Henry and model 66

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Wed May 11, 2011 7:20 am

Been looking at the Rock Island Auction "complimentary books" they sent me. What a great bunch of guns and a lot of expensive ones too.

The Henry and Winchester model 66:

They both shoot the same 44 rim-fire ammo don't they? Was this cartridge changed over time?
Does anyone now manufacture this ammo?

Although I've just started reading these books I've seldom seen them mention the BORE CONDITION. Many of these guns made in black powder days.

If you're thinking about buying these guns--many in the 2500-10,000 dollar range, lots higher too--you have to really know your stuff. I'd find a true expert for help before buying. I'd also HAVE to see the gun in person.

Now here's an interesting one: Engraved Sharps Model 1851 Carbine in .60 caliber. 20-40,000 estimated auction selling price. Think I'll pass.

Don

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed May 11, 2011 8:16 am

Don, yes, the same chambering. There were variations in the load over time and with different manufacturers, but the basic load didn't change much. There's some good information in Cartridges of the World.

Navy Arms has had limited production runs of cartridges now and then, but I think it's been maybe 15 years since the last run. I believe they had them made in South America somewhere, perhaps CBC? Navy Arms did make a few of the Henry's and 66's in 44 rimfire many years ago, but I don't think there were many made.

If you happen to turn stumble across a box of the Navy Arms catridges for anything remotely resonable as regards price (last I heard they were going for about $75/box), let me know, I have a friend with an original Henry that wants a box of cartridges for it.

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed May 11, 2011 5:28 pm

Always wanted a Henry 58/ colt 1860 conversion ,both chambered for the .44 henry rimfire flat. But since i didnt hit the lottery, setting my sights on an Uberti 1858 conversion in .38 special and a Rossi 92 16" barrell in .357 S&W magnum.Maybe , when times/ finances get better.

Driftwood Johnson · Post by **Driftwood Johnson** » Thu May 12, 2011 11:38 am

Howdy

Yes, all the original Henry rifles were chambered for the 44 Henry rimfire cartridge. The great majority of the 1866 model were also chambered for the cartridge too. However in The Winchester Handbook, George Madis states that 1020 1866 rifles were converted to centerfire and shipped to Brazil in 1891.

When the cartridge was first developed under Oliver Winchester's direction, it had a conical lead bullet weighing 216 grains. The standard powder charge was 26 grains of black powder. Soon afterwards the bullet was changed to a flat nosed bullet of 200 grains, but the powder charge remained the same. These cartridges are commonly referred to as the Henry Flat. I have seen reference to other powder charges and other bullet weights over the years, but the figures I quoted are from the book The Henry Rifle by Les Quick and it is the most authoritative work to date on the Henry.

The copper cased cartridge third from right in this photo is a 44 Henry Flat rimfire. It has a U for a headstamp indicating that it was made by Union Metallic Cartridge company. For comparison, the other cartridges in the photo, left to right, are 44-40, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44 S&W American, 44 Henry, 45 Schofield, and 45 Colt. Most of these cartridges are originals, but the shiny ones are my reloads.

I have a replica iron framed Henry made by Uberti that I love to shoot in Cowboy Action Matches. My avatar is a photo of its frame. It is a bit more trouble than shooting a side gate rifle, but well worth the trouble. Mine is chambered for 44-40 and I have never put anything other than Black Powder through it.

Most of the folks buying real Henry and 1866 rifles today are collectors and they have no intention of shooting them. The guns are worth too much and the ammo is not made anymore. I have several firearms made in the black powder era that I do shoot. Yes, you have to know what you are doing, no I would never buy one sight unseen. Yes, except for one they all have pitted bores. A pitted bore is not the end of the world. Even with a pitted bore, if the rifling is still strong, they are usually still good shooters.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu May 12, 2011 12:24 pm

Driftwood Johnson,

If you don't mind I'd like to save your pic for reference purposes. The comparison pic is quite good.

Joe

Driftwood Johnson · Post by **Driftwood Johnson** » Thu May 12, 2011 1:28 pm

Joe

Go right ahead, you have my permission. But if you make a million dollars off of it you have to split it with me.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu May 12, 2011 1:47 pm

Driftwood Johnson wrote:Joe

Go right ahead, you have my permission. But if you make a million dollars off of it you have to split it with me.

Will do.

Joe

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Thu May 12, 2011 2:35 pm

also, there were at least 3 of the original henrys that were chambered in the 44 centerfire. one of them was auctioned a few years ago, with wonderful pictures and full documentation, remember drooling on the auction catalog. IIRC it brought close to 100 grand!

Driftwood Johnson · Post by **Driftwood Johnson** » Thu May 12, 2011 3:46 pm

also, there were at least 3 of the original henrys that were chambered in the 44 centerfire. one of them was auctioned a few years ago, with wonderful pictures and full documentation, remember drooling on the auction catalog. IIRC it brought close to 100 grand!

Are you certain about that? That the rifles left the factory chambered for a centerfire cartridge? The Henry was only manufactured for a very short time, from 1861 until 1866. The 1866 rifles I referred to as chambered for a centerfire cartridge did not leave the factory until much later, 1891. I'm not even sure a centerfire cartridge had been developed by 1866. I have found no reference to any Henry rifles leaving the factory chambered for a center fire cartridge. I have no doubt some were converted to centerfire cartridges later, in fact I'm pretty sure Hollywood did so to some of their prop guns. Not saying I couldn't learn something new, but I have never seen any reference to any Henry leaving the factory chambered for a centerfire cartridge.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Thu May 12, 2011 4:00 pm

Driftwood Johnson wrote:
also, there were at least 3 of the original henrys that were chambered in the 44 centerfire. one of them was auctioned a few years ago, with wonderful pictures and full documentation, remember drooling on the auction catalog. IIRC it brought close to 100 grand!
Are you certain about that? That the rifles left the factory chambered for a centerfire cartridge? The Henry was only manufactured for a very short time, from 1861 until 1866. The 1866 rifles I referred to as chambered for a centerfire cartridge did not leave the factory until much later, 1891. I'm not even sure a centerfire cartridge had been developed by 1866. I have found no reference to any Henry rifles leaving the factory chambered for a center fire cartridge. I have no doubt some were converted to centerfire cartridges later, in fact I'm pretty sure Hollywood did so to some of their prop guns. Not saying I couldn't learn something new, but I have never seen any reference to any Henry leaving the factory chambered for a centerfire cartridge.

Yes, it was completely documented and fully pictured, sold maybe at rock island or James Julia...they had quite a bit of info on it. Was a factory prototype with complete provenance.
Will see if I can locate the auction records

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Thu May 12, 2011 10:54 pm

Driftwood Johnson wrote:... I'm not even sure a centerfire cartridge had been developed by 1866....

The 50-70 trapdoors were first made in '66 I believe. Berdan and Boxer primers were both patented in '66 also.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Fri May 13, 2011 11:21 am

Malamute wrote:
Driftwood Johnson wrote:... I'm not even sure a centerfire cartridge had been developed by 1866....

The 50-70 trapdoors were first made in '66 I believe. Berdan and Boxer primers were both patented in '66 also.

Remington made rolling block 58/70 center fire then too. I have one. Neat old rifle with nice bore, prob not shot much.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Sat May 14, 2011 7:07 am

Quite a post.

I NEVER fail to be amazed at the depth and
breadth of knowledge of the poeple on this forum.

Cool picture, too.

-Stretch

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:17 pm

Malamute wrote:
Driftwood Johnson wrote:... I'm not even sure a centerfire cartridge had been developed by 1866....

The 50-70 trapdoors were first made in '66 I believe. Berdan and Boxer primers were both patented in '66 also.

a little more on the earliest US made center fire breech loaders, from a presentation a few years back :

" Morse Centerfire Alteration
– these were originally Model 1816 Flintlock Muskets that had already been altered to percussion and converted to metalliccartridge in 1860-61. .69 caliber centerfire cartridge. Historically important asthe first U.S. breech loading cartridge longarm

Remington Rolling Block Conversions
of Model 1861 and 1863 RifledMuskets – These were done both by Remington and Springfield Armory.Calibers were .58 Rimfire, .58 Centerfire and .50-70. Except for theTransformed Rifle (discussed later) documentation is scarce about them "

cant find my catalog that showed the henry rifle in 44 center fire.. but it was a prototype probably produced in 1865, just before the 1866 came out in rim fire. wonder why they decided to switch to rim fire?

Batman1939 · Post by **Batman1939** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:26 pm

Saw a box of original 44 Henry (flat) cartridges in a recent Little John's Auction Catalog (May, 2011). IIRC, they expected this old box of cartridges to bring $2300 + at auction. Would make it a little spendy to use for plinking !!!

How many of you know that the 44 Henry has two (2) firing pins? Supposedly a way to make it more likely to "ignite" the rimfire primer. I wasn't aware of this until a friend sent some photos of old cases he had found out in Northern Arizona this spring.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:41 pm

66 I believe hgad two a well. some of the modern target rifles did as well, IIRC.

Batman1939 · Post by **Batman1939** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:43 pm

Cable-
You are correct about the 66 (or at least some of them). My friend's dad has a Model 66; it too has two pins.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:55 pm

Berdan priming was available in 66, but Boxer was not available in the US until the late 1870s, as a patent fight between Adams And Eley dragged through the English courts (until Eley bought Adams, ending the fight), preventing licensing of Boxer priming to US firms. The first boxer primed case was the .450 Adams, circa 1866-73 (first, unreloadable varient), replaced by the reloadable type in 1873 in Adams ammo) All early CF guns, rifles and handguns, made in the US used either rimfire or Berdan Priming until almost the end of the 1870s. Early 44-40, .45 Colt, etc are Berdan. Did Henry experiment with Brdan primed cases? Almost certainly, as did everybody looking to get away from unreliable rimfire priming. Once Boxer priming came along, and surely once it evolved to reloadable primers, yeah buddy, it was a huge hit.

Batman1939 · Post by **Batman1939** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:17 pm

Wow, Jack, that's a lot of info about primers. Obviously you know your stuff.

I thought primers almost became extinct a couple of years ago. At least they were virtually unavailable everywhere I looked.

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