OK. I've come to a conclusion why my 1873 Uberti 45 Colt

[hightime]

doesn't shoot as well as I thought it should. My 9 gr , 250 rnfp 454 dia. loads were not hitting better than 5'' groups. 230 rn were even worse. Remington 250gr are better 2 or three inch at 50 yards. Someone here mentioned that the Rem leads were swegged. I pulled one appart to see last night. I get it now. The bullet seals better as it is fired. Now what? Find the mold? How does it work? Nose pour? I see molds with a hollow base, but these are more exaggerated the sweddged. Do you think these will work even better? For now I think I'll order a 1000 Rem leads from Midway for a $100. It bugs me though 'cause I've got 300 lbs of lead.
One more question...........In my reloading book it says 9 gr. Unique as max. I'd lke to push it and see if a little more will help the bullet seal. I have a dozen 9.5 gr loads made up to try. I carefully wieghed each one. Am I crazy to shoot them?

Thanks, Owen

[adirondakjack]

Hollow based bullets are nose poured, typically from a single cavity, three piece mould. They are painfully slow to use, but they can be improved greatly with a "cramer conversion" that makes the mould open automatically like a normal mould. It's not a cheap process, but worth it in terms of time spent. see http://www.hollowpointmold.com/cramer-style-molds/ He does hollow BASE conversions as well as hollow point. There's even a special mold he does that works on a mastercaster machine (I helped design that, bought the first one). However, he only converts molds, he doesn't cut the cavities.

Somebody must make a copy of the remington bullet mold (even thought the original was swaged). If not, Steve Brooks (brooks molds) can cut a cavity if you can supply a bullet or drawing to copy, and he does excellent work.

[J Miller]

Owen,

Look for a Lyman 454190 mold. The older the better. Those molds are designed to cast large for the older Colts with large bores. My Ideal 454190 mold casts large enough I can size it to .4555" which is the same size as the Remington bullets.
I size them to .454" or .4555" depending on what mood I'm in. Lately I've been sizing them to the large size to duplicate the factory ammo.

You don't really need the hollow or concave base if you cast the bullets on the soft side. Use straight wheel weights or 20-1 lead-tin alloy.
That is about what the factories use.

Have you slugged that barrel yet? You won't really know until you do.

Joe

[Hobie]

Slug the barrel. Measure the slug. Get your bullets .001"-.002" over that diameter. You can cast, you can buy them, whatever, it seems they need to start a bit oversize.

The word is "swaged" (the modern form) or the alternative "swedged". IOW, the bullet is forced into a die to shape and then forced out. The hollow base allows the expanding gas from the burning powder to force the base of the bullet into the rifling. IF you start with the bullet at the correct diameter (hence the first paragraph) you don't need a hollow-base bullet.

I would strongly recommend AGAINST upping your powder charge.

Sometimes a particular bullet that works for one gun won't work in another even of the same make, even the very next in the production line. That's how it is and that is part of the game.

[Old Savage]

Yes and if there is something like a tight spot in the barrel you may still have a problem.

[Griff]

I also would strongly recommend AGAINST upping your charge. Get the right size bullets. Also check the crown of your muzzle. Check for any small imperfection... that could be turning or affecting the flight, making it erratic.

[mikld]

Slug the barrel. Measure the slug. Get your bullets .001"-.002" over that diameter. You can cast, you can buy them, whatever, it seems they need to start a bit oversize.

The word is "swaged" (the modern form) or the alternative "swedged". IOW, the bullet is forced into a die to shape and then forced out. The hollow base allows the expanding gas from the burning powder to force the base of the bullet into the rifling. IF you start with the bullet at the correct diameter (hence the first paragraph) you don't need a hollow-base bullet.

I would strongly recommend AGAINST upping your powder charge.

Sometimes a particular bullet that works for one gun won't work in another even of the same make, even the very next in the production line. That's how it is and that is part of the game.

Yep, agree with Hobie. Good bullet/cylinder throat/groove diameter fit is essential to accurate non-leading cast bullet shooting...

[pdawg.shooter]

The three most important things in getting cast bullets to shoot well are...size, size, and size! Slug your bore and throats and fit the bullets to your gun.

[Hobie]

Yes and if there is something like a tight spot in the barrel you may still have a problem.

YES. It is not as uncommon as we might like to think.

[hightime]

Just came in from the shooting range. As I complained earlier, when new the gun shot right and after adjusting to center, the front sight had to be bumped right and rear left. Visably angled to the barrel. I've shot two hundred rounds now and the shots have migrated back to where the barrel is pointing. I brought the sights back to close to center. What's up with that? Did a edge get worn off that was throwing off the bullets? Well at any rate, she's better. I still hit better with the Rem factory loads, 2'' groups of three and three inch with my loads at fifty. Now I can tweek for the fun of it and not be mad. I'll slug the barrel, but it would seem like I have only two choices and I can try 452 and 454 to see which shoot the best.
I have, and it seems that 454's are better.

[Old Savage]

Barrels and rifles can be funny and all individuals like some of the bent hairpins on internet boards

[hightime]

I give up for now. I have Rem bullets comming. They work. I figure out the rest over time. If it was easy it wouldn't be much of a hobby.

Owen

[J Miller]

Owen,

There is a difference between "easy" and a PITA. You're rifle is being a PITA.
But you do need to slug that bore to find out what's going on with it. It's not hard at all.
There's a bunch of us here who can walk you through it if you want.

But in the mean time, here's a couple suggestions about those Remington bullets.
A~ Use a .454" expander instead of a smaller one. You might have to buy an RCBS cowboy die to do this.
The reason is these bullets are very soft. If you use a carbide die and the small expander that usually comes with modern die sets the extremely tight case fit will actually compress the bullet. That will negate any benefit you might get from the larger bullet.
Because of the 73 actions lack of strength you won't be able to load them hot enough to compensate for this.

B~ Once the bullet is seated crimp in a separate step and use a moderate crimp. Just enough to roll the case mouth into the bullet snugly. For this kind of load you really don't need a super heavy crimp.

C~ The Remington bullets have a weird waxy type of lube on them. I don't really trust that it is enough for handguns let alone rifles. It also has a tendency to gunk up the seating and crimping dies. I coat them with Lee Liquid Alox Lube right over the factory lube. Helps a bunch. This might help a lot with the accuracy.

Keep us posted.

Joe

[hightime]

Wow Joe that's good stuff! Being the risky guy I am I did try 9.5 gr. of Unique on a dozen rounds last night. It shot better , but not as good as the factory loads. Did you read how the barrel seems to have changed? Each time I've shot it lately I have had to adjust windage slightly , until the two sights are nearly where they should have been all along. At first it shot way right and the sights were strangely diagonal to the direction of the barrel. Now it's pretty good. I think my groups are getting better too.
One quick question. Will I need to pull the bolt to slug the barrel? The side plate screws are super tight.

Owen

[J Miller]

Owen,

9.5grs of Unique is a bit too much for the 73 action. I'd limit it to 8.5 were it mine. It won't KABOOM it, but it will lead to excessive head space as the the toggles wear.

You don't have to take the action apart to slug the barrel. It's best if you can but you can do it from the muzzle.

The super tight screws are a Uberti tradition. Be careful when you try to loosen them up, they are soft. Our own Nate Kiowa Jones has said he uses a custom made set of screw driver bits with an impact driver to loosen them.

I suspect there was a burr or something else at the muzzle that has worn away as you've fired it. It really does not take much to deflect a bullet as it leaves the muzzle.

Here is something you can try. Buy a box of Hornady 250gr XTP HPs and pick a good standard pressure load. Shoot them through the rifle. It's been my experience that jacketed bullets will smooth out a rough barrel faster than lead bullets.
If you do that there's plenty of data out there for jacketed bullets.

Joe

[hightime]

I'll do that. Just to let you know too, I use RCBS dies. I can't find to what size they size to. But I suspect quite small. I just tried the shot brass back in the chamber and it slid in quite easy. I'm going out to load some without sizing and see how they work.
Thanks for the tips, Owen

[J Miller]

I'll do that. Just to let you know too, I use RCBS dies. I can't find to what size they size to. But I suspect quite small. I just tried the shot brass back in the chamber and it slid in quite easy. I'm going out to load some without sizing and see how they work.
Thanks for the tips, Owen

Owen,

Your RCBS dies could range from .450" up to .452" depending on vintage.

Joe

[hightime]

They are quite new. Do you know who might make a little bigger dies?

Owen

[J Miller]

They are quite new. Do you know who might make a little bigger dies?

Owen

RCBS sells their Cowboy dies. They have a larger expander than the standard dies. I bought just the expander and switch it out when I need to. But you can buy the entire expander die, or the whole set.

Joe

[w30wcf]

I have an older set of Lyman carbide dies for the .45 Colt. They size the case necks to .473" O.D. I believe that they were meant for loading the original .456-.457" diameter Colt bullets as a .452" bullet can be pushed into the case with the least little bit of resisitance by hand. A .454" bullet is not as tight as it should be but the .456-.457" diameter bullets fit just right.

Regarding the Remington bullet ( a very good bullet for the 45 Colt) - Using the Winchester recommended load of 7.1 / 231, I was able to print a couple of 5 shot groups in the 3" range at 100 yards awhile back using my Marlin Cowboy.

In addition, older Winchester Cowboy Ammo (Blue Box - 1990's) also shot very well at 100 yards. A pulled bullet measured .456" diameter.

w30wcf

[J Miller]

John,

Your results with the 7.1gs 231 and the Remington bullet mirror mine. At least to the being accurate part. I haven't shot them at 100 yds yet but at 25 it is a very accurate load.

What is the date code on your older RCBS die set?

Joe

[w30wcf]

Joe,
I checked the box but don't see a date code. I purchased them waayyy back in 1974. The box is made from black cardboard. At the time I bought the dies, I purchased a shellholder and found that it would allow the case to pop out of it sometimes when seating primers using the press. Hmmmm.......

I have since discovered that it was meant for balloon head cases which it fits very well.

w30wcf

[J Miller]

Joe,
I checked the box but don't see a date code. I purchased them waayyy back in 1974. The box is made from black cardboard. At the time I bought the dies, I purchased a shellholder and found that it would allow the case to pop out of it sometimes when seating primers using the press. Hmmmm.......

I have since discovered that it was meant for balloon head cases which it fits very well.

w30wcf

1974, Hmmmm. Mine are 76 I think, I'd have to go look. They came in the old plastic green box.

The shell holder for balloon heads, does it have a different number on it? If so I'll keep my eyes open for one.

Joe

[w30wcf]

Joe,
It was a number X11 shellholder but I don't know if they offer it anymore and if they did, they may have updated it to fit modern brass. I have found that a shellolder for the 300 Magnum series fits balloon head cases ok......but if you go that route, take some cases with you to be sure.....

Regarding the dies, mine are the Lyman All American. If yours are in the Green Box - RCBS?

w30wcf

[J Miller]

Yep, mine are RCBS. I thought that X11 was Lyman. I have one and it doesn't do real good on balloon head cases. I have a couple of shell holder multi sets so I'll check the 300 Mag series and see how they do.

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

I would suggest using the following load:

Win brass
Win LP primers
7.0 grains W231 or HP38 (same propellant)
250 grain Laser cast RNFP

Should go about 1000 fps from your levergun.

This is a standard pressure load - a little on the light side actually, so should be easy on your rifle.

[hightime]

How good would that be to kill a deer?

Owen

[J Miller]

It would no doubt work since the now common RNFP is just a copy of the original 44 WCF bullet. But I'd prefer a SWC instead. The flat nose just works better on game.

Joe

[jlchucker]

The three most important things in getting cast bullets to shoot well are...size, size, and size! Slug your bore and throats and fit the bullets to your gun.

Agreed. Remember--no two guns are absolutely alike as they come from the manufacturer. But don't forget a good lube as well. I've found that the colored lube used on a lot of storebought cast bullets doesn't work as well as softer lubes like Alox. A properly fitted bullet, lubed with some good stuff works surprisingly well. Once you slug your bore, and get the bullet that fits, work up a load for that gun and write down all of the specs for it so you'll always be able to come back to the load that works best. Good luck.