OT-Most reliable: Gas or Recoil operated?

[getitdone1]

Which do you guys think is most reliable, gas or recoil operated semi-auto rifles and shotguns?

My guess is recoil operated like the Browning A5 shotgun, Remington model 11 shotgun (clone of Browning shotgun) and Models 8 and 81 rifles. For one thing they don't have holes that can plug-up and not let the gas through. I know these particular guns are considered to be very reliable.

But, the military uses gas operated. They certainly want reliability when a lot of men's lives are on the line.

Recoil operated came first, didn't it? If so, why the switch to gas operated?

The answer probably is the better guns, both gas and recoil type, are very reliable but to keep them so critical areas must be cleaned from time to time.

I know some of you know everything you need to know about both types. I don't and would like to know more.

Don

[Cliff]

I sure don't know everything there is to know about these two systems. I would say gas operated are probably more reliable and recoil operated kick more. The dwell time of a gas operated weapon seems to soften felt recoil. There were some recoil operated rifles such as the Johnson Rifle which proved itself in combat and had a quick easy take down barrel for cleaning. The best source for a lot of information on the different systems could probably be found in General Hatcher's "Note Book" he got to test just about every system out there when the military started looking for a semi auto rifle to replace the 1903 Springfield. Some had terrible recoil and some even required the cartridges be oiled in order to function. If you can get your hands on a copy of his book it well worth the reading. Most all of his career was at Springfield Armory and he really knew his stuff. Other than that this I know nothing on the two systems. Good systems. Good Questions.

[AJMD429]

I think there is a major power limitation to ordinary types of "recoil" operated guns, although a more complex (prone to gum up or break) or heavy (too heavy to be practical) mechanism can be made to work.

However, the simplicity of a regular recoil mechanism like the 1911 or Uzi makes them pretty reliable!

Although the gas mechanisms can be adjusted on some guns (or aftermarket items like the Shuster's Gas Plug can be used for Garands), to accomodate a variety of ammunition power levels, it seems like my 1911 functions with a wide variety of power levels of ammo.

[86er]

Recoil operated is actually a term that can be applied to 3(4) different mechanisms. First, the long recoil action like the A-5, second the short stroke piston action like the Win 50 or 59 and third like the rotating head compact inertia piston like the Benelli. The fourth is the open bolt action like the Uzi that relies on the cartidge to be shoved back out of the chamber by the force of firing alone. The long recoil action works by allowing the barrel to move rearward about 1/5 of an inch to act upon an action bar that forces the "bolt" open, the short stroke piston has a floating chamber that is independent of the barrel. The floating chamber moves about 1/10 inch and acts upon an action block that pulls the bolt rearward. The rotating head compact inertia piston has the rearward force of the cartridge against the bolt head compress the head into the rear half of the piston where the entire piece then begins moving rearward as one, taking the bolt with it as they are connected. This is similar to a blowback action. These systems allow the gases of the fired cartridge to escape out the muzzle. They are inherently cleaner since no gas and carbon come back into the action. The gas operated gun directs escaping gases to act upon an impingement that forces the bolt back.

If the gases from a gas operated gun are obstructed or not maximized (clogged holes, light cartridges, gun not assembled tightly) the action will not work. The mechanism must also rely on counter-levers to time and regulate the speed of the rearward moving bolt and a strong return spring.

The gas operated gun has the gas and shot charge exiting the muzzle while the gun is thrust rearward, however the rearward thrust is accelerated by the gas acting upon the impingement. The bolt moves all at once too.

The recoil systems allow all the gas to exit the gun so the gun movement is one slower speed to the rear (it is not accelerated by gas moving rearward or the bolt abruptly moving rearward). The different recoil systems all break down the rearward force in stages. First the barrel, floating breach or rotating head moves rearward. Then the movement is slowed as it transfers the force to the action bar, action block or bolt piston respectively. The bolt then travels at a slower rearward speed. Once the cycle opens everything, it returns at a slower speed since the return spring only need to push the parts back in place, it does not need to maintain pressure to keep it in place like it does on the gas gun.

I have a Remington 8 and 81, an A-5, a Winchester 59 and a Benelli. I have or have had a Remington 1100, 11-87, Charles Daly shotgun, Mossberg shotgun, Verona shotgun and AR-15 platform of gas impingement system and one of the piston system.

The various recoil operated guns have been more reliable overall. I've had few failures with the gas systems but some failure to cycle, failure to feed and jams with each and every gas operated gun except the the gas AR-15. The recoil operated guns have never failed to cycle or began to jam. The recoil with the recoil system feels less than an equivalent weight and caliber gas gun - a big factor being that the recoil guns disperse the recoil over a greater period of time.

The Rem 1100 Special Field 20 gauge would need to be cleaned every 500 rounds to avoid issues. Mine never made it to 1000 without a hiccup. It has many small parts that needed to be disassembled to clean and it was d-i-r-t-y! The Benelli can weigh less because of less parts (and less weight up front is easier for a lady, youth or smaller shooter to handle). The Benelli has 5 parts and it has gone over 2000 rounds of field shooting with assorted ammo and was exposed to rain, snow, salt water and sand and it has NEVER malfunctioned. I've easily got over 8500 rounds through it without a hitch.

In my experiece, a properly maintained gas operated gun is just as reliable as a properly maintained recoil operated gun. However, the maintainence intervals and extent of maintenance are much more frequent and complex with the gas gun. Neck and neck with the same ammo and NO cleaning, my experience dictates that the recoil operated gun will keep going longer.

[getitdone1]

Thanks for all the responses.

86er,

I've heard great things about the Benelli semi-auto shotgun. Would you say there has never been any semi-auto shotgun as reliable as the Benelli? That's my understanding. Once again, another gun I'll have to own. (There is no end to this.)

Don

[86er]

The patented ID system is quite simple and amazingly reliable. Stoeger and Franchi have this technology. You can get a Stoeger 2000 for $500. My Benelli is actually a prototype that was going to be the Benelli 2000 and was later tweaked to become the Benelli American. Same ID "inertia driven" system in all of them. I've not found a more reliable semi-auto with mixed 2 3/4 and 3 inch steel and non-toxic shot under harsh use.

[olyinaz]

OT: The Stoeger 2000 is an excellent value. My boy has one and it's fantastic.

Oly

[MrMurphy]

The only problem with recoil operated guns is when the recoil gets softened or interrupted.

By itself the Benelli M1 recoil system works great. For tactical/combat use, people figured out quick adding accessories led to a single-shot shotgun as it affected recoil when you added too much.

Thus why the M1014 issued to the USMC is a Benelli, but gas operated. You can add lights, ammo and night vision without affecting reliability.

[BigSky56]

If I had to bet my life on it take recoil have used both in combat, gas systems will let you down. danny

[Nath]

My Franchi Fast ( a Benneli really) is very reliable. I prefere the felt recoil from this system.
Gas'ers as I call them feel like much more is going on in there. I am not knocking gas'ers, I love'm just the same! The long recoilers are a bit "boingy" but simple and reliable, shot many and love'm too.

My Franchi will shoot 15/16oz loads to 3" loads except on cold days when it struggles with the 15/16oz loads to be 100% reliable!

Light gun too.

Nath.

[retmech]

The "long recoil" system of the Browning A-5 has the barrel moving over 3" to the rear. The barrel and bolt ride back together till the bolt hits the stop and momentarily locks. The barrel returns forward powered by the recoil spring (stopped by the forearm wood) and the fired shell is ejected. The waiting shell in the mag tube trips the bolt lock and it chambers the next round. If there is no shell in the mag tube the bolt remains locked back. It is a very dependable action when configured properly for the shells being used by varying the friction rings on the mag tube. I currently own a 20 ga A5 purchased in 1968 that has fired over 80K rds at skeet and sporting clays. The only repair was a broken firing pin 2 yrs ago! The A5 and the 1911 designs are hard to beat.

[RIHMFIRE]

"inertia driven" system is way better than a gas driven...
no where near the carbon build up..

[Lastmohecken]

Yes, I tend to think the long recoil system of the A5 is more reliable then say the gas system of an 1100 if no maintance is done at all, but Gas systems at least some are very reliable. The AK 47 is a prime example, if it has an chrome chamber, and many of the civilian models nowdays do not, but the real deals will work pretty darned good, even when given to untrained conscripts.

The AR 15 is a dirty gun, and blows gunk into the action everytime it's fired, but mine seem to work very well, but I must admit that mine have never been really neglected. I would probably trust my FAL to work, and it's gas operated, and I cannot ever remember it failing to work.

A good tight tolerance 1911 like my Wilson Combat will easily shoot for 500 rounds of dirty handloads between cleanings, and I remember owning one old mostly worn out custom 1911 parts gun, that was so sloppy, that it would work pretty much forever, with just a little oil sprayed on it, occasionally. I swear that gun could be so full of gunk from dirty handloads, etc, and just keep on working, that I only cleaned it when my range buddys would start to harass me, because my gun was so filthy.

All in all, my vote does go for recoil operated, but I have had some very experienced people maintain that gas operated gun are more reliable, but I would hazard to guess those are well maintained gas operated guns.

[MrMurphy]

I've had a pair of M16s run under conditions anyone would assume they'd jam.

1996, heavy Kentucky monsoon level rainstorm. I was soaked. Rifle was soaked. Ground was mud or underwater. I was running a combat assault course with blanks, which are notoriously filthy and make M16s choke. Me and rifle were covered in mud from crawling, shooting constantly, and at one point, was underwater (the barbed-wire pit became a barbed wire pool) except for my mouth and the muzzle. Only hiccuped on me twice? I think, and that was the fault of the blanks simply not having enough gas to cycle the gun.

Another time was in Italy, December 2005. I was playing OPFOR ('bad guys') for a team of deploying convoy gunners, all of whom were normally maintenance troops. I had 14-15 mags of blanks and an M16A2E3 (full auto not burst) that was bone dry coming off a rack from storage. Even crawling around in dirty/sandy and very cold (December in Europe) conditions the gun ran several full auto mag dumps and a lot of semi without a single malfunction even when filthy as hell and unlubed.

Gas guns can be extremely reliable. But any mechanism can fail.

[Streetstar]

[quote="MrMurphy"]I've had a pair of M16s run under conditions anyone would assume they'd jam.

1996, heavy Kentucky monsoon level rainstorm. ]


Ft Campbell?

[MrMurphy]

Fort Knox, during college. Army ROTC at that time.

The other time, USAF Security Forces, Maniago, Italy.

[Streetstar]

Fort Knox, during college. Army ROTC at that time.

The other time, USAF Security Forces, Maniago, Italy.

1996 was the time frame i was closing out my military tour at Ft Campbell --- too many dreadful days to count weather wise

I gotta agree that the recent incarnations of the M16 are fairly bombproof, provided they receive reasonable care.
I also have strong positive feelings for the G3, which is a delayed blowback design. The drawback to the G3 is it recoils harder than a FAL --- i don't have a ton of experience with the FAL though, i just recall its recoil being a love tap in comparison

I guess i think that either system , if its engineered well and built well, is as reliable as the other . Admittedly i don't have any experience at all with civilian semi-autos, so i cant comment on any of those, except for my dad's old Model 50 Winchester shotgun. I'm not sure its ever been properly cleaned and it seems to go like the energizer bunny

[MrMurphy]

The G3 does recoil harder than the FAL and it's about the same on reliability.

But a hard blow to the receiver of a G3 can take it out of action (stamped receiver, it's kind of thin).

The G3 came to be because the Belgians (understandably after 2 World Wars) refused to let the Germans produce the FAL beyond an initial test batch (the G1).

[Canuck Bob]

Lever Operated, sorry it just needed saying!

When you got 20 guys and autos you can afford a jam. Unless your the guy with the jam. Me, I liked the roller block FN, never saw one jam. Well I actually prefered the 105 Howitzer, a sliding block single shot. Like the man said about the smell of napalm in the morning, I liked the sight of phoshorus at dusk.

When its one guy and a moose in heavy bush give me a lever. Mind you I got this evil urge to look at the new Browning lefty auto. A lot of reasons to say no, but a true lefty!!!

[a357lever]

AK-47 works ok so I guess it's the design of the particular system. I shot 200 rounds once in a new one took it home, the gas tube was packed with grease I noticed a little spray while I was shooting! true story:)