Survival Guns - Pistol-caliber Leverguns

[AJMD429]

I guess we're not the only ones to appreciate 'pistol-caliber lever-action rifles'...

• http://ferfal.blogspot.com/2012/08/pist ... ifles.html

[Old Ironsights]

Of course, a lot depends on what "survival" means.

Ferfal is dead on as usual - especially in the urban survival enviorn.

But out past the suburbs, I've really come to the conclusion that the .410 levergun has the best balance of lethality, versatility and field reloadability of all guns in that class...

You may only get 7 in the tube (Rossi, after modification), but between slug, buckshot, birdshot and specialty loadings there is an awful lot you can do with a .410 that you can't do with the .357.

[Rusty]

OI, does that Rossi take 3" shells or just 2 1/2?

[Old Ironsights]

Sadly, only 2-1/2".

Not sure what action could take a 3"...

[1894cfan]

While it's not a lever, I've got a Mossberg 500 bantam in 410 with a 24" full choke barrel and a 18" cyl. bore barrel for close encounters loaded with Win 3" 00buck loads as backup to my 1894c.

[El Chivo]

yeah but what's the range of a 410, maybe 40 yards?

There are shotshells for 38 special as well.

I was going to get a .410 as my first and only gun, but as I read more went with the .357. Of course now I have a whole slew of guns but still the .357 is the most versatile.

[AJMD429]

I suppose one could use a .444 Marlin or .45-70 and load some wicked shot-shells, plus have really 'stout' slug-loads. I think you can fire .410's in .444's, too, but haven't tried it myself. (I know you can fire .444 Marlin shells in a .45-70 though... but it's kind of hard on the brass.)

[Old Ironsights]

yeah but what's the range of a 410, maybe 40 yards?

with a proper slug, 75 on critters that don't lie down and yell.

There are shotshells for 38 special as well.

I was going to get a .410 as my first and only gun, but as I read more went with the .357. Of course now I have a whole slew of guns but still the .357 is the most versatile.

I agree that for anything that needs a 125-180gr pill you are absolutely correct.

But in most non-combat "survival" situations that isn't the case.

add to that that you need no kind of dies whatsoever to reload a shotshell if you are careful and you have a distinct advantage over the .357.

Would I trade my .357 W1892 for a M1895/W1894 .410? No chance. (despite the fact that I have both)

But if you look in my truck you will find an inexpensive 10-22 for prairie-dog sniper work and an even more inexpensive "snake charmer" .410 for everything else...

Combine the $$ invested in the two and you have a nice Rossi RioGrande which will do everything but 100+ yd hole punching. which is why I have suggested it to my Father (a "non-gun" guy) as his "only gun".

[Gary]

I'm with El Chivo on this. A 357 levergun will put rabbit or deer on the table, should you need to hunt to survive. Defending the home? No doubt about it.

[Old Ironsights]

I'm with El Chivo on this. A 357 levergun will put rabbit or deer on the table, should you need to hunt to survive. Defending the home? No doubt about it.

But it has a harder time adding Birds to the menu. Sometimes neither Deer nor Rabbits can be found.

Pigeon & Crow Breast aren't bad eating...

Combat, yes. General Survival for the not-so-well-trained in firearms, not so much.

[AJMD429]

This is getting farther from the OP, but thinking about .22 LR and the .410 breakopens, do they make barrel-inserts for .410 so you could use .22 LR or .22 WRM or .22 Hornet or something...?

[Malamute]

I suppose one could use a .444 Marlin or .45-70 and load some wicked shot-shells,...

I've built shot loads for 45-70, and also used 410 shells in them. The patterns are generally pretty poor past 10 yards (or less) because of the rifled barrels spreading the shot into donut shaped patterns, and spreading very quickly into uselessness. Shot loads in rifles are close range snake loads in my book, I wouldnt try shooting birds in the air with them beyond 5-8 yards.


I've shot birds with rifles. Probably more than I have with shotguns.

Can't say I've ever been a big fan of shotguns, unless shooting clays, or sport hunting birds in the midwest, like doves or pheasants.

[Old Ironsights]

This is getting farther from the OP, but thinking about .22 LR and the .410 breakopens, do they make barrel-inserts for .410 so you could use .22 LR or .22 WRM or .22 Hornet or something...?

Yes, but you lose the "repeater" capability necessary for a true "survival" gun...

[Chris83716]

Savage model 24. Mine is 22lr over 20 guage but they make/made them in any reasonable combination you can think of. I understand there was a run of 357 over 20 guage that are highly sought after for just the reasons we are discussing.

Mine is going camping next weekend in case we stumble accross a few Blue Grouse or a rabid paper plate that attacks our camp.

Chris

[Blaine]

If you're going to have a .410, why not a 12, or a 20? It would be easier to trade/buy ammo for. You could stock up a huge supply of those cheap WallWorld 100 count field loads, and have a little loader kit to make buckshot or slug, or sabot rounds with your extra bullets from wherever. If survival means stealth to you, then a good .22 with a big supply of CB Longs is the ticket.

[AJMD429]

Yes, but you lose the "repeater" capability necessary for a true "survival" gun...

Of course like earlier posters noted, it all depends on WHAT you are 'surviving'...

I remember seeing the M-16's with 12-gauge single-shots under them where the grenade-launcher would ordinarily go, and thinking that would be a sort of carbine-version of a LeMat pistol...

I'd think a .45 Colt or .454 Casull levergun, with a .410 or even 20 gauge single-shot where the front half of a full-length magazine would be, would be nice.

Or something like that Civil-war-era gun with a 'magazine' that was actually loaded (blackpowder) chambers in a bar of steel - maybe make something like that so there were chambers for a .45 cal cartridge and a .410 shotshell.

Anyway, I did like the FerFal article, and am glad others are realizing the value of leverguns in such situations (or at least I guess I'm glad - if the 'authorities' realize the peasants might be able to protect themselves with them, perhaps they'll try to outlaw them along with the EBR's ).

[El Chivo]

Birds can fill the pot, but I've hit more birds with my airgun than with shotgun. I shoot 12 gauge at quail and they either fly right through it fly off because of the noise. It seems like you have to get the range just right, it's not for me, I need a solid projectile.

If you have a good pistol caliber levergun, .22 or airgun, you can take their little heads off while they are standing on branches, and kerplunk go get your dinner. Not legal for the hunting regs but we're talking survival here. And if you see a deer or rabbit farther than 40 yards you can have a go at it as well.

[jeepnik]

Having spent considerable time developing "The Perfect Jeep Gun", which is suited to both urban and rural survival I am a self-appointed expert (hey, aren't all experts really self-appointed) on the subject.

For many years I used a pistol caliber semi-automatic carbine. It is a dedicated "survival" rifle and so designated by the manufacturer. However, I found that this particular carbine was simply too light, and didn't have sufficent ballistics to work in some scenarios. While the carbine was fine for rural survival if all one needed was something for foraging, it was simply not satisfactory for urban survival (which is generally anti-personel in nature) and rural situations that require anti-personnel effectiveness.

Afte a rural incident in which the anti-personel purpose of the carbine was sorely tested, I decided that while the firearm needed to be fairly light, and easily stored and transported it would need to be capable of a variety of ammunition that would allow it to be effective against everything from bunnies to bears (hey man fits somewhere between the two size wise).

As I pondered the situation, I poured over various gun type annual catalogs. While there were several firearms that might do, I decided if I wanted "The Perfect Jeep Gun", I was simply going to have to make it myself. Now I don't profess to be a gun manufacturer, so I was limited to modifying an existing firearm. As it turned out, I had in my possesion the ideal base gun for "The Perfect Jeep Gun"

I present it here (although most of you have already seen it and are probably tired of the photo), for you edification.

Here it is broken down for storage.



Here it is broken down and shown with its predecessor for size comparison.



And lastly assembled and shown with its predecessor for size comparison.



So, just what is "The Perfect Jeep Gun"?

Well it started live almost 5 decades ago as a simple Mossberg 500 in .410. The best firearm for teaching a youngster the ins and outs of shotgunning. It languished for some time when it was superceded by bigger gauge shotguns. Modified to break down into a package only 19 1/2" long, it assembles in less than ten seconds.

But, chambered for .410 it can take bunnies (birds as well, but I'm sticking with two and four legged critters for the purpose of this dissertation) with shotshell. And, it can take bears (admittedly it would be better if it were a small bear, and as a last resort) with slugs. In addition with either buck shot or slugs, it makes a more than servicable anti-personel tool.

So, there you have it, "The Perfect Jeep Gun". Now you might note that it is the same caliber (I wonder if anyone will call me on this and be wrong?) as others have previously mentioned for use in a levergun. However, the levergun, while a wonderful tool, can't be broken down into as small a package (besides, who would want to let a new levergun go bouncing around on the floor, behind the seat of a jeep, going over rough terrain).

[L_Kilkenny]

In past lifetimes I spent a good amount (i.e. too much) of time pondering and studying survival and I've only come up with 1 conclusion when it comes to survival guns: Within reason, just about every cartridge and every platform has advantages and just about every one of the has disadvantages. Each is better than the other choices. Each is worse. I like the .357 lever gun, I like jeepnik's package (although the .410 is out for me), I like my 10/22's, a .22M has merit, AR's are great, so are bolt action centerfires. So on and so on. But the best gun for me(and you) shouldn't necessarily change whether you're talkin everyday life or some survival situation. It's also what gives a limited amount of merit to the internet's favorite questions, "If you could only have one?", "If you could only have 2?", etc etc.

So if you think about it, if a .410 pump, or .22 single shot or a 12ga single isn't the best gun for you today (and less face it, they don't top any one's "if you could only have one" list) why would you think that all the sudden it makes a great survival gun?

If I don't want to use it for everyday life then I sure as heck don't want to if the chips are down. It would be like carrying CoSteve's fancy 10mm to sit on the porch but choosing a cap'n'ball derringer to walk into a gunfight.

[shooter]

I really can't think of a single caliber that does everything as well as a .22LR in an "overall" survival situation. It doesn't do some things nearly as well as other calibers, especially getting up to big game size, or maybe bird hunting. It doesn't really excel in any specific category, but it gets the job done in almost every category. Plus ammo is cheap, light, and available everywhere.

If I could pick and choose my survival situation and environment, I could tailor a gun to fit that specific category. If it is going to be a "combat" survival scenario, I'd take an EBR. If it's a fend for yourself rural scenario to put food on the table, and maybe occasionally hold of an attack or two, a pistol caliber levergun makes a durn good choice.

I've never really considered a .410 to be a great survival caliber, but I might have to rethink that after OI's points. The only thing that holds me back on it is the limited range.

I think it comes down to - Be as prepared as you can be. Whatever you've got does you a whole lot more good than anything you don't have.

[AJMD429]

One other thought is that if your 'pistol-caliber levergun' is .45 caliber, then you can not only load it with the compact Lee Loader (the little kit you whack with a mallet), but you could use .45 cal sabots to load almost any bullet/projectile in an emergency.

[Buck Elliott]

.45 Colt, rifle/carbine and revolver.. You can load anything from snake shot to round-ball, to multiple ball, to "bulleted" rounds of whatever weight. Shot capsules are iffy in a levergun, but work very effectively in a revolver.. Handguns are less-often laid aside while working or lounging around the shelter than long guns are.. The gun you have with you is better than the one 50 feet (or yards) away, leaning on a tree...

If you wanted to, substitute .44 mag for .45, although .45 caliber round balls are more readily available, commercially.. Cast your own? It's a toss-up...

Just my thoughts on the matter..

[AJMD429]

.45 Colt, rifle/carbine and revolver..

If I were starting from scratch nowdays, I'd get me a .45 Colt Marlin 1894, and Ruger Bisley Blackhawk Convertible .45 Colt/.45 ACP or Ruger Redhawk .45 Colt. The advantage of the Blackhawk would be that it could share ammo with a 1911 or some form of .45 ACP semiauto carbine like a Marlin Camp Rifle or whatever. On the other hand, the Redhawk .45 Colt would be a better CCW gun, and probably one of the best "if just one gun" guns there is.

Alas, I have a couple 1894's in .44 Mag, but none in .45 Colt...

[Old Ironsights]

...I've never really considered a .410 to be a great survival caliber, but I might have to rethink that after OI's points. The only thing that holds me back on it is the limited range. ...

What's the practical range of a .22 without a fancy scope? 75-100 yds? There is your .410.

Guys, I'm not, and never would, suggest a .410 as the "ultimate" survival gun FOR A GUNNY.

WE are better than that, and can do more with different stuff.

But give MY DAD (the prototypical suburban non-hunter) a gun and the ONLY choice that makes any sense whatsoever is a light shotgun.

For someone like my Dad, the .410 offers a platform that even HE can reload for with minimal tools, and can make work in ANY situation that he can get in range for.

IMO a TRUE "survival gun" must be useable by ANYONE in ANY circumstance and can be reloaded for with ANY powder and ANY payload with NO press or other tools that can't be cobbled together from Ace Hardware.

That means a .410.

While I like the 336/Rossi .410 platform, the gun that is in the bad times compartment of my pickup is a singleshot break-open 3" .410 "snakecharmer".

It will NEVER be my first choice, but it IS my LAST DITCH choice.

If, as a "typical, normally non-gun-owning" suburbanite, had only ONE gun I could choose from, it would be a .410 Levergun.

[junkbug]

Why .410 levergun instead of a .410 Pump shotgun?

[AJMD429]

Why .410 levergun instead of a .410 Pump shotgun?

'Cuz this is the LEVERGUNS forum, silly. . .

[Old Ironsights]

Why .410 levergun instead of a .410 Pump shotgun?

'Cuz this is the LEVERGUNS forum, silly. . .

(Of course, i just saw a .410 AR Upper at one of the local shops today... so which is worse? )

[jeepnik]

Why .410 levergun instead of a .410 Pump shotgun?

'Cuz this is the LEVERGUNS forum, silly. . .

(Of course, i just saw a .410 AR Upper at one of the local shops today... so which is worse? )

Really, who makes it? By the way, I'm a "gunny" type person, and I obviously think the .410 is an excellent all around "survival" cartridge. Oh, and I've got a .410 levergun on the list. I just need to find one for a reasonable price. You'd think they were made out of gold with what shops in my area charge.

[shooter]

...I've never really considered a .410 to be a great survival caliber, but I might have to rethink that after OI's points. The only thing that holds me back on it is the limited range. ...

What's the practical range of a .22 without a fancy scope? 75-100 yds? There is your .410.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not a shotgun guy at all. I have one because I like to dove hunt once or twice a year, and in the off season I keep a short barrel on it with buckshot for h/d. I have absolutely no idea of their capabilities, because I've never had much interest in them. If a .410 has a truly effective range of 75-100 yds., then it sounds even more appealing to me. I was, perhaps mistakenly, thinking that type of consistent accuracy could only be had with rifled slug barrels, and the rifled barrels take away the effectiveness of shot patterns, so to get the maximum effectiveness for both, you have to have a dedicated barrel for each. If you're telling me I can consistently kill a deer at 100 yds. with a .410, I'm all ears

[El Chivo]

If a .410 has a truly effective range of 75-100 yds., then it sounds even more appealing to me.

I don't buy it. 40 yards maybe.

Rifled barrels were invented for a reason. And that .410 slug is a collar button.

.410 is known to be the gun of aficianados, i.e., experts. Because regular people can't hit much with it. Makes the sport more challenging. But for survival, do you want challenging?

Just about anything can be effective within 30-40 yards; how about doing that plus a whole lot more?

[Rusty]

I don't think the .410 is a magic killing machine by any means but they are far better than most people give them credit for. Even the slugs kill quite a few deer around here every year. I've talked to 5 or 6 men who started their children out hunting deer with .410 slugs at 50 yards or so and they all bring home the meat. If you look on youtube under .410 shotguns the is a video there where they shoot quite a few different shells out of a single shot. They shoot a .444 and even a .454 and the gun stayed in one piece. Not something I'd want to try but at least you know it can be done.
I bought some .410 wads to work with just today. I intend to try some .358 LSWCs in a .410 wad to see how they do. I'm thinking it might just be better than the eighty something grain .410 slug.