Modern Combat Levergun Article

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:42 am

I found an interesting article about levergun combat training and it provides an interesting perspective I think we all can appreciate. You'll find it HERE.

piller · Post by **piller** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:04 am

Quite interesting.

Jeff H · Post by **Jeff H** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:05 am

That's interesting.
I know some might balk at the very idea and it would not be my own first choice, but one may find oneself in a situation where one has to use what one has. If it's running right and you are practiced up, you could have an edge over an aggressor who is likely as not "putting in range time" himself, regardless of what his choice of weapon is.

I wonder (don't shoot me),........... would a .45 Autorim work in a lever? Would it provide another round or two capacity? Just a thought. Not something I might run out and do myself, but the article makes the gears turn.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:12 am

Jeff H wrote:I wonder (don't shoot me),........... would a .45 Autorim work in a lever? Would it provide another round or two capacity? Just a thought. Not something I might run out and do myself, but the article makes the gears turn.

I'm pretty sure there are folks making 'race guns' in short .45-ACP-like cartridges. Whether or not it would be wise for a 'tactical' application to have 14 rounds vs. 12, if it meant using a non-standard cartridge, and/or sacrificing any power, would be the question.

There are many aspects of 'modern combat' survival (perhaps 'social decay' survival would be a better term) and some would definitely NOT be levergun-friendly. Here would be just a few that come to mind:

attack by ordinary looters and thieves or other human predators
attack by roving dogs or other animals
hunting food animals
attack by roving post-apocalyptic gangs armed with modern weapons
attack by multiple trained troops with modern weapons and armor

The first three of the above list are not the most glamorous, but are the most likely, to happen in the 'pre-apocalyptic' phase we're certainly living in now to one extent or another. Leverguns are perfect for those needs.

The last two of the above list are ones where I think modern 'battle' weapons would have a definite advantage, and even with them, a person would need a coordinated group of other homesteaders or 'survivalists' (I hate that term), or whatever you want to call them, to help. If a person had a home or ranch targeted by 50 armed gang-members out to loot, rape, or whatever, it would be 'iffy' they'd survive it no matter what they were armed with, unless they had a large family of shooters, and lots of ammunition (even a large supply of which could easily be exhausted in one battle), and an unusually fortified dwelling. If for whatever reason (extremely unlikely, but I'm sure it does happen if a society totally breaks down) a homestead were targeted by actual 'troops', it really wouldn't matter what firearms one had, unless they were 20mm MiniGuns or something like that...! I'd probably want my 24" octagonal levergun in that scenario, hoping the extra barrel length would enable me to hoist the white-flag a bit higher without getting in the line of fire.

centershot · Post by **centershot** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:37 pm

The effectiveness of a levergun as a combat rifle deals more with the ability of the rifleman than the rifle. Doc is correct in saying that you are at a disadvantage when confronted with multiple attackers armed with modern weapons, but the key here is to diligently TRAIN with the weapon you have, know it's (and your) abilities, and play to it's advantages. If you're interested in reading more on this topic, click on the link below and scroll down to the Fighting Leverguns thread. Gabe Suarez and Uli Gebhardt's posts are interesting and intriguing reading! This topic is discussed in detail on the Warrior Talk website! Shoot often, be safe!

Regards,

Patrick

http://www.warriortalk.com/

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:02 pm

One glaring error. The 45-70 was not designed to take down large game. It was designed as an anti-personnel round from the get go. You'd think Warrior Talk would know better.

By the way, I subscribe to Warrior Talk, but hadn't read this article yet.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:41 pm

Yes I understand that some states restrict ownership of semi auto guns to the point of "can't do that" and other states restrict semis for hunting making them less desirable in my mind but isn't this article kinda a "duh". And not that accurate IMO either. First it assumes that a semi is the best option for civilian "combat" and then it seem to indicate that a levergun is the next logical choice. What? Did the worlds supply of 12ga. pumps dry up overnight and did everyone turn dumb when it comes to the effectiveness of both them and leverguns. I found the article about as enlightening as a the Oprah Winfrey Show.

LK

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:26 pm

Thanks for sharing Steve

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:38 pm

L_Kilkenny wrote:Yes I understand that some states restrict ownership of semi auto guns to the point of "can't do that" and other states restrict semis for hunting making them less desirable in my mind but isn't this article kinda a "duh". And not that accurate IMO either. First it assumes that a semi is the best option for civilian "combat" and then it seem to indicate that a levergun is the next logical choice. What? Did the worlds supply of 12ga. pumps dry up overnight and did everyone turn dumb when it comes to the effectiveness of both them and leverguns. I found the article about as enlightening as a the Oprah Winfrey Show.

LK

I agree that the author was somewhat 'limited' in his experience as well as his spelling and grammar. Still it was interesting to read someone trying to make a case for a levergun as a bug out gun. He did get many points right, i.e. light weight, fast handling, easily reloadable, politically correct, etc.

20cows · Post by **20cows** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:43 pm

My late brother showed up at a Chuck Taylor combat rifle course with a Win 94 in 30-30. Everyone else had an AR or AK varient.

He came out head of the class.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:08 pm

Several inaccuracies; those mentioned, plus the assumption that the Marlin is the stronger of the action types. And not disparaging the 12 ga. pump, but when ranges exceed 75 yards and accuracy is necessary, I'll take a rifle cartridge, even the lowly .30-30 over the 12 ga. Speed loaders ARE available and are easily home built. Reliability and simplicity of mechanisms are the bulwarks of levergun systems. Far more with the abilities of theh average "joe" than gas-bleed or blowback operating systems.

For the 45ACP equivalent, consider the Cowboy45Special, essentaily a 45ACP with a 45Colt rim. Mods or parts to fit several popular rifles are available. I'm building a Marlin 1894to use it right now. I have high hopes for its success. It'll be tuned to use the same bullets & loads I current;y load for my 1911 45ACP pistols.

All-in-all, he's not that wide of the mark. But tactics must be combined with or adapted to the weapon for any chance at success. Would a levergun be my first line of defense? No. For even in CA, I'm sure the concept of civil-disobedience isn't unheard-of. But, then again, their legislature's arrogance is one of the foremost reasons I left.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:10 pm

20cows wrote:My late brother showed up at a Chuck Taylor combat rifle course with a Win 94 in 30-30. Everyone else had an AR or AK varient.

He came out head of the class.

Sorta proves the old saying "It ain't the gun, it's the man". I know folks I wouldn't stand 300 yds down range if they had a matchlock in their hands. Others, the safest place is the designated target.

Cliff · Post by **Cliff** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:14 am

A lot of good and interesting comments. The 45-70 was intended to kill people, however armies all over the world used the big old cartridges for another benifit which was to break down horses. The Cavalry was the maker or breaker on the battle field prior to the machine gun(s). It did a good job as well. One gun which is not mentioned and is not a lever gun would be a British bolt action military enfield. 10 rounds, stripper clip loading and fast and easy to handle. I would mention the Schmidt Rubin 7.5 with the straight pull in either 1911 or 1931K configuration, but they are a fine rifle for rapid fire, I don't know how combat resistant they maybe as the Swiss have never used them in a war. Big advantage of the Lever Action is its looks. Most people will say Deer Rifle or sporting rifle. Like has been said practice, practice and then some more practice. Sure beats a wooden stick. I like my lever actions and usually are my go to rifles. Liked the article and comments. Everyone have a good weekend. ATB

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:19 am

Mmm. Interesting.

I have two 94 Trappers in .45 Colt and they are my go to rifles. Both my wife and I aren't getting any younger and weight is important. For my wife who thinks she's a 19 year old 350 pound Amazon Warrior but in reality is a 120 pound 50 year old delicate flower the weight and simplicity are very important.

If we ever have to use them I'll have to teach her on the fly. She's not a shooter. She'd do it, and I don't think she'll shrink from it but there you go. Might kill us both and that would be a pity. Is what it is.

I use to use SKSs but the Trappers are much simpler for her to operate and of course much lighter.

The ability to top off without disabling the weapon to me is a huge advantage. An enormous gap in semi-auto technology in my mind.

I haven't gotten rid of my SKSs yet, but I aim to. The 94s have taken their places.

If you come to my house with bad intent that's what you'll get shot at with and I think they'll do the job just fine.

Cat

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:26 pm

Griff is correct. The Cowboy .45 Special basically is an ACP with a colt case head so it runs in rifles modified to feed it, and can be loaded to ACP+P in any rifle, even the 73, which is not too shabby.

I can run a 24" Marlin or '73 with 17+1 capacity (or 10+1 in in a 16" rifle), slicked so it takes very little effort to lever, hosing down a target or array of targets at a brisk pace honed through years of CAS shooting. I would hazard to guess the fastest CAS shooters could run em as fast and accurate as the AR "action game" crowd can accurately run a semi-auto. For real world "tactical" use, they might not be choice number one, but it'd be a fool's errand to underestimate em.

The downfall of the lever action is now, and always has been the use when in the prone position. The answer? Don't lay down.

Jeff H · Post by **Jeff H** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:26 pm

jeepnik wrote:One glaring error. The 45-70 was not designed to take down large game.......

Men and horses don't constitute "big game??"

OK,......... he DID say "buffalo."

As far as how suitable a lever is in whatever cataclysmic situation one could dream up, I will not go there with anyone.
I did not mention societal breakdown, fighting off foreign armies or terrorists either - on purpose.

I don't think that because a person trains to use what is at hand as a weapon means necessarily that such expedient device is what one would pick if there were a choice either.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:43 pm

he seemed a little weak on the levergun but had many valid points. always good to read affirming literature to what we already know. the levergun is certainly not a combat weapon. but for self defense i would rather have one next to me then nothing. Oh, how about that, I happen to have one next to me in a 16 inch version with ammo that matches my primary carry pistol. Think I heard that somewhere before. OH yea, that was here on this forum.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:44 pm

Cliff wrote:A lot of good and interesting comments. The 45-70 was intended to kill people, however armies all over the world used the big old cartridges for another benifit which was to break down horses. The Cavalry was the maker or breaker on the battle field prior to the machine gun(s). It did a good job as well. One gun which is not mentioned and is not a lever gun would be a British bolt action military enfield. 10 rounds, stripper clip loading and fast and easy to handle. I would mention the Schmidt Rubin 7.5 with the straight pull in either 1911 or 1931K configuration, but they are a fine rifle for rapid fire, I don't know how combat resistant they maybe as the Swiss have never used them in a war. Big advantage of the Lever Action is its looks. Most people will say Deer Rifle or sporting rifle. Like has been said practice, practice and then some more practice. Sure beats a wooden stick. I like my lever actions and usually are my go to rifles. Liked the article and comments. Everyone have a good weekend. ATB

Very true about the horses. But since horses aren't game animals, I didn't address them. Besides, some folks still think that only the riders were shot during cavalry engagements. Hollywood is to blame, how many times have you seen the outlaws or indians chasing a stage coach? Did you ever once see them shoot one of the horses? Pile up one horse of the team, and you'd have horses and coach all sorts of smashed up. I guess I'm cruel, cuz the first thing I'd shoot for would be the horse, darned big target, and when the horse went down, you've a pretty good chance of taking the rider out of the fight.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:28 pm

jeepnik wrote:
Cliff wrote:A lot of good and interesting comments. The 45-70 was intended to kill people, however armies all over the world used the big old cartridges for another benifit which was to break down horses. The Cavalry was the maker or breaker on the battle field prior to the machine gun(s). It did a good job as well. One gun which is not mentioned and is not a lever gun would be a British bolt action military enfield. 10 rounds, stripper clip loading and fast and easy to handle. I would mention the Schmidt Rubin 7.5 with the straight pull in either 1911 or 1931K configuration, but they are a fine rifle for rapid fire, I don't know how combat resistant they maybe as the Swiss have never used them in a war. Big advantage of the Lever Action is its looks. Most people will say Deer Rifle or sporting rifle. Like has been said practice, practice and then some more practice. Sure beats a wooden stick. I like my lever actions and usually are my go to rifles. Liked the article and comments. Everyone have a good weekend. ATB

Very true about the horses. But since horses aren't game animals, I didn't address them. Besides, some folks still think that only the riders were shot during cavalry engagements. Hollywood is to blame, how many times have you seen the outlaws or indians chasing a stage coach? Did you ever once see them shoot one of the horses? Pile up one horse of the team, and you'd have horses and coach all sorts of smashed up. I guess I'm cruel, cuz the first thing I'd shoot for would be the horse, darned big target, and when the horse went down, you've a pretty good chance of taking the rider out of the fight.

I think along the same lines. Even with a SAA, about anybody could hit a horse, taking some of the starch out of it, and rendering the rider vulnerable at the very least.

Palmtreee · Post by **Palmtreee** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:16 am

Jeff H wrote:That's interesting.
I know some might balk at the very idea and it would not be my own first choice, but one may find oneself in a situation where one has to use what one has. If it's running right and you are practiced up, you could have an edge over an aggressor who is likely as not "putting in range time" himself, regardless of what his choice of weapon is.

I wonder (don't shoot me),........... would a .45 Autorim work in a lever? Would it provide another round or two capacity? Just a thought. Not something I might run out and do myself, but the article makes the gears turn.

DRC took my 45 Colt and re chambered it to 45 ACP. Now I can shoot my favorite load of a 200 grain H&G #68 SWC in my lever, 1911's and Smith 625.

bigbore442001 · Post by **bigbore442001** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:07 am

That take down looks wonderful. I like it for some reason. Personally I would have one in 44 magnum since it is one of my favorite rounds.

Palmtreee · Post by **Palmtreee** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:26 am

bigbore442001 wrote:That take down looks wonderful. I like it for some reason. Personally I would have one in 44 magnum since it is one of my favorite rounds.

Love the 44 but you can't shoot that out of a 1911. The 1911 is my favorite.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:39 am

Nice TD palmtree. A friend of mine is building a 45ACP version of the 1894 Marlin as I build mine in C45S. I'll have to send him a link to show yours. Maybe he'll do a article on it, I hope so as he's a very interesting story teller.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:58 am

I recently did some full mag rapid fire shooting with my Winoku 32-20 TD long rifle. I have a lot more tin cans to bust before I can brag about acceptable shooting skill.

I understand the value of self defense training but that magazine disturbed me a bit. I wish Canadians could get carry permits for handguns. As it is it, it is a miracle we can even own legally. I really take exception at citizens wearing body armor and a mind set that that sees a drive to the 7-11 as a combat patrol. Because that attitude leads to collateral damage a sad fact of war zones not my street.

I don't live in a world that is that dangerous. Are your world's that dangerous?

I consider myself an armed citizen militiaman capable and willing to defend my family, my neighborhood, and my country. I was a Militia Artilleryman in the service of my country once. I own a Lee Enfield battle rifle and am military trained in technique and tactics to use it properly. As hunters many are skilled in the art of ambush and surprise that translates easily to sniper. I wrote a thread about tactical levers once but realized after I want my levers to remain sporting arms.

I also support and defend a persons right to think and train anyway they want as long as it is in the protection of the innocent. Even if it concerns me a bit, so please don't label me something I'm not.

It just happens my sporty old 444 with a peep is a pretty fair tool in a gunfight with some drunk wearing body armor and carrying a glock. And a double barrel 20 gauge coach gun loaded with #8 target shot will clear my hallway. As a bonus it won't kill the sweet old elderly widow next door. Besides God created decent dangerous men to protect widows and children from twisted versions of ourselves. It is in the Book.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:19 pm

Canuck Bob wrote:I really take exception at citizens wearing body armor and a mind set that that sees a drive to the 7-11 as a combat patrol.

I wore body armor when I was in medical school and working night-shifts in 24-hour retail pharmacies in bad neignborhoods, so to me, it isn't necessarily a bad thing. I never got shot, but was in several armed robberies, and was glad I had at least some protection.

I agree with you that sometimes the 'survivalist' folks take it to the extreme (which isn't necessarily a bad thing - innovations and progress in any area come from those who take whatever it is to the 'extreme'), perhaps some of their attitude is a reaction to the knee-jerk anti-gun news media, naive soccer-moms, and western governments with increasingly 'us vs. them' police-state mindsets themselves.

Canuck Bob wrote:I don't live in a world that is that dangerous. Are your world's that dangerous?

I know what you mean, but 30 years ago I'd only have carried a handgun with me if I were working one of those night-shift jobs, or had to be in a 'bad' neighborhood at night. Having a borrowed, but brand-new, vehicle stall out on me in broad daylight in a very nice and 'safe' neighborhood one day changed my perspective, when I found someone had cat-walked up on me while I was searching for a rag to wipe the dipstick on, and put a 6" knife to my trachea.

The really DISTURBING thing was that I didn't hear the scary music - you know, the music that always comes on in the movie just before the bad guy appears...

I do think the term "survivalist" is kind of creepy though - first off, because it makes it sound like only those folks want to 'survive', and the rest of us must just not care all that much,

and secondly, because it stirs up fears among the 'non-survivalists' that the 'survivalists' either know something bad is about to happen, or perhaps even want something bad to happen. Neither is probably true, but as they say 'perception is 90% of the truth', and you're right about how it can create the wrong impression of gun owners if seen by naive non-gun-owners.

Also, I think our pretty little North American heaven-on-earth is going to soon hit the same state of affairs that Argentina and Greece are hitting, perhaps worse.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:22 pm

Not to get too far off on a tangent, I hear what Bob is saying. Their are a fine lines between being prudent, being paranoid and just being plain a** dumb. That happens to be one of the great things about this forum as opposed to TFL or THR, the lack of overgrown adolescents playing army here. IMO, civilians have no business using words tactical, combat, sniper, battle rifles, multiple BUGs, etc etc. If your in a war zone here in the U.S. then boo-who for you. Move.

The article linked by Steve starts off on a bad note. Why not use the term defensive instead of combat in the heading?. It's to draw in the monkeys is why and I get mighty sick of the monkeys some days.

LK

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:45 pm

Did DRC do the take down also? where did you get the Leather cuff made? excellent looking rifle. what finish is on it?

Palmtreee · Post by **Palmtreee** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:19 pm

rjohns94 wrote:Did DRC do the take down also? where did you get the Leather cuff made? excellent looking rifle. what finish is on it?

DRC did the whole rifle, finish is high gloss blue. I made the buttcuff to hold an eight round Wilson #47D magazine for my 1911.
Thanks for the kind words.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:46 pm

Ok, I finally figured out why CA politicians are so worried about autoloaders...

All it takes:
AK47 in the WRONG hands

Makes a levergun seem ever so much more practical.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:02 pm

AJMD,
That is some scary stuff. We have crime but the hoodlums still seem to kill each other and leave us alone.

I should rethink a little though. If I had your experiences I would be much more aggresive in my approach.

Also that is a sweet TD. My little Winoku 92 is a TD and I carry it in my luggage on sales trips. It fits in the little soft case my Steven's Model 30 came in perfectly. The rifle and a box of shells.

It is nice to carry a rifle but no rifle case.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:50 pm

I think a leveraction makes a decent home defense gun, and a pretty good choice for a car or truck gun, just to have, even when traveling, and they do not look as evil as a black gun, when spotted by law enforcement, or held up in front of a jury if it came to that.

And I believe for quick shots at a single threat or two, they might even be superior to a black gun, in certain siduations, after that, it's tatics that count. However, my favorite leveraction, and I own about everything, more or less, would be something like one of my Browning BLR's in .308 win, maybe with the barrel cut back to 16 inches and a few extra mags, however, even at 20 inches stock, they are mighty handy with a low powered scope, and you have all of the range and penetration you can probaby ever use, you could even carry a few military rounds. And really for single shots in the prone position it's superior to any military gun with a 20 or 30 round mag hanging down, unless you dig a hole in ground.

Jeff Cooper once wrote that there is not much a man alone can't handle with a scout rifle and a 45 automatic pistol, that could be done better with a full auto battle rifle. And in a way, he's right, because if you end up in a siduation where you need a lot of firepower, you're probably already in so much hot water, that you are going to be dead anyway, but I keep an FAL, and a couple of AR's anyway, just incase I ran into a few holes in his assumptions.

But you know as far as the levergun goes, I remember on one hunt having to jump up and run, to cut a deer off that that was on a dead run, and dropped it with one shot, from my BLR at about 100yds. It was quick off hand, swing and follow through shot, and my BLR handled like a fine bird gun. I doubt if I could have done that with a military rifle, even if I had had a 20 round mag. Some might question my ethic's on even taking the shot at all, but that was not my point, and the meat tasted just as good, and the memory of the shot, will last a lifetime.

The point I was trying to make in the last paragraph, was sometimes a fast handling gun, like a leveraction, assuming the person using it has the skill, can make shots that might not even be possible with a military weapon, under certain conditions, espacally survivable siduations, that might be encountered in a so called end of the world as we know it siduation. And a Shotgun would still be mighty hard to beat, up close, and once again, I base my opinion on my hunting experiences.

Personally, I don't think one needs one of those pistol grip riot type shotguns with rifle sights, because they are slower to get in action, then a common bird gun. And I have hunted enough game birds to know that even a common Joe Blow, with some bird hunting under his belt, will most likely take out somebody with about anything else at close range, in a surprise firefight, where it comes down to reaction time, and getting there the fastest with the mostest as we used to say in some of my combat pistol circles.

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