotton down in the case so that it was just about where the base of the bullet would be, but in spite of my pains, it would still get caught on a regular basis. So having played around with cotton filler for about half a year, I’m finished with it and would not recommend it anymore.
I really want to get my hands on some Swiss black powder, but I also wanted to develop a no-filler, smokeless load that would give original black powder ballistics and be accurate.
My first load was 17 grains of 5744 with a standard Winchester rifle primer. The results were five-shot groups at 100 yards that were about an inch wide but 2 & ½” tall. With no filler, even 5744 has a certain amount of position sensitivity, and the difference in extreme spread in velocity results in a bit of a vertical spread at the target. Here’s a photo of one of the targets with this load ….
Standard Winchester Rifle primer:
It occurred to me that if I used a Winchester Magnum Rifle primer with the same load (17 grains of 5744), I might get more complete and consistent burning of the powder. I loaded up 10 rounds and shot two, five-shot groups at 100 yards. My theory seemed to be correct and I got excellent groups. Here’s a photo of one of the targets, a five shot group of 1 & 1/4” at 100 yards.
Winchester Magnum Rifle Primer:
I had some standard Remington primers for large rifle so tried them as well with the same load (17 grains of 5744). The groups were slightly tighter than with the Winchester standard rifle primers, but still had greater vertical spread than with the Winchester Magnum Primers. Here’s a photo of one of the groups using the Remington primers, five shots at 2 & 3/16” at 100 yards …
Remington Rifle Primers:
My 38-55 is a Winchester Model 1894 and it was shipped in 1897. It still has its original tang sight, which is what I’ve been using for all this shooting. Here’s a photo of the tang sight.
For those who might want a faster load, I tried 19 grains of 5744 with a standard Winchester rifle primer which chronographed at 1,452 fps. This load seemed to give more consistent burning without having to resort to the Magnum primer, although there is still some slight vertical spread. Here’s a photo of one of the targets, a five-shot group of 1 & 9/16” at 100 yards.
19 grains of 5744 with standard Winchester rifle primer for 1,452 fps:
Conclusion: My new load is 17 grains of 5744 with a Winchester Magnum Rifle primer for 1,307 fps with a 262 grain gas checked Accurate cast bullet sized to .380. No more filler in my 38-55 loads.
I have been giving cotton filler a try in various calibers but the main problem is to seat the bullet without some of the cotton getting caught between the base of the bullet and the case, causing a slight bulge at that point. I a little nervous about that, as the bulge plus the filler getting jammed forward during firing might cause a stress concentration at that point. Maybe it wouldn’t be a problem, given Sherman Bell’s tests, but with vintage Winchesters and non-nickel steel, I don’t want to take a chance. I would carefully push the cotton down in the case so that it was just about where the base of the bullet would be, but in spite of my pains, it would still get caught on a regular basis. So having played around with cotton filler for about half a year, I’m finished with it and would not recommend it anymore.
I really want to get my hands on some Swiss black powder, but I also wanted to develop a no-filler, smokeless load that would give original black powder ballistics and be accurate.
My first load was 17 grains of 5744 with a standard Winchester rifle primer. The results were five-shot groups at 100 yards that were about an inch wide but 2 & ½” tall. With no filler, even 5744 has a certain amount of position sensitivity, and the difference in extreme spread in velocity results in a bit of a vertical spread at the target. Here’s a photo of one of the targets with this load ….
Standard Winchester Rifle primer:
It occurred to me that if I used a Winchester Magnum Rifle primer with the same load (17 grains of 5744), I might get more complete and consistent burning of the powder. I loaded up 10 rounds and shot two, five-shot groups at 100 yards. My theory seemed to be correct and I got excellent groups. Here’s a photo of one of the targets, a five shot group of 1 & 1/4” at 100 yards.
Winchester Magnum Rifle Primer:
I had some standard Remington primers for large rifle so tried them as well with the same load (17 grains of 5744). The groups were slightly tighter than with the Winchester standard rifle primers, but still had greater vertical spread than with the Winchester Magnum Primers. Here’s a photo of one of the groups using the Remington primers, five shots at 2 & 3/16” at 100 yards …
Remington Rifle Primers:
My 38-55 is a Winchester Model 1894 and it was shipped in 1897. It still has its original tang sight, which is what I’ve been using for all this shooting. Here’s a photo of the tang sight.
For those who might want a faster load, I tried 19 grains of 5744 with a standard Winchester rifle primer which chronographed at 1,452 fps. This load seemed to give more consistent burning without having to resort to the Magnum primer, although there is still some slight vertical spread. Here’s a photo of one of the targets, a five-shot group of 1 & 9/16” at 100 yards.
19 grains of 5744 with standard Winchester rifle primer for 1,452 fps:
Conclusion: My new load is 17 grains of 5744 with a Winchester Magnum Rifle primer for 1,307 fps with a 262 grain gas checked Accurate cast bullet sized to .380. No more filler in my 38-55 loads.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
- Shasta
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Great report as usual Kirk.
Does your load leave much unburned powder particles in the rifle? When I was experimenting with 5744 in several of my rifles of various calibers I got good groups but it left an awful lot of residue in the gun, to the point of causing denting in some extracted empty casings, plus it was getting down into the action. Perhaps I need to try your magnum primer idea.
SHASTA
Does your load leave much unburned powder particles in the rifle? When I was experimenting with 5744 in several of my rifles of various calibers I got good groups but it left an awful lot of residue in the gun, to the point of causing denting in some extracted empty casings, plus it was getting down into the action. Perhaps I need to try your magnum primer idea.
SHASTA
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- Old Savage
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Nice work Kirk. Just curious - what does your best load with this rifle look like on targets?
- Old Ironsights
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
When I get back to the house on Sun I'll look up the Lyman #7 (maybe L#5...) 38-55 load that uses 2400 & no buffer.
It's the load I use in my 9.3x72R Drilling barrel under a 200gr soft-cast WFN...
Here"s a thread that looks about right. http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=39284
And one on Castboolits:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... r-Required
It's the load I use in my 9.3x72R Drilling barrel under a 200gr soft-cast WFN...
Here"s a thread that looks about right. http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=39284
And one on Castboolits:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... r-Required
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מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
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- Borregos
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Great report Kirk, you may have saved me a lot of work
Pete
Sometimes I wonder if it is worthwhile gnawing through the leather straps to get up in the morning..................
Sometimes I wonder if it is worthwhile gnawing through the leather straps to get up in the morning..................
Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
A result. You can shoot alot better than me Kirk.
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
That is some Mighty Fine shootin,there Pard. ...Dusty
- KirkD
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
That would be the second one from the top, the one with the Winchester Magnum PrimerOld Savage wrote:Nice work Kirk. Just curious - what does your best load with this rifle look like on targets?
Shasta: There are still powder grains up the bore, but maybe about only half as much.
Old Ironsights: I find that 2400 gives me quite a large extreme spread in velocity. IMR 4227 is the worst I have found, sometimes giving me a difference of 200 fps depending whether the powder is fore or aft. Not sure why. I'm always interested in extreme spread for loads, since when hunting I might not think to tilt the rifle up (or down) before firing. I am thinking of seeing what IMR 3031 will do. That should fill the case quite a bit more, although I'm already getting a tiny bit of soot around the outside of the case mouth down about 3/4". IMR 3031 will have a lot lower pressure, so might give me more soot. Still, I won't know until I've tried it.
Borregos: I don't know why I never thought of using Mag Primers before. It would certainly be worth a try in your rifle.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Excellent research and the Facts speak for themselves. Good Job and an Excellent post.
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Have you thought about trying a caseful of IMR4831? Shot 2lbs of it under a Lee 170gr FP's in the 30/30. Also used it in 308 and 150gr SPP, that loads chrono 2250fps out of a 22" Handi-rifle.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres
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250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Yes, great report and some fine shootin.
- Sixgun
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Its all I have ever used. 20 grains of 5744 works in the 30-30, 32 spl. and 38-55.
In addition to being slightly position sensitive, (better than anything else) you will also lose velocity when the weather gets cold.. IIRC about 100 fps from 80 down to 30.-----------6
Magnum primers have never done anything for me. It just's that you may have lucked out. The most important loading procedure is a very firm and heavy crimp with 5744.
In addition to being slightly position sensitive, (better than anything else) you will also lose velocity when the weather gets cold.. IIRC about 100 fps from 80 down to 30.-----------6
Magnum primers have never done anything for me. It just's that you may have lucked out. The most important loading procedure is a very firm and heavy crimp with 5744.
Last edited by Sixgun on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- rusty gunns
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Kirk,
You jut saved a bunch of us a whole lot of experimentation. Thank you, my friend.
I've been using 17 grains of 5744, but never thought to go to magnum primers. I bet that will tighten up my groups as well.
Hell, keep this up and I won't have any more excuses for large groups.
Up until now, I complain about the rifle. I tell folks. "I hate this thing. The darn rifle shoots right where it's pointen when you pull the trigger!"
But I will now, Pardner...
Thanks again.
You jut saved a bunch of us a whole lot of experimentation. Thank you, my friend.
I've been using 17 grains of 5744, but never thought to go to magnum primers. I bet that will tighten up my groups as well.
Hell, keep this up and I won't have any more excuses for large groups.
Up until now, I complain about the rifle. I tell folks. "I hate this thing. The darn rifle shoots right where it's pointen when you pull the trigger!"
But I will now, Pardner...
Thanks again.
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- Old Savage
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Kirk, I guess what I was asking is have you gotten any better groups with this rifle with any of your other shooting with it? And if so what were they?
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Very nice report Kirk, very informative.
I understand exactly what you mean about the cotton string in the neck. It can't possibly raise pressures to any significant degree. But if that was my Winchester, I would do just as you are, possible or not. Too sweet of a rifle to risk.
Sixgun has a point about lower temps and losing velocity. It'll probably be colder then.
Wish you lived closer, I'd give you a pound of Swiss. I bet that'd be a hoot.
Cat
I understand exactly what you mean about the cotton string in the neck. It can't possibly raise pressures to any significant degree. But if that was my Winchester, I would do just as you are, possible or not. Too sweet of a rifle to risk.
Sixgun has a point about lower temps and losing velocity. It'll probably be colder then.
Wish you lived closer, I'd give you a pound of Swiss. I bet that'd be a hoot.
Cat
- KirkD
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Sixgun, magnum primers may not have made much difference because of your hotter load of 5744. My 19 grains of 5744 with just a standard primer gave pretty small groups and a mag primer might not have much improvement . Your 20 grain load should be even better. I don't think I lucked out with the mag primers. I shot another five-shot group as well with the mag primers and when the bullseyes were superimposed for the two groups, 9 shots went into 1 & 1/2". The 10th was just sloppy shooting on my part. I never got close to that with normal primers with with 17 grains.Sixgun wrote:Its all I have ever used. 20 grains of 5744 works in the 30-30, 32 spl. and 38-55. ....
Magnum primers have never done anything for me. It just's that you may have lucked out. The most important loading procedure is a very firm and heavy crimp with 5744.
OS: Prior to using the mag primer, my tightest groups were 16 grains of 5744 plus cotton filler, which gave five-shot groups at 100 yards of around 1 & 3/4".
Catshooter: I've noticed the same thing as well, regarding cooler temperatures and slower velocities. I hope to pick up some Swiss in my travels this summer.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
- Old Ironsights
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
I'm willing to sacrifice a "muzzle up" presentation (which lowers ES) to not have to keep a dozen powders on hand.
2400 works in everything I shoot (except 45acp). The consolidated supply chain is worth presentation adjustments...
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
- Old Savage
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
OK so we know that the rifle is capable of that an that is the target group to match. I wonder if someone else were to try to duplicate your filler procedure if that would be a variable and how much.
Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
You might try a few of the 19gr loads w/magnum primers and just see what happens.
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- Old Savage
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Why would we think magnum primers would be necessary? What is to be gained?
- KirkD
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
The 19 grain loads gave me a velocity well over the original velocity of the 38-55 cartridge back in the 1890's. For the sake of my original Model 1894, I want to stay down around 1,300 fps.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Kirk,
In your travels this summer are you coming to South Dakota?
Cat
In your travels this summer are you coming to South Dakota?
Cat
- KirkD
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Wish I were but the closest will be Minnisota the we will angle up north through awinnipeg and on to Edmonton Alberta for a big family reunion hootenanny-whoop up.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
Well Minneeeesota borders SD but if you're way up North, that's a ways from southwestern SD. Pity. I'd be glad to lay a pound of Swiss FF or FFFG on ya. I bet it'd perform very well in your lovely Winchester. Ah well.
Cat
Cat
- KirkD
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Re: A good no-filler load for my vintage 38-55
I sure appreciate the offer but I'll be up in northern Minnesota. I'll be checking out the Swiss supply at a few stores that I will be passing near. I'm pretty sure I'll be near at least one that sells it.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/