Pedersoli 1886/71
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Pedersoli 1886/71
Henry McCann was wondering on the post about 71's if anyone had heard anything about the Pedersoli 1886/71. lookin at their site they now include a delux version. they do have a nice parts list and exploded view of the rifle. I sent them an e-mail and we will have to wait and see if they reply.http://pedersoli.bizonweb.it/tipologia- ... 86-71.html
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
The exploded view is quite interesting. The gun has a one piece trigger/sear and one piece firing pin, unlike the Browning and Winchester Mirokus. I have yet to see one of these, but a Deluxe sure would be nice.
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
Too Cool Mike. You were Exactly the Guy I was thinking of when I posted this.I sure hope these come out before My hair is totally white. .
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
That deluxe version is a looker. Any published pricing? 1886.
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
Aye, my question exactly! I think one would look nice next to the Browning octagon barreled rifle! And the fact that it's a .45-70 also is a plus!1886 wrote:That deluxe version is a looker. Any published pricing? 1886.
Griff,
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
It's difficult to tell from the photo , but it appears that the gun has a slender forend like the original '86s. I'm liking it better each time I see it.
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- Rube Burrows
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
Sure is a beauty.
I have a question though.....for you 86 guys.
Why called the 86/71 and produced from 1936-1957?
I guess in 1871 is when the improvements came about......but what took them so long to get them produced?
I have a question though.....for you 86 guys.
Why called the 86/71 and produced from 1936-1957?
I guess in 1871 is when the improvements came about......but what took them so long to get them produced?
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
First it is called 86/71 because they used the same action
Second for all who wondered about price well it is not that bad
http://www.oldwestguns.ca/index.php?pag ... object=351
Second for all who wondered about price well it is not that bad
http://www.oldwestguns.ca/index.php?pag ... object=351
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
Okay, so which is it, an 1886 or a Model 71. They were not the same action. Even though they look and function similar, the 71 action is changed from the original 1886.
Always Drink Upstream From The Herd
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
The Winchester model 71 was introduced in 1936, and was going to be called the 1886 jubalee but Wichester decided to change the way they listed their guns, and so they called it the 71, the design came along after the design for the Winchester Model 70, but the gun was actualy introduced to the public before the model 70, so the model number has nothing to do with the year it was introduced, or developed.Rube Burrows wrote:Sure is a beauty.
I have a question though.....for you 86 guys.
Why called the 86/71 and produced from 1936-1957?
I guess in 1871 is when the improvements came about......but what took them so long to get them produced?
I hope this helps.
Terry
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
No kidding, if I owned one I would call it my 1886 extra light, pistol gripped rifle, because of the caliber...but that's just me!SJPrice wrote:Okay, so which is it, an 1886 or a Model 71. They were not the same action. Even though they look and function similar, the 71 action is changed from the original 1886.
But I guess it could be like double mint gum, you get two, two, two guns in one.
Terry
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
TMair wrote:The Winchester model 71 was introduced in 1936, and was going to be called the 1886 jubalee but Wichester decided to change the way they listed their guns, and so they called it the 71, the design came along after the design for the Winchester Model 70, but the gun was actualy introduced to the public before the model 70, so the model number has nothing to do with the year it was introduced, or developed.Rube Burrows wrote:Sure is a beauty.
I have a question though.....for you 86 guys.
Why called the 86/71 and produced from 1936-1957?
I guess in 1871 is when the improvements came about......but what took them so long to get them produced?
I hope this helps.
Terry
It does, thanks.
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
WOW!! $2188??? When the price gets a little better I will consider it, but right now it's very close to the cost of original EL .45-70s when they are "reality" priced. They are most certainly not rare but everyone is in the "fishing" business these days and automatically assign them a pie in the sky value.
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
shdwlkr wrote: Second for all who wondered about price well it is not that bad
http://www.oldwestguns.ca/index.php?pag ... object=351
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
.45colt,
Thanks for starting this thread. Sure is a looker. I love my Browning and at $2000 I will probably just find another Browning, but I sure would love one in .45-70.
Thanks for starting this thread. Sure is a looker. I love my Browning and at $2000 I will probably just find another Browning, but I sure would love one in .45-70.
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
Henry,You are Welcome. It was rumored a year ago these would run about $1600,and I'm not suprised they are higher.maybe they will come down some as more dealers get them. Mike D,I can't rember the last time I saw an original Win EL for less than $3000. are they out there?
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
Some more information on the 86/71 issue:
Mike D let me know if I missed something as I got this from an article that I found a long time ago. No I didn't write it I just saved it because I like the 1886.
Before beginning, please let me state that some of the last produced Winchester Model 1886's (those made c. 1928-1935, and remember that some of these were made out of barrels on hand and "clean up" parts manufactured well before 1928) share a number of the Model 71's improvements.
Please remember also that Winchester itself considered the 71 to be an 1886. They introduced the Model 71 in 1936 as "The Universal Big-Game Rifle with the New 86 Golden Jubilee Action."
Improvements in the Model 71 over the Model 1886
(1) Steel: Winchester Proof-steel was used exclusively in the Model 71. This is a stronger steel, and it holds blueing better than the nickel-steel of the post blackpowder 1886's (those made c. 1900 on into the early 1930's). Some very late 1886's have Proof-steel, but note the caveat above about earlier parts used in final Model 1886 manufacture.
(2) Coil Mainspring: The Model 71 featured a new spring steel coil mainspring (vs. the flat mainspring of the Model 1886). This gave a smoother hammer action and decreased tension at full cock.
(3) Butt Stock: The stocking of the Model 71 (and of the Model 64) reflects the work of an NRA design team, whose leading spirit was Colonel Townsend Whelen. The aim of the stocking changes was to increase the good handling characteristics of the 1886 when used with the 71's .348 Winchester cartridge. The buttstock was made larger, with a higher comb, a higher & longer heel (which gave more pitch, which, in turn, gave more non-slip bearing surface on the shoulder). The comb was made large & well-rounded, with both the width & depth of the stock increased. Recoil effect was clearly diminished, and, like a fitted shotgun butt, rapid mounting & settling were improved. I find this to be very true when comparing my 1886 Extra Light to my 71's.
(4) Butt Plate: The butt plate design was slightly, but significantly, altered with a slight hollow and a checking pattern to help hold the butt in place during working of the lever while the rifle remained mounted at the shoulder. Again, I find this retention at the shoulder effect very marked.
(5) Pistol Grip: The pistol grip, with its short, deep curve, gives better support & positioning for the trigger hand and, so, helps increase speed in operating the lever. I personally like straight grips on two-trigger shotguns, but, with a powerful lever rifle, I much prefer the pistol grip. Compare the two and see if you don't think Whelen was right.
(6) Semi-Beavertail Fore-end: This bigger fore-end with its rounded profile helps in controlling the rise of the 71, particularly with 250-grain loads. Remember that many 71's were used in the Alaskan & Canadian backcountry in wet, muddy, & snowy conditions. Something really to get a grip on was a huge plus for the class of riflemen I shall call "ultimate users."
(7) Bolt Peep Sight: The 98A bolt peer sight is a very elegant and useful improvement in sighting options. Not all 71's have it.
(8) Magazine Tube Length: The "two-thirds" length of the magazine tube (present on some 1886's) improved overall handling, balance, & appearance.
(9) Beveled Locking Lugs: The bevelled locking lugs give a useful "pop down" safety indicator of overloads.
(10) Machining Quality: Examine & compare for yourself. The 1935-1941 DeLuxe's are the cream of the Model 71 crop, and they represent an apogee of Winchester's attention to detail & quality in manufacturing line lever rifle production. (Please, I am speaking of production rifles - not the special crafting of "Highly Finished Arms.")
(11) Trigger Pull: Compare for yourself. A special stoning step was added in the manufacturing process.
(12) Bow Swivels: Model 71 came with the NRA improved shooting sling, attached by quick-detachable bow swivels.
(13) The "Jam-Proof" Action: The feed was adjusted from the 1886 to accommodate the .348 cartridge, which feeds like the proverbial greasy sausage, even in a dirty or rusted rifle. (The Model 71's were used hard in rough conditions by backcountry riflemen who knew what a lever rifle should be at its best and absolutely needed to be when Mr. Grizz burst out of the slide alders.)
(14) The .348 Cartridge Itself: The .348, as an actual using cartridge, is a magnificent design, incorporating Gerlich's advanced ideas. I pause briefly to crepitate in the general direction of the overblown "back pressure" arguments that have been advanced against the standard .348.
(15) Weight to Power Balance: Optimized in this magical rifle.
(16) Lyman Gold Bead Front Sight: Supplied as standard, with hood.
(17) Quality Touches Throughout: As but one example, look at the checkering or cross-hatching on the hammer of the 1935-1941 De Luxe Model 71's
Mike D let me know if I missed something as I got this from an article that I found a long time ago. No I didn't write it I just saved it because I like the 1886.
Before beginning, please let me state that some of the last produced Winchester Model 1886's (those made c. 1928-1935, and remember that some of these were made out of barrels on hand and "clean up" parts manufactured well before 1928) share a number of the Model 71's improvements.
Please remember also that Winchester itself considered the 71 to be an 1886. They introduced the Model 71 in 1936 as "The Universal Big-Game Rifle with the New 86 Golden Jubilee Action."
Improvements in the Model 71 over the Model 1886
(1) Steel: Winchester Proof-steel was used exclusively in the Model 71. This is a stronger steel, and it holds blueing better than the nickel-steel of the post blackpowder 1886's (those made c. 1900 on into the early 1930's). Some very late 1886's have Proof-steel, but note the caveat above about earlier parts used in final Model 1886 manufacture.
(2) Coil Mainspring: The Model 71 featured a new spring steel coil mainspring (vs. the flat mainspring of the Model 1886). This gave a smoother hammer action and decreased tension at full cock.
(3) Butt Stock: The stocking of the Model 71 (and of the Model 64) reflects the work of an NRA design team, whose leading spirit was Colonel Townsend Whelen. The aim of the stocking changes was to increase the good handling characteristics of the 1886 when used with the 71's .348 Winchester cartridge. The buttstock was made larger, with a higher comb, a higher & longer heel (which gave more pitch, which, in turn, gave more non-slip bearing surface on the shoulder). The comb was made large & well-rounded, with both the width & depth of the stock increased. Recoil effect was clearly diminished, and, like a fitted shotgun butt, rapid mounting & settling were improved. I find this to be very true when comparing my 1886 Extra Light to my 71's.
(4) Butt Plate: The butt plate design was slightly, but significantly, altered with a slight hollow and a checking pattern to help hold the butt in place during working of the lever while the rifle remained mounted at the shoulder. Again, I find this retention at the shoulder effect very marked.
(5) Pistol Grip: The pistol grip, with its short, deep curve, gives better support & positioning for the trigger hand and, so, helps increase speed in operating the lever. I personally like straight grips on two-trigger shotguns, but, with a powerful lever rifle, I much prefer the pistol grip. Compare the two and see if you don't think Whelen was right.
(6) Semi-Beavertail Fore-end: This bigger fore-end with its rounded profile helps in controlling the rise of the 71, particularly with 250-grain loads. Remember that many 71's were used in the Alaskan & Canadian backcountry in wet, muddy, & snowy conditions. Something really to get a grip on was a huge plus for the class of riflemen I shall call "ultimate users."
(7) Bolt Peep Sight: The 98A bolt peer sight is a very elegant and useful improvement in sighting options. Not all 71's have it.
(8) Magazine Tube Length: The "two-thirds" length of the magazine tube (present on some 1886's) improved overall handling, balance, & appearance.
(9) Beveled Locking Lugs: The bevelled locking lugs give a useful "pop down" safety indicator of overloads.
(10) Machining Quality: Examine & compare for yourself. The 1935-1941 DeLuxe's are the cream of the Model 71 crop, and they represent an apogee of Winchester's attention to detail & quality in manufacturing line lever rifle production. (Please, I am speaking of production rifles - not the special crafting of "Highly Finished Arms.")
(11) Trigger Pull: Compare for yourself. A special stoning step was added in the manufacturing process.
(12) Bow Swivels: Model 71 came with the NRA improved shooting sling, attached by quick-detachable bow swivels.
(13) The "Jam-Proof" Action: The feed was adjusted from the 1886 to accommodate the .348 cartridge, which feeds like the proverbial greasy sausage, even in a dirty or rusted rifle. (The Model 71's were used hard in rough conditions by backcountry riflemen who knew what a lever rifle should be at its best and absolutely needed to be when Mr. Grizz burst out of the slide alders.)
(14) The .348 Cartridge Itself: The .348, as an actual using cartridge, is a magnificent design, incorporating Gerlich's advanced ideas. I pause briefly to crepitate in the general direction of the overblown "back pressure" arguments that have been advanced against the standard .348.
(15) Weight to Power Balance: Optimized in this magical rifle.
(16) Lyman Gold Bead Front Sight: Supplied as standard, with hood.
(17) Quality Touches Throughout: As but one example, look at the checkering or cross-hatching on the hammer of the 1935-1941 De Luxe Model 71's
In a free society the government doesn't fear its citizens
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
Oh yes. I might be picking one up soon for around $2400. IMO, NO standard .33 caliber 1886 is worth more than $2000, and I bought a very fine special order ELTD .45-90 last May for $4000. Just because someone is asking ridiculous prices for these guns does not make them worth it. Look at all the re-listed guns on auction and sales sites. No bids. Why? Minimum bids are often set at half again what the gun is actually worth. You'd think that they would heed the no response to their fishing expedition. The myth of rarity is also a factor. Some "gun appraiser" tells a potential seller that his gun is one of a very few and he swallows the bait, therefore pricing his goods according to what he was told. Not very many shops and smiths really have any idea of what they are selling, they merely toss out a wishful thinking price and hope for a sucker to come along. There is a local guy who has a bunch of 1886s, most pretty much beaters, but not one is priced under $5K. He will have them until he hits the dirt for the long nap. Gun "blue books" and "guides" are also a farce, with many flagrant errors and downright BS concerning Winchesters. I own exactly zero of such books. Not even Flayderman's is worth a pound of salt, yet many folks believe it to the Bible. OK, rant off..45colt wrote:Henry,You are Welcome. It was rumored a year ago these would run about $1600,and I'm not suprised they are higher.maybe they will come down some as more dealers get them. Mike D,I can't rember the last time I saw an original Win EL for less than $3000. are they out there?
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged"....President Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
From the looks of that recoil pad on the Pedersoli '86, it is built to handle some pretty stiff loads. That will be a serious big game rifle.
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cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
That's what I thought, and I really like the looks of the but stock on the delux, it kind of looks like a tropical gun to me in the but stock/recoil pad area.KirkD wrote:From the looks of that recoil pad on the Pedersoli '86, it is built to handle some pretty stiff loads. That will be a serious big game rifle.
Terry
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
Don't know if anyone mentioned this or not but looking at the images it appears that this one has a long tang. Can't tell 100 per cent but that's my final answer.
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
I would say that you are correct, kaschi. Another positive, but I can't quite get past the high price. An example will have be closely examined to determine overall quality.
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged"....President Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
I just saw that Cabelas has these rifles on sale for $1399.00. Still tough to swing at Christmas, but definitely down from the $2000.00 of last year. If it wasn't Christmas I would drive to Billings five hours away, my closest Cabelas, and buy one. As I've said before, I sure love my Browning 71.
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- Shasta
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
A guy showed up last June with one of these rifles at the monthly Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette match held at Hat Creek Rifle & Pistol Club in Burney, CA. I shot behind him and was his spotter, so I got a good look at the rifle. The quality of fit and finish was simply outstanding, and I was extremely impressed with the rifle. He did have a consistent problem getting it to feed loaded rounds properly from the magazine, but this may have been a problem with his ammo and not the gun. His ammo did look OK with no obvious defect that might cause the feeding problem.
He shot a twenty out of forty targets, which I thought was pretty good for a first-time shooter with a new gun and using barrel sights. He told me that he was going to install a receiver sight for his next match, but unfortunately he has not yet returned. I would sure like to try shooting that rifle!
SHASTA
He shot a twenty out of forty targets, which I thought was pretty good for a first-time shooter with a new gun and using barrel sights. He told me that he was going to install a receiver sight for his next match, but unfortunately he has not yet returned. I would sure like to try shooting that rifle!
SHASTA
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
Shasta,
Thanks for your post...glad to hear the fit and finish was so good. Makes me wonder why he had trouble feeding cartridges. His own handloads?
Anyway, one of these is on my wish list, especially since pre-Remington Marlin Cowboy .45-70's are in the $1000 dollar range now.
Thanks for your post...glad to hear the fit and finish was so good. Makes me wonder why he had trouble feeding cartridges. His own handloads?
Anyway, one of these is on my wish list, especially since pre-Remington Marlin Cowboy .45-70's are in the $1000 dollar range now.
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- Shasta
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
Yes, he was shooting handloaded ammo. I'm hoping that he will come and shoot another match so I can find out if he was able to figure out the problem.
SHASTA
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
http://www.cherrys.com/ped_cart.htm
I should mention that I had an opportunity to fondle one of these bad boys, and it is an exquisitely executed copy of the Winchester 1886.
I should mention that I had an opportunity to fondle one of these bad boys, and it is an exquisitely executed copy of the Winchester 1886.
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
I noticed in Grizzly's link that the mag tube on the "Premium" rifle is longer than on the "Standard".
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
kaschi,
If I remember right, when I read about the 1886/71 on the Pedersoli home page, they lengthened the magazine tube 2.5 inches on the premium so as to add an extra round in the magazine. I like the original magazine length, but if I was chasing big bears regularly that extra round might give me a little extra peace of mind.
If I remember right, when I read about the 1886/71 on the Pedersoli home page, they lengthened the magazine tube 2.5 inches on the premium so as to add an extra round in the magazine. I like the original magazine length, but if I was chasing big bears regularly that extra round might give me a little extra peace of mind.
"Be kind and polite to everyone you meet; but have a plan on how to kill them." General Mattis
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
You're right about that Henry! A full length tube would be even more comforting!
On a different note, I'd sure like to see this rifle in 444 Marlin. The extra few inches in barrel length would be better for that round IMO. They make a 444 lever rifle too. It unfortunately has a 20" bbl and is supposedly not available in the US. I recently wrote to Pedersoli and one of their importers suggesting they import it here. They would probably sell more here than everywhere else in the world combined.
When it comes to lever rifles/carbines and the cartridges they fire, I usually prefer the original chamberings. The 444 Marlin is one, however, that would be a perfect fit for the 1886 action. Maybe with a little luck, Winchester or Chiappa will offer one.
On a different note, I'd sure like to see this rifle in 444 Marlin. The extra few inches in barrel length would be better for that round IMO. They make a 444 lever rifle too. It unfortunately has a 20" bbl and is supposedly not available in the US. I recently wrote to Pedersoli and one of their importers suggesting they import it here. They would probably sell more here than everywhere else in the world combined.
When it comes to lever rifles/carbines and the cartridges they fire, I usually prefer the original chamberings. The 444 Marlin is one, however, that would be a perfect fit for the 1886 action. Maybe with a little luck, Winchester or Chiappa will offer one.
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
I think the feeding problem is common on these guns. I just got one last week and haven't shot it yet. After reading several posts on this subject, I loaded a few different rounds into the magazine and tried to cycle them through the action. None of them would feed. Cycling the gun empty, the carrier would not lift unless you "slammed" the lever forward with a lot of force. Also, the rounds coming out of the magazine tube would bind on the carrier and not come all the way out. I tried using several cast and jacketed bullets and new brass. Nothing fed through the gun. The carrier won't even lift unless you use a LOT of force to cycle it. I mean a LOT. The outside of the gun looks great but the inside is rough. Every case coming out of the gun has score marks on it from the rough edges inside the gun. Apparently for seventeen hundred bucks they can't afford to pay someone to polish the internal parts. It's going back for warranty work and it hasn't even been shot yet. Guess I should have gotten a Marlin. Everyone's griping about Marlin quality but at one third the price and the same quality, it's looking like a better deal.
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
JMiller, I am Sad to hear about your rifle.I picked one up at Cabelas last June and am very happy with it.the one they had on the sales rack I wouldn't have bought,it didn't seem right.they had another in the stockroom and I bought it. It does require some force to work the lever but all internal parts are well finished.I have fired about 60 rounds of factory and handloads with no jams at all. My shooting here came to a halt in August when the property behind mine was being logged and a sawmill has been setup ever since.
I hope they get Your rifle fixed and back to You in short order. Jim.
I hope they get Your rifle fixed and back to You in short order. Jim.
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
Harry McCann,
Are you serious?
That much?
Are you serious?
That much?
Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
Got to give credit where it's due....45colt wrote:JMiller, I am Sad to hear about your rifle.I picked one up at Cabelas last June and am very happy with it.the one they had on the sales rack I wouldn't have bought,it didn't seem right.they had another in the stockroom and I bought it. It does require some force to work the lever but all internal parts are well finished.I have fired about 60 rounds of factory and handloads with no jams at all. My shooting here came to a halt in August when the property behind mine was being logged and a sawmill has been setup ever since.
I hope they get Your rifle fixed and back to You in short order. Jim.
Cabela's called me this morning and aplogized for the problems I was having. They will be sending me a new gun and compensating me for the FFL transactions fee and return shipping. It was just a case of getting to the right person with my problem. However, I will make the drive in the future before I buy another gun on line from the store. It's an overnight trip going that far but it's a great opportunity to look at and pick up a lot of other stuff while I'm there. Thanks Cabela's.
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- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 4736
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Re: Pedersoli 1886/71
JMiller,Glad they are takeing care of You. I would'nt expect less from Cabelas.The one in Dundee Mi is about 3 1/2 hours from us in good weather. We get an inexpensive hotel room near it and make a "getaway" weekend. Keep Us posted.