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Slick13 wrote: ..... hopefully the intimidation factor of the shotgun comes into play and you never need to actually pull the trigger....
~Michael
The "intimidation factor" as you put will either work with any firearm or with none. If a person isn't intimidated when you pull a .22 pistol they won't be with the shotgun.
Every time I experienced a "close-range interpersonal confrontation" I did not care what the person was armed with. The fact they had a firearm was enough.
While it is there to some extent, please do not rely on any intimidation factor.
(and I know you were not Michael ... as you put it "hopefully" ...)
Yep, don't count on anything intimidating anyone. Be prepared and armed for the worst.
I think/hope my reaction if confronted or cornered by someome wielding a small caliber pistol would be fight. I know my reaction if confronted by someone with a shotgun (regardless of gauge) would be flight!
Well fortunately, I have never had to shoot anyone, but I have had three confortations, in which I was armed, once with a Marlin 30/30, once with a Browning BLR with a scope on it, and once with a Colt Lightweight Commander 45ACP.
No shots were ever fired, in those siduations, and in the confortation with the Light Weight Commander, which was in my belt, with a shirt tail hiding it, the perp never even saw my gun, but before it was over, he knew I was armed and more then willing to shoot him. And that was all he needed to know, before he decided to vacate.
So, personally, I believe that based on those siduations, just having a gun, and persenting youself in a fashion that leaves little doubt that you can and will kill them if needed is more important then what kind of gun you have, as long as you are capable of using it, effectively. And if that don't impress them, then you better be ready to use that gun, whatever kind it is.
everyone seems to forget that the rifle is easier to hit with in a stressful situation than a handgun. Having seen what handguns and shot guns do to the human body I am amazed at how resilient we are. That being said I have never cared for a pt that got shot with a center fire rifle and lived. Mainly 38'a.9mm. and 12 g with birdshot. May be due to the fact that not to many folks get shot with rifles in Dallas Tx.
That being said I would give the standard recommendation for home defense I always give. To buy a pump shotgun use buckshot and practice enough to be confident if the situation ever arrives that you have to defend your live or that of your love ones.
"The shotgun is the ne plus ultra of manstoppers. No doubt you have heard a lot of nonsense about the lethality of "assault rifles" and "sub-machine guns" and the like. The fact is that the shotgun is the most effective firearm for short-range personal defense. For example: an Uzi or Heckler & Koch sub-machine gun has about 340 ft-lbs. of impact energy - a 12 gauge shotgun has 2500 to 3100 ft-lbs. of impact energy.
The shotgun is not a magic weapon that will slay all foes. Like all other guns, it must be aimed at a specific target. Buckshot loads will not "sweep" a room. "Close" still only counts in horseshoes. Aim your shotgun from the shoulder (like a rifle) if you intend to hit an aggressor."
and
"If you are new to shotgunning and considering getting one for self-defense I strongly urge you to buy the reliable and reasonably-priced "Mossberg 500 Special Purpose" 18.5" barrel 20 gauge pump shotgun (catalog #50451). This tried-and-true workhorse is the standard shotgun of the U.S. Armed Forces and costs a little over $200. You'll be much happier with the lighter-kicking 20 gauge than the 12 gauge version used by the military, and - most importantly - you'll shoot the 20 more accurately and rapidly.
For an in-depth look at the 20-versus-12 gauge issue I recommend all shotgun owners (and potential shotgun owners) read 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun' by Massad Ayoob. Perhaps I am beginning to sound like a broken record on the theme of Ayoob's books, but once you've read them you'll understand why I recommend them so highly (and repeatedly). Note: Ayoob dislikes the 20 gauge Remington 870 pump shotgun and recommends you choose the Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge for general self-defense and home-defense use. So do I."
"A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people"
-The Declaration of Independence
"The shotgun is the ne plus ultra of manstoppers. No doubt you have heard a lot of nonsense about the lethality of "assault rifles" and "sub-machine guns" and the like. The fact is that the shotgun is the most effective firearm for short-range personal defense. For example: an Uzi or Heckler & Koch sub-machine gun has about 340 ft-lbs. of impact energy - a 12 gauge shotgun has 2500 to 3100 ft-lbs. of impact energy.
The shotgun is not a magic weapon that will slay all foes. Like all other guns, it must be aimed at a specific target. Buckshot loads will not "sweep" a room. "Close" still only counts in horseshoes. Aim your shotgun from the shoulder (like a rifle) if you intend to hit an aggressor."
and
"If you are new to shotgunning and considering getting one for self-defense I strongly urge you to buy the reliable and reasonably-priced "Mossberg 500 Special Purpose" 18.5" barrel 20 gauge pump shotgun (catalog #50451). This tried-and-true workhorse is the standard shotgun of the U.S. Armed Forces and costs a little over $200. You'll be much happier with the lighter-kicking 20 gauge than the 12 gauge version used by the military, and - most importantly - you'll shoot the 20 more accurately and rapidly.
For an in-depth look at the 20-versus-12 gauge issue I recommend all shotgun owners (and potential shotgun owners) read 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun' by Massad Ayoob. Perhaps I am beginning to sound like a broken record on the theme of Ayoob's books, but once you've read them you'll understand why I recommend them so highly (and repeatedly). Note: Ayoob dislikes the 20 gauge Remington 870 pump shotgun and recommends you choose the Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge for general self-defense and home-defense use. So do I."
I think Ayoob liked the top tang safety of the Mossberg, over the crossbolt safety of the 870. I tend to agree with him in regard. However, for my personal choice, I keep a 12ga Browning A5 loaded with OO Buck, mostly because I have shot it so many thousands of rounds without a malfuction that I trust it more the the average pump, and I have seen plenty of malfuctions with pumps, on the range, espacally Mossbergs to ever trust one over my A5 auto.
....Note: Ayoob dislikes the 20 gauge Remington 870 pump shotgun and recommends you choose the Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge for general self-defense and home-defense use. So do I."
I guess that's just one more place where we disagree. I have seen more Mossy 500's, in .410 & 20 gauge, with feed problems than all other pumps combined. I've got one little Dept that I qualify that has some 870's that are at least 40 years old; they have been left in cars w/leaky trunk seals, rusted over, electroless-nickeled, rebuilt 2-3 times and run with nothing but slugs & buck for their whole lives. They still work and shoot to the sights. I don't know how a pump gun can get any better than that.
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.
My preference a home defense weapon is for a handgun; IF the need is to defend myself or family INSIDE our home. In close quarters, like the confines of a house, I don't want any appreciable barrel length to hinder or impede my movements. A shotgun or a rifle will be slower to swing and react to changing conditions. Having done hundreds of "house clearing" actions in response to calls, I have not, nor do I recall seeing any other law enforcement use a long gun. I do not ever recall having any tactican recommend doing so with a long gun; either shot or rifle. The largest room in my house is about 25' across; any handgun will be as accurate as a shotgun, and will allow me the appropriate use of any cover. To effectively use a shotgun or rifle, you have to have both hands and part of your torso in line with same, whereas with a handgun, you can avail yourself of more cover, with less exposure to return fire.
My PDW (personal defense weapon) is either a Combat Commander in .45ACP, or my S&W Mdl 65. Both are loaded, I prefer the S&W, but I like the CC as a backup.
Now, for defense of my property against would be intruders, I also have a Win 94 in .30-30 or two loaded... with 125gr. HPs. And a couple loaded with 150gr pills.
And as for reloads, they are what I shoot the most and have the most of; I have the most confidence in, and given the opportunity to keep the intruders at bay; I'll not hesitate to use the tools at hand. If some slimeball (not an all encompassing adjective) lawyer wishes to take me to task for doing so, I'll thank the good Lord for the opportunity to be present.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
If some slimeball (not an all encompassing adjective) lawyer wishes to take me to task for doing so, I'll thank the good Lord for the opportunity to be present.
I recently had a close family friend, not a sport shooter, ask for recommendations on home defense guns. I tried to answer completely but succinctly.
Frankly, if it is all you have then use the .30-30, it isn't like you'll be shooting it a lot in this application but I think there are better choices.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
"You'll be much happier with the lighter-kicking 20 gauge than the 12 gauge version used by the military, and - most importantly - you'll shoot the 20 more accurately and rapidly."
My experience with 20 ga. guns is their light weight means they kick nearly as hard as a 12 ga.
mescalero1 wrote:Sarge,
Did you happen to notice if there was a difference between single action bar or dual action bar models?
I'm pretty sure I've had both; I bought several for 'kid guns' over the years. The problem wasn't binding if the action, though; it was the shell catch that retains shells in the mag, and releases them upon racking the gun. I've seen several of the smaller gauge Mossy's now that would release two shells at a time when the action was racked.
I want to say they did it more with Federal shells than WW's, but it's been a while so don't hold me to that. These were guns from 10-15 years ago, and were usually purchased "used-like new" with a very few rounds through them. I didn't take empirical data notes and my 'solution' was to simply stop buying them. The new ones may indeed be better, but it soured me on small-gauge Mossys. I never saw any such problems with the scores of 870s, in any gauge, that have passed through my hands over 30 years.
PS- Slick is right. I'd rather shoot a low-brass 12 than a 20, any day.
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.
I find this post very interesting. Unfortunately, I can't comment on the 30/30 as a home defense gun but a certain lady I know wants a .410 pump action for home defence (not that that's allowed over here) She has already aquired my Rossi 28GA and my son's 20GA Baikal but she prefers the look of my Remington 870 28GA. Now, she sure ain't getting that, so I suggested she traded the Rossi and Baikal for a .410 Mossberg BUT if they are not as reliable as a Remington then there is only one way to go.
Thanks for the heads up and sorry to hijack this interesting post!
Whatever you do always give 100%........... unless you are donating blood.
Actually, a good side by side, hammer gun, (coach gun), make a pretty good home defense gun. If the gun is made right, and not all of them are.
You can keep it loaded with the hammers on halfcock, and tape the muzzle end of the barrels so a dirt dobber can't build a nest in it, and it can sit for 20yrs and will probably still work if the need arises. Add a stock ammo cuff to it, and you will even have a couple of reloads, but you probably won't ever need them. Two shots of buckshot will probably end most home intrusions.
And some of the new coach guns even have safetys on them, which normally I don't like, but for some it might have merrit. Also, if the gun is made right, and some are not, lets say that you get buggered and you cock the hammers back, then need to make the gun safe again, well, many an accident has happened when some one who does not use a double trigger gun much, puts his thumb on one hammer and pulls the other trigger. This can be avoided by simply breaking the action open and then lowering the hammers. But like I said, some guns won't allow you to do that, as the lever latch, hits the right hammer before the gun breaks open. Of course the guns with safetys can be put on safe.
THe FBI did a study some years back concerning the use of pistol caliber subguns vs. AR-15 in .223. The result was the .223 out performed every pistol caliber carbine in all aspects. In a home situation the 55 grain hollow point out of a 15 inch barrel penetrated less sheet rock than 9mm, 10mm, .40 s&w etc... Also the .223 penetrates body armor where none of the handgun rounds do. During the test they shot a watermelon at 15 feet and placed a sheetrock behind. There was no overpenetration. Now the great drawback to this is that this is a very loud round. This is why you see all the police agencies leaving the MP-5 and such and carry an AR-15. You can now get frangible rounds that will break up in the first sheet rock but will penetrate a body for maximum damage.
Having said that, the .357 is historically the best "One shot stop" pistol caliber made in the Federal 125 grain Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point. Every handgun round since going to the Semi-Auto Pistol has tried to find this performance thus the .357 Sig Caliber. In a lever action carbine this round would be most devistating while being somewhat less of an "overpenetration" concern.
I know the question was about 30-30 but just thought i would add some alternatives.
Rebel1972 wrote:Tom Horn thought the 30-30 was quite adequate.And he didn't worry too much about the consequences either.
I think tom Horn got convicted of shooting with a 45/90 and he said that the shot that he was convicted of could not have been made And there is a good chance that the 30/30 wasn't even in exisstance then!
"During the course of conversations over two days, Horn allegedly admitted that he killed Nickell with his Winchester Model 1894 30-30 rifle and placed a stone under Nickell's head as his "sign." Horn told LeFors that he, Horn, had been paid in advance and received $2,100 for killing three men and taking five shots at another." http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/horn2.html I got the quote from this website
Last edited by Rebel1972 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bobbyjack wrote:I think tom Horn got convicted of shooting with a 45/90 and he said that the shot that he was convicted of could not have been made And there is a good chance that the 30/30 wasn't even in exisstance then!
bob
Sorry Bobbyjack .. You are mistaken on all counts. The .30-30 had been manufactured for a few years by then and was extremely popular.
JimT wrote:Ji - Does Hawaii have a "castle doctrine" law?
Hawaii has the "You're screwed if you harm a drug addict trying to murder your family because he's a poor victim of society" law.
Hawaii is a one party state dominated by liberal Dems, wish I could escape but now i'm farther from doing that than ever before. ARGH.
She has already aquired my Rossi 28GA and my son's 20GA Baikal but she prefers the look of my Remington 870 28GA. Now, she sure ain't getting that, so I suggested she traded the Rossi and Baikal for a .410 Mossberg BUT if they are not as reliable as a Remington then there is only one way to go. 
