Question on primers and a "different" BP reloading question

[awp101]

OK besides having the right sized primer for the cartridge, how critical is it use the exact primer or bullet brand listed in a reloading manual?

I picked up some primers a couple of days ago (4K to be exact-ish), all Winchester. When I got home, I found my Sierra manual doesn't list Winchester for any of the calibers I plan on reloading (.38/.357, 7x57, .45-70, .30-06, etc). The Lee Modern Reloading (2d Ed) doesn't either. After thinking about it, I realized the odds of my using ONLY Sierra bullets would be slim and none.

So, can primer and bullet brands be safely interchanged providing they are the same size/type for primers and correct dimension and weight for the bullets? Common sense tells me that in general it should be OK but my paranoia knows no bounds when it comes to keeping my parts arranged in their current location...

Now for the "different" BP question. I have a plan to reload a modern caliber with BP but I won't go into any more detail until I find out if the plan to get the rifle pans out first (OK, that's two plans ). Here's my question: can I pull the bullet of the factory loaded rounds, dump the smokeless, reload with BP (using the correct data) and reseat the jacketed bullet without creating issues? Or to put it another way, do BP and jacketed bullets play well together?

I thought of this since my interest in the cartridge is more about the BP potential rather than it's smokeless potential. My initial thought was to buy a box of ammo and shoot it up for the brass but then I got to wondering why waste the bullet while making empties if I can use it in the BP load.

I realize this is all pretty vague without knowing the caliber involved but I'm trying to get my ducks all in a row before getting myself (or anyone else here) all hot and bothered....

Thanks!

[Don McDowell]

Primer brand doesn't usually make that much difference, but when in doubt start low and work up.

The blackpowder thing may or may not work, depends alot on the caliber and twist, and what "F" size of powder you're using. Things will likely go a bunch better if instead of using the jacketed bullets , replace those with a cast bullet with a soft lube.
But the only way you'll really know for sure is to try it.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Whenever I change a primer brand I drop back to starting loads and work up again. Same with bullet brands.

A recent article in Handloader magazine shows a revolver load that jumped 1,300 PSI (IIRC)in pressure by just changing from brand A standard primer to brand B Magnum primer.

Most modern rifle cartridges don`t do very well using BP. And always the proper load will be to fill the case full enough so there will be a little compression on the powder when the bullet is seated.
You will find that fouling will most likely cause the 3rd. or 4thround to be almost impossible to chamber.
Cast bullets with the proper BP lube will keep that fouling soft enough to allow repeat shots.

[Griff]

Primers do differ. I usually drop about 10% below my previous load with a primer change, sometimes I need to go higher to get the same velocity or accuracy from the new primer. Other times I need that prior primer. When velocity or accuracy just can't be duplicated.

BP and jacketed do not mix because the fouling in the barrel gets hardened due to lack of lubrication. Most times it makes accuracy intolerable. In addition, BP doesn't like bullets that extend past the neck in bottle-neck cases. Frankly, I have no idea why this is.

Both reasons that the .30WCF doesn't like BP. Few .30-30 cast bullets carry enough lube, and even 160s will extend slightly into the case body.

[M. M. Wright]

The way that I have been able to use jacketed bullets with black powder is to place a grease cookie and a nitro card under the bullet. I use a mixture of bowl rings and olive oil melted in an old electric percolator that I keep for the purpose. Pour out a slab on waxed paper and let cool. Drop BP through 24" drop tube into case, push 1/8th inch card into case, use the case mouth to cut grease cookie from the about 3/16th inch thick slab. Seat bullet. I use a dial caliper to measure the depth of the card wad against the powder to be sure of the seating depth of my bullet & cookie.
Have used this method for 44-40, 38-55 and 45-70. It works and lets you use jacketed bullets if you think you need them. I prefer cast from 30:1 lead/tin for my hunting bullets and usually use a gas check for these soft projectiles.
Sometimes longer barrels require more lube than is in the grease grooves of most cast bullets. This use of a cookie works very well here too. I once had a 92 in 44 WCF with a 20" octagon barrel. The BP loads I shot in it gave a grease "star" on the muzzle and the accuracy would hold up for at least 10 rounds. Went to a 73 with a 24" barrel and accuracy would be really bad by round 5 or 6. Added a grease cookie, (a little less powder to make room for it) and the accuracy would hold through 10 rounds and the "star" on the muzzle was back. Powder was ffg Goex.

[Shasta]

For rifle and/or pistol, I have had no problem switching brands of primers, but I do not switch magnum for standard or standard for magnum. Primer choice does in my experience affect accuracy, so when I work up a load I try several brands of primers and keep the test targets for reference. I have a primer brisance chart found on the internet, and it is posted over my reloading bench:

http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_test ... erence.htm

As for jacketed bullets I have had no problem at all switching brands. I just make sure the bullet weight is the same.

For your BP question, it would help to know what the "modern caliber" would be. A straight-walled case or one with a very long neck would be most suitable for BP loading. The primer would not likely be an issue. As others have stated, lube is needed to manage fouling. A dry jacketed bullet might work for a shot or two, but really, cast lead is the only way to go. Even with cast, I often add a grease cookie, especially in a long-barreled rifle.

SHASTA

[awp101]

Thanks guys!

OK, start low and work up. That makes sense. And I didn't think about it, but I could probably get some load info from Winchester's site. IIRC the Sierra manual only listed Rem 9 1/2 for the .38 Special loads and the Lee manual listed Federal 150 and something else but no Win SP. I picked up 1K each of small pistol, large pistol for standard or magnum loads and small rifle. Plus 1K of 209s.

I'll know tomorrow (hopefully) if the rifle deal gets done but I will say it's a straight walled case in a 20-22" barrel. I figured I'd have to re-lube for black but the info M.M. Wright gave is very helpful. Many thanks!

OK just for giggles since compression came up, is figuring the compression a trial and error thing or do you make up a dummy round, measure the difference between the exposed bullet length and an unseated bullet and figure the remaining case volume from there? Yes, I plan to hit the books as I get closer to being ready to do this but it's always nice to pick some brains (I have none left) and do a little recon work...

And here's a little tidbit of info that's slightly embarrassing. I had the wild idea that I'd deprime and resize some .45-70 last night after doing 50 .38 Specials to get the press set up and to get a feel for the process. Went to my handy-dandy stash of dies and found all I have is the Lee hammer set and a FCD. I used to have 3 sets of 45-70 dies and now I can't remember what I did with the two sets I had for a press.

[Don McDowell]

Don't sweat the compression on the blackpowder. Dump the charge weight you want in the case, if you pour slowly from the scalepan into the funnel you'll get pretty decent settling in the case, and then compress the powder until the bullet seats to the depth you want without putting stress on the bullet nose.

[AJMD429]

Whenever I change a primer brand I drop back to starting loads and work up again. Same with bullet brands.

Yep.

[w30wcf]

Interestingly there were some factory cartridges that were offered with jacketed bullets pushed by b.p.

The 25-36-86 is one such cartridge. I dissected one and there was no grease cookie but the bullet had 4 cannelures but no grease in them.
http://www.soldusa.com/rainworx/detail.asp?id=49872

W30wcf

[jeepnik]

None of my loads are barn burners. But, I always drop back 10%. Mybe it's just me, but I've acurracy go from pretty good to mediocre when changing brands of primers. Heck, I once had primers of the same brand but a different lot # and experienced the same thing. Got another lot# and things worked out fine.

[Cliff]

Good Questions. I remember a long ago article by Mike Ventorino was writing to explain how to check out the various surplus military rifles out there, using black powder for safety. He simply pulled the bullets (Usually Military Ball) from the case, replaced the smokeless powder with black powder, reloaded the case, seated bullet and crimp if needed. It seemed it worked for him. Another source of good information is J.D. Wolfes book reloading for the Govt. 45070 to duplicate the original black powder loadings. Very detailed and informative. I imagine a search would find something on his books. Good Luck.