I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
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I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
I've been looking for an elk/moose/bear rifle that has a 300yd usable trajectory. I looked hard at .338 diameter and .358 diameter. I went with the .358 because I like the 35 Rem and figured I could load down to that level for small game and practice. To me, a usable 300yd trajectory is one where I can sight in no more than 3" high at 100yds and can hold just below the spine at 300yds. I do not want to have to hold over the animal (off the target). I also keep in mind the ft/lbs of energy. While I am not a whole-hearted believer in energy alone I do think it is valid for comparisons and to create personal boundaries. With that in mind, I try to stay above 800 ft/lbs for a deer sized animal and near 2000 ft/lbs for an elk sized animal. One of the calibers I tried is the .358 Winchester. I had made up my mind to use a premium 200gr bullet to get a very usable 300yd trajectory and have enough "oomph" for elk/moose/bear. Yesterday I got to shoot at a 300 yd range. The lane has a roof and two 3/4 walls to block wind. There is a sliding metal table on tracks that moves a chronograph along tracks. The chronograph asks for bullet weight, selection of bullet style from a drop down menu (ie: Spitzer), and a few other questions. You then shoot 3 shots at each range of 100yd, 200yd and 300yds. The computer than gives you the B.C. and asks you to shoot the sequence again. It also tells you the bullet velocity at each range. I did this with 200gr Hornday bullets and 250gr Winchester factory loads. I was enlightened to find out that the 250gr load shoots just as flat throughout the 300 yd range! I was also surprised that the computer told me the ft/lbs of energy on the 200gr load dropped below 2000 ft/lbs before it even got to 150 yds! In spite of the slower M.V. the 250gr load does what I want - and I admit to being surprised. Even the drop on the targets surprised me as well as the groups. I wasn't sure the computer was right (doubted it all the way home). I plugged in the #'s in a ballistic calculator and it looks like the data is accurate. Here's what I got:
200 grain Hornady M.V. 2429 average
100 yards = +2.75 inches on target, 2190 fps, 2146 ft/lbs - groups average 2 inches
200 yards = zero inches on the target, 1988 fps, 1748 ft/lbs - groups average 5.5 inches
300 yards = - 11/75 inches on target, 1782 fps, 1415 ft/lbs - groups average 9.75 inches
250 grain Winchester Factory load M.V. 2308 fps
100 yard = +3.00 inches on target, 2100 fps, 2500 ft/lbs - groups average 1.5 inches
200 yard = zero inches on target, 1958 fps, 2128 ft/lbs - groups average 4.25 inches
300 yard = -12.25 inches on target, 1787 fps, 1795 ft/lbs - groups average 8.25 inches
As you can see, the two different bullet weights fly within .75 inches trajectory of one another out to 300 yards. The heavier 250 gr is only 90 and 30 fps slower at 100 and 200 yds but 5 fps faster at 300. The biggy is the ft/lbs - the heavier bullet exceeds the light by 354, 380 and 380 ft/lbs respectively. The felt recoil seemed about the same. Many of the heavier bullet are intended for the faster .358's so they should act tougher at the somewhat slower velocity, maybe expanding in a more controlled manner but still with great penetration. I almost made the wrong bullet choice here by speculating. Actually knowing what's going on ballistically is fantastic information to make a real comparison.
200 grain Hornady M.V. 2429 average
100 yards = +2.75 inches on target, 2190 fps, 2146 ft/lbs - groups average 2 inches
200 yards = zero inches on the target, 1988 fps, 1748 ft/lbs - groups average 5.5 inches
300 yards = - 11/75 inches on target, 1782 fps, 1415 ft/lbs - groups average 9.75 inches
250 grain Winchester Factory load M.V. 2308 fps
100 yard = +3.00 inches on target, 2100 fps, 2500 ft/lbs - groups average 1.5 inches
200 yard = zero inches on target, 1958 fps, 2128 ft/lbs - groups average 4.25 inches
300 yard = -12.25 inches on target, 1787 fps, 1795 ft/lbs - groups average 8.25 inches
As you can see, the two different bullet weights fly within .75 inches trajectory of one another out to 300 yards. The heavier 250 gr is only 90 and 30 fps slower at 100 and 200 yds but 5 fps faster at 300. The biggy is the ft/lbs - the heavier bullet exceeds the light by 354, 380 and 380 ft/lbs respectively. The felt recoil seemed about the same. Many of the heavier bullet are intended for the faster .358's so they should act tougher at the somewhat slower velocity, maybe expanding in a more controlled manner but still with great penetration. I almost made the wrong bullet choice here by speculating. Actually knowing what's going on ballistically is fantastic information to make a real comparison.
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http://www.TARSPORTING.com
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NRA - Life Member
NAHC - Trophy Life Member
DWWC - Member
Re: I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
Great info Joe....many thanks. I need to really extend the distances I shoot at with my 356 Win. What 250 Gr. factory loads I do have seem to shoot to the same POA as my 200 grainers, but I have never shot them out past 100 yards. Recoil, as noted, seems to be not too much increased with the 250's.
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Re: I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
Great information and that range sounds like it's a great tool too. I'm not surprised at your findings as once again it's demonstrated that heavier bullets do better at longer ranges than lighter ones. They carry a greater percentage of their speed (due in large part to their higher ballistic coefficient and sectional density), have more momentum, perform better in the wind, and penetrate better than lighter, faster bullets of a given caliber.
The recoil similarity isn't surprising either as the lighter bullet has a larger charge with it's resultant increased recoil and blast over the a smaller charge which tends to even out one's recoil preceptions.
The recoil similarity isn't surprising either as the lighter bullet has a larger charge with it's resultant increased recoil and blast over the a smaller charge which tends to even out one's recoil preceptions.
Steve
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Re: I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
So more is better!
Nice one Joe and thanks for sharing.
Nath.
Nice one Joe and thanks for sharing.
Nath.
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Re: I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
Some folks kind of disrespect the 'new-fangled' ballistics software for the kinds of predictions and comparisons you make, but I think that to really get best results, you have to use both 'field' experience, as well as 'computerized' ballistic stuff. While nothing beats real-world experience, the ballistics software can be enlightening and very useful...! It at least gives you a starting point for deciding what loads and sight-in distances you may want to investigate afield.
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Re: I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
Ok, that settles it!
I have been going back and forth on which bullet mould to get for Puzzle Eight, a 205 gr. or a 245gr. The barrel is .356 Winchester (basically a rimmed .358 with a more contrained OAL).
I want it to be a 300 yard big gritter killer.
I have been going back and forth on which bullet mould to get for Puzzle Eight, a 205 gr. or a 245gr. The barrel is .356 Winchester (basically a rimmed .358 with a more contrained OAL).
I want it to be a 300 yard big gritter killer.
Re: I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
20cows wrote:Ok, that settles it!
I have been going back and forth on which bullet mould to get for Puzzle Eight, a 205 gr. or a 245gr. The barrel is .356 Winchester (basically a rimmed .358 with a more contrained OAL).
I want it to be a 300 yard big gritter killer.
Finding a 356 Win. cast bullet is a bit tricky at this weight, one that will not protrude down past the neck into the case body and also feed/cycle. Don't mean to go OT on this thread but thought I would mention that 20 Cows, before you lay down the cash. The Beartooth 210 works great and is accurate, and has a wide meplat. It JUST fits to where the bullet base is not exposed, and will still cycle and feed fine. I've not tried the Saeco 245 gr. design but from memory thought it would not work, doing the math on the dimensions. Have to revisit that design as I've always wanted to shoot the heavier weight 245-250 gr. in cast as well.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Re: I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
I was (am) looking for the same thing. A "possible" 300 yd elk/moose cartridge, in a lever action and one that the recoil is manageable enough to be shootable.
I settled on the Marlin 338ME. Hate the only bullet available, but evidently no one gives a stuff about that. Can't find anyone to even respond to inquiries about making me one.(except some cast bullets)
I would not mind a Marlin ER in 356, just the price of them and availablity in time to go moose hunting.
Semi interested in the BLR in .358, but the recoil concerns me, and most likely would need trigger worked on as well.
If I would go with a bolt action it would be in 35 Whelen.
I settled on the Marlin 338ME. Hate the only bullet available, but evidently no one gives a stuff about that. Can't find anyone to even respond to inquiries about making me one.(except some cast bullets)
I would not mind a Marlin ER in 356, just the price of them and availablity in time to go moose hunting.
Semi interested in the BLR in .358, but the recoil concerns me, and most likely would need trigger worked on as well.
If I would go with a bolt action it would be in 35 Whelen.
Re: I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
I figured to solve the OAL problem with a Lee factory crimp die.
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Re: I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
I have been loading the 200 gr Hornady FTX in the 358 win.. , with great results on whitetail deer.. should have a better bc than the round nose bullets.. don't have my data with me, but try it out... hth...Les
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Re: I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
Great info. Your results didn't surprise me, as the 200 gr. bullets just seem to die after 200 or so yards.
Some years back, I began to seriously reload for my .358. I wanted a legitimate 300 yard elk cartridge. Today, my most commonly used loads are the 225 Sie., 225 Partition, & 250 Speer(both HotCore & Grand Slam). Initial velocities are 2500+ & 2400+, respectively.
Jim
Some years back, I began to seriously reload for my .358. I wanted a legitimate 300 yard elk cartridge. Today, my most commonly used loads are the 225 Sie., 225 Partition, & 250 Speer(both HotCore & Grand Slam). Initial velocities are 2500+ & 2400+, respectively.
Jim
Re: I got a lesson in long range shooting ballistics ...
If the bullet base extends below the shoulder, and the bullet has a gas check, it may cause problems. Perhaps someone else can give better info, but I've seen comments that when gas checks are used and the base is below the neck, the gas check can be dislodged or blown off upon firing and cause a bore obstruction. I've heard some say they do it and haven't had trouble, was wondering if it's a valid concern tho. It would only take once to have a bad day.20cows wrote:I figured to solve the OAL problem with a Lee factory crimp die.
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Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?