Lee Factory Crimp Die/Rifle vs Roll Crimp Test - UPDATE

[Griff]

Update:
The below described test has been delayed. I can only offer the following as my excuse: Necessary repairs to my truck took precedence in my time off schedule, not to mention the pocket book, so I'll be working thru this week instead of playing expert... or not so expert! Being sick for the past five days hasn't helped; but... I'm currently in Brownsville, TX, quickly thawing out, and hope to have this flu/headcold/laringitis thing licked soon! I will be home the second weekend in March to see the Doc (& get in some competition), and will take a couple of extra days to get this test in the record books. My apologies to the board and any that were waiting on the results.

Since my objectivity has been questioned. I'll offer the following:

I am about to order some handles for a couple of Lee molds; I'll add a LFCD/R for the .30-30. Since I'm proud of my "good" .30-30 ammo, I'll load up two batches, (not less than 25 rounds of each), using the same components and data, trimmed to length to ensure consistency and test fire the same on two targets using the same rifle. In addition, since I just happen to recently acquire a brand new set of RCBS .30-30 dies, I'll use these for all loading. I will also report the number of "ruined cases" it takes to adjust the dies. I'll then post the resulting targets, data and photos of completed rounds for ya'll, in order that interested Leverguns may reach your own conclusions!

Based on the results of the poll, I will use a single group for all 25 shots of each crimp style.

If you have any further suggestions on how to make this unbiased, I'll certainly entertain same!

Be advised, that it will take some time for the die to arrive, and I'm not planning any extended time off until the 4th week of February. I'll need the time to load the ammo and shoot the results.

[Bigahh]

Interesting Griff, Looking forward to the results. It may change the way I do things. Please do a 50 yard group no matter the outcome of the poll if you don't mind.

[Griff]

Interesting Griff, Looking forward to the results. It may change the way I do things. Please do a 50 yard group no matter the outcome of the poll if you don't mind.

Me too!

[Chuck 100 yd]

I agree... 50 yd is (for me) the best test range as my eyes work best at that distance with irons.
No difference may be noted in accuracy due to roll or Lee crimp. I like the roll crimp because it is easier on my brass than the LFC is. I have LFC dies for about 6 calibers and have had no problem with them other than I don`t like the little crimp marks left from the collet type of crimp. I have not had any case failures (cracked necks) from them though. Maybe I`m just pickey.

[Griff]

Hobie,
Can you add 100 yards to the choice of options. I thought I had it in there, but apparently I can't edit the poll.
Thanks,

[Scott64A]

Awesome, Griff.

I can't wait to see the results!

[Scott Young]

i would be interested too to see if it matches my experiment. i didn't test the lfcd against any thing else, i was just wanting to see if it would serve the purpose i was looking for. since you are going to be testing using the .30-30 it will have a canalure (sp?). just for a side note would it be possible to do a round with some bullets with out a canalure(sp?)?

i have used the lfcd on many rounds of ammo that didn't have a canalure (sp?) when i was shooting some heavy 338 magnum rounds with some in the magazine to check for bullet setback or jumping. there was none. the loads were with 200, 225 and with 250s. i was planning an elk hunt that never cam to fruition, but the shooting was fun. what i found was without the crimp all the bullets moved. the heavier the bullet the more they moved. i was shooting a savage 110. with the crimp none of them moved. each load was worked up to each bullet weights best accuracy level. with the crimp i didn't notice any significant change in accuracy. i only shot three shot groups and did a series of times on various days and temps. most of the groups were around .75 inches, some close to an inch and some close to .5 inches. i was satisfied for a hunting rifle this would be alright.

[Ben_Rumson]

Nothin agin yer eyesight Griff, but I suggest the use of a scoped rifle if you haven't already thought of it..

[Griff]

I do happen to have several thousand Sierra 125gr HPs seconds that did not receive the cannelure. I wasn't thinking of using these for the test, as my preferred bullet is a 150gr that does exceptionally well in this rifle. I was going to use my 150gr GCFN.

[Griff]

Nothin agin yer eyesight Griff, but I suggest the use of a scoped rifle if you haven't already thought of it..

I don't own a scoped .30-30! I will be using my 26" octagon barreled Winc 94 with tang sight and globe front. This barrel measures .850" at the receiver and the muzzle, there is NO taper. It isn't affected by heat as much as a tapered barrel. I will do this test at the range off a bench, rather than my preferred X-sticks.

Any suggestions as to shot strings, 5 per string or load 'er up and shoot all week! I'm thinking of 5 shot strings with at least a 10 minute cool-down between strings. May need to revamp due to range rules. (Public ranges, ya know!)

I really do expect to see a very shot-out bull, with either crimp!

[Ben_Rumson]

I'd go with a full mag to better test the crimps.. but with some sort of slow fire method

[Griff]

I'd go with a full mag to better test the crimps.. but with some sort of slow fire method

Agreed, at least one full mag for each crimp. The range I usually shoot at has a 30 minute firing period with about 15 minutes for changing targets. That might work out to two firing periods for each crimp.

[LeverBar]

This will be interesting to see how it turns out.

(Did you take my comment about dies tied to your name as a negative?--It wasn't supposed to be. The gist of it was that if you and a few other of the gurus here question the performance of LFCDs, then I should wake up and take a closer look at what they actually do for my loads.)

Right now, I LFCD for most of my calibers. It's going to be an eye-opener if I learn they don't do magical things to my crimp and accuracy!

[Griff]

...(Did you take my comment about dies tied to your name as a negative?--It wasn't supposed to be. The gist of it was that if you and a few other of the gurus here question the performance of LFCDs, then I should wake up and take a closer look at what they actually do for my loads.)
Right now, I LFCD for most of my calibers. It's going to be an eye-opener if I learn they don't do magical things to my crimp and accuracy!

No, I took it as a criticism; and if I can't handle a little of that, I have no business posting an opinion in such a public place. It may actually be deserved. I don't necessarily question their performance, I just don't see their need, and maybe I should have qualified that with a "for me". I read up on them quite a bit when they first came out. As I recall, improved accuracy was not a significant part of the claim; ease of reloading was. But several years of water has passed under that bridge, and the memory ain't what I used to claim it was! And, if I'm wrong, that little icon, ain't goin to be big enough. I may also have to get a Chrony to ensure I look at all the variables.

[LeverBar]

Well, wasn't meant to be a criticism. That's the problem with this printed word, gets misinterpreted. Meant it as a compliment.

[Modoc ED]

No, I took it as a criticism; and if I can't handle a little of that, I have no business posting an opinion in such a public place. It may actually be deserved. I don't necessarily question their performance, I just don't see their need, and maybe I should have qualified that with a "for me". I read up on them quite a bit when they first came out. As I recall, improved accuracy was not a significant part of the claim; ease of reloading was. But several years of water has passed under that bridge, and the memory ain't what I used to claim it was! And, if I'm wrong, that little icon, ain't goin to be big enough. I may also have to get a Chrony to ensure I look at all the variables.

I kinda took a swipe at ya in the other LFCD thread on here about your giving an opinion on them (the LFCD) without in fact ever having used them. I've posted to your reply to me in that thread. Take a look.

Anyway, as I stated in the other thread, I use the LFCDs for several of my rifle handloads. Why? For ease of use -- pure and simple. It has nothing to do with accuracy. Say, I'm loading .30-30 ammo both with 150gr and 170gr bullets. It is far easier to use a LFCD for crimping that to have to adjust the seating/crimping die when going from 150gr to 170gr bullets. Same for my .444 Malin loads when loading a batch of rounds with 265gr bullets and then loading a batch with 280gr bullets.

You are correct in your statement above that Lee does not claim better accuracy if you use their LFCD. At least I've never seen anything from them saying so.

It will be interesting to see the results of your experiment. You do have a wealth of knowledge that is appreciated by all here (yes, me too) and your opinion is respected (again, by me too).

[J Miller]

Griff,

I just finished part one of my loading test of my LFCD/R. I've loaded 150 rounds with it and have not mangled or damaged a single case.

All 150 cases were WINCHESTER head stamp, 50 loaded with Hornady 150gr RN, and 100 were loaded with Winchester 150gr PP. All were full length resized in a 1977 vintage RCBS die set in my Bonanza Co-Ax press and loaded nicely.

All 150 cases were trimmed to the length listed in the last real Winchester loading data book that had such info. Length was 2.028". All cases were inside and outside chamfered.

The R-P Hornady combo did not crimp as well with the LFCD/R as did the Winchester combo. The FCD/R did not fully crimp the case mouths into the deap crimp grove on the Hornady bullets.
However the crimp on the Winchester combo looks real nice.

The instruction on the FCD/R states to screw the die in till it hits the shell holder then ad 1/2 turn. Add more turns for a tighter crimp.
But it also says not to crimp any more after the collett jaws are fully closed. Doing that will damage the die. In my press, seating the FCD/R till it contacts the shell holder, then 1/2 turn more fully closes the jaws. So unless I'm missing something, I'm getting all the crimp I'm gonna get.

I haven't been to the range yet, and I want to load up another 100 rounds to test out Lee's comment that you don't have to trim the cases. I plan on grabbing 100 cases without checking their length and loading them. Then crimp them and see what happens.

As for the range test, I plan on using 5 shot groups at 50 and 100 yards. I KNOW the bullets are not going to collapse into the cases, so I have no need to load them into the magazine for this test. I'll just single load them. This will also help keep the barrel on my carbine from overheating too fast.

I'm hoping to get this done withing a month or so, but as fickle as IL weather is, who knows.

Just follow the die instructions if your are using an RCBS press, or follow the press instructions if not.
And of course follow the Lee instructions. By doing that I'll bet you don't loose a single case.

Joe

[Griff]

Ed,
No problem, I took no offense. I've certainly been called far worse! Some of which I take to be compliments, (PIG, comes foremost to mind, ya know... that Pride, Integrity, Guts thing)! But, I do take such things to heart, especially when I can see the others point of view, as is the case here. Which is why I've volunteered to look at this. As well as doing the accuracy test, I will be considering the "ease of loading thing", and post my personal observations along with the range report.

I'd actually like to be started on this sooner, but... being weather bound up here in WY (very windy and icy roads) enroute to Salt Lake City is peggin' the patience meter!

And thanks for your work also, Joe. I'll be using individually weighed powder charges of 27 grains of RE-7, with bullets weighed and segregated to those within ±.1 grain. (I still have to lube & size them, hopefully from the approximately 2,000 on hand I can find 100 to meet that test!) I am going to use my cast boolits, I might also load up 50 more using a Speer 150JFP I have on hand. The primers will be all from the same lot and I'll use once fired Winchester cases as I'm not sure I have enough once fired Federals to load 100 rounds. I will trim all to 2.020" although Speer lists nominal case length @ 2.040".

Again, any other suggestions, are still welcome.

[J Miller]

Griff,

All of my LFCD/R test loads so far have been with Win 748 powder. That stuff is like a miracle for me. It measures so close to perfect I set my powder measure and throw them. Checking them too often is an exercise in OCD.

I see nothing wrong in your test method. I'll let you know what I find out, when I get there. My only concern is the 94 I'm going to use is my untested, unsighted in 1950 Carbine I bought a couple years ago. It may not shoot groups at all, I really don't know. Oh well, I still have my 'lil Trapper, and I know it will shoot.

Scary thing is, I might accidentally learn something.

Joe

[KirkD]

Since I can't vote again, I'd like to see my vote changed to 100 yards, as I indicated in an earlier post. If there is a problem with a load, it might be up for argument at 50 yards, but 100 yards should make it clear.

[Ben_Rumson]

Prolly too late by now in this poll...but I'm holding out w/my vote in hopes that Hobie will add 100 yds to the poll like Griff asked..If not then I'll have to go w/75yds too..

[Griff]

Prolly too late by now in this poll...but I'm holding out w/my vote in hopes that Hobie will add 100 yds to the poll like Griff asked..If not then I'll have to go w/75yds too..

Yea, (as he chuckles evily to himself), I've been unable to vote for my preferred option also!

EDIT: Actually, I left the poll open for 14 days, IIRC.

[C. Cash]

Should be interesting Griff....thanks for taking the time. My one attempt at using the LFC die on my 356 Win. did not go well really. Might have been some other factor such as neck tension(have since changed out the expander ball). Tycer got my LFC die and now I just put a nice roll crimp on my loads. Back to really nice accuracy.

[Bigahh]

The reason I voted for a 50 yard test rather than a longer one is I believe (myself anyway) it takes away more of the "Human Error" aspect. Griff is not setting out to test his personal shooting skill on this one, but rather a specific load. He stated he is doing this to maybe learn a little something, and I will be paying close attention to do the same. Wish I could be there, as my Grandmother always told me..."Boys will be Boys"

[Hobie]

100 yards is a requirement. It is a standard everyone understands and distant enough that differences can be readily measured. Shorter distances are for practice and zeroing purposes, not for determination of grouping ability.

Ok, so that's my opinionated opinion...

PS. Griff had me add the 100 yard option...

[J Miller]

Now that Hobie added the 100 yd option I voted for it.

Joe

[Griff]

BTT for more input.

[Ben_Rumson]

ttt

[JReed]

Griff are you going to weigh each charge? Also I know we are all about field positions but I would recomend a sand bag rest to eliminate as much shooter error as posible. ( not that I need to tell you how to shoot). Oh and if you have a spotting scope and a friend that wont mind spotting it would make your life easier so you dont have to walk up and down the line so much.

[Griff]

Griff are you going to weigh each charge? YES, along with bullets. I'll be using primers from the same lot. The only thing I ain't gonna do is cc all the cases.
Also I know we are all about field positions but I would recomend a sand bag rest to eliminate as much shooter error as posible. YES.
( not that I need to tell you how to shoot). Maybe not, but I'll take all the help I can get, as my sniper training occurred many years ago.
Oh and if you have a spotting scope YES.
and a friend... Hopefully, at least one.
that wont mind spotting it would make your life easier so you dont have to walk up and down the line so much. I hope to impose on one.

And, since I notice that the 50yd and 100yd options have tied, I'll make this as fair as possible and shoot the Lee FCD/R ammo at 100yds and the regular seated/crimp die ammo at 50! Not! I'll do one magazine, (9 rounds), of rapid fire off X-sticks for each type @ 50 yds, then slow, timed fire with a barrel cooling off period between shots off sandbags and rest @ 100.

[JerryB]

Griff,I will be waiting for the results.Wish I could get downn there to help,maybe 86er could work with you.

[J Miller]

Heck I'd come down there and bring mine too if there was bunk house to crash in.

Joe

[Griff]

BTT - Update in first post. Sneaky, huh?

[Ben_Rumson]

Thanks for the update Griff...Hang in there & hope you get to feelin better soon!

[crs]

Griff;
Where you plan to do all this shooting? At your place or at a range?

I have been loading some trial .45-90 loads I need to shoot and there is also the new .405 to test.

BTW - I just recently read in the Beartooth Bullet Technical Guide that J. Marshall Stanton recommends the Lee Factory crimp die for cast bullets in straight wall rifle cases. Since this was just before I loaded some Beartooth 325 gr cast bullets in my .45-90, I was especially careful with the crimping and even compared the results with factory crimps.
I must be doing something wrong, because my Lyman .45-90 die crimp looks just like the crimps on two different types of factory .45-90 ammo (even under a magnifying glass).
What am I missing?

[Borregos]

Hope you get rid of your ailments soon!
Looking forward to seeing the results of this test very much!