Winchester 94 first year of production

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:49 am

I know someone who have a Win 94 made in 1894 cal.38-55, I don't have any pics yet, the seller said the rifle is in very nice condition, wood is excellent, solid, bore is good, action is smooth all original, bluing wear on receiver and barrel, the seller is a very honest person. He want $725 shipped for it, what's the price for a first year of production?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:48 am

Buster,

I don't know what the exact prices are for guns like that, but that price is less than the new Japchester 94s are going to be sold for. If the condition is what the seller says, it's a very good price in my opinion.

If you're looking to buy it, don't think too long cos somebody will snatch it right out of your hands.

Joe

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:07 am

Generally I've seen prices on 1894's in 38-55 going anywhere from about $1, 250.00 on up to ridiculous. If it's in the shape stated I'd had the money over and be gone so fast all the seller would see of me leaving is a whisp of smoke.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:25 am

Please tread carefully, since I've been presented with more than a few Model 1894's as "first year production" 1894) that were actually 7 to 10 years older.

Remember, it's been documented that the Model 1894 was introduced in August that year, with SN 1368 the last one actually delivered to the warehouse on Dec. 29, 1894.

You might want to check out this thread, on Winchester 1894 production dates:

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... om#p364026

Hopefully, the rifle isn't a parts gun (no reflection on a seller, who may not know what they really have) , and will be worth every cent (and more) of the asking.

.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:22 am

Wether its actually a first year gun or not, it's a good price if an all original early gun, and not even too bad for a good condition parts gun in original configuration (meaning it doesn't look like a mismatched parts gun).

Can you get pictures up to look at?

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:40 am

I saw an early 94 yesterday with octagon barrel, nice looking gun with a broken upper Tang-ugh- Price $1850 wow for a broken one.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:15 pm

Even if it's 5 years newer than claimed, in the condition described, that's a bargain!

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:29 pm

Joe Salter has one for sale serial No 5773 (item # 15647) is it a first year of production as mentionned on his site?

http://www.joesalter.com/

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:44 pm

Buster95 wrote:Joe Salter has one for sale serial No 5773 (item # 15647) is it a first year of production as mentionned on his site?

http://www.joesalter.com/

depends on your definition of first year, calendar year, or first 12 months.
by calendar no, first 12 months maybe.

did you buy yours yet?

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:03 pm

pokey wrote:
Buster95 wrote:Joe Salter has one for sale serial No 5773 (item # 15647) is it a first year of production as mentionned on his site?

http://www.joesalter.com/
depends on your definition of first year, calendar year, or first 12 months.
by calendar no, first 12 months maybe.

did you buy yours yet?

Not yet, I sent an email to the seller, but it has not yet answered.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:43 pm

Joe's '94 is not by definition a 1st year gun. The first year, 12/94, ended up at 1368. Salter's is 5773, which dates from August 1895. Not by any stretch a 1st year 1894, but it is a LOW numbered gun.

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:01 pm

Just contacted te seller no photos yet but he said "the bluing is worn on the receiver and barrel, lots of bluing on the magazine", how it's possible that the magazine is less worn than the barrel? Replaced?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:32 pm

Buster95 wrote:Just contacted te seller no photos yet but he said "the bluing is worn on the receiver and barrel, lots of bluing on the magazine", how it's possible that the magazine is less worn than the barrel? Replaced?

I have a theory that there are some minute differences in metal used and amount of "absorption" the mag will take vs. the barrel... and the magazine will often not be handled or rubbed as much as the barrel. Cleansers and cloth, regardless of what chemical or how soft, are still abrasive.

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:58 pm

Here are two pics and the serial number is 14692 not made in 1894 but 1895.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:38 pm

that looks like a nice shooter grade rifle.

wood's been sanded and refinished, i would not worry over the color diff. between barrel and mag.
the condition pretty much takes it out of collector territory. if the bore is ok, it would be a nice piece.

the manufacture date is more likely '96 though.

700$ + seems a tad high to me, but if you like it what the heck, it's only money.

on second thought it is still an antique so may be worth a few extra sheckles.

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:47 pm

Thanks Pokey for the very informative reply.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:01 pm

I find dates on old Winchesters can vary by a couple of years depending on what book you open.

The gun your looking at is worth every bit of 7 c-notes. Been played with a bit but not too bad. Remember, everything made before '98 is worth a 30% premium.

Here's an early one out of my box and I have been meaning to get a letter for the last ten years or so. Maybe this winter....maybe---------Sixgun

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:14 pm

pokey wrote:wood's been sanded and refinished

How you can determine that from the photos?

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:54 am

Buster95 wrote:
pokey wrote:wood's been sanded and refinished
How you can determine that from the photos?

It looks like it's been sanded from the line of metal showing on the upper tang, behind the hammer. The metal is higher than the wood. Comparing the metal condition and wood condition, the wood is in much better condition, so looks refinished, and should not be that low compared to the metal for it's quality of finish. In other words, it didnt wear down that much and still look that good. The wood should be flush or very slightly higher than the edge of the metal along the side of the tang and everywhere else.

The magazine tube looks replaced. There can be some variances in blue fade on different parts, tho usually the reciever fades first, often being quite silver looking, and the barrel and most other parts retaining their blue longer, often looking very good, and aging more similarly to each other. I've seen lots of older Winchesters, and none had that much variation in blue on the mag tube and barrel unless a part was replaced. The mag tube looks new or close to it. It could be "aged" to match better, or you could trade the tube for an older one.

None of this is to rag on it, just point out what the comments were about. All in all, I think it's a very nice gun. I think it's well worth the price, especially if the bore is good, and it's good mechanically. Look at the price of newer Winchester 94's that have nowhere near the character or history, and it looks line an even better deal.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:48 am

Malamute wrote:
Buster95 wrote:
pokey wrote:wood's been sanded and refinished
How you can determine that from the photos?
It looks like it's been sanded from the line of metal showing on the upper tang, behind the hammer. The metal is higher than the wood. Comparing the metal condition and wood condition, the wood is in much better condition, so looks refinished, and should not be that low compared to the metal for it's quality of finish. In other words, it didnt wear down that much and still look that good. The wood should be flush or very slightly higher than the edge of the metal along the side of the tang and everywhere else.

The magazine tube looks replaced. There can be some variances in blue fade on different parts, tho usually the reciever fades first, often being quite silver looking, and the barrel and most other parts retaining their blue longer, often looking very good, and aging more similarly to each other. I've seen lots of older Winchesters, and none had that much variation in blue on the mag tube and barrel unless a part was replaced. The mag tube looks new or close to it. It could be "aged" to match better, or you could trade the tube for an older one.

None of this is to rag on it, just point out what the comments were about. All in all, I think it's a very nice gun. I think it's well worth the price, especially if the bore is good, and it's good mechanically. Look at the price of newer Winchester 94's that have nowhere near the character or history, and it looks line an even better deal.

good explanation, sometimes i forget not everyone is on the same page.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:58 am

14692 is mid-year 1896. Sanded wood and new mag tube, but worth the asking.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:51 pm

Mike D. wrote:14692 is mid-year 1896. Sanded wood and new mag tube, but worth the asking.

+1, also, it has a round barrel, that's a plus, they weren't as popular as octagon, even tho' they were less expensive.

Being that it's a .38-55, unless it sez "Nickel Steel" on the barrel, that's a BP rifle, so load accordingly.

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:50 pm

Malamute wrote:
Buster95 wrote:
pokey wrote:wood's been sanded and refinished
How you can determine that from the photos?
It looks like it's been sanded from the line of metal showing on the upper tang, behind the hammer. The metal is higher than the wood. Comparing the metal condition and wood condition, the wood is in much better condition, so looks refinished, and should not be that low compared to the metal for it's quality of finish. In other words, it didnt wear down that much and still look that good. The wood should be flush or very slightly higher than the edge of the metal along the side of the tang and everywhere else.

The magazine tube looks replaced. There can be some variances in blue fade on different parts, tho usually the reciever fades first, often being quite silver looking, and the barrel and most other parts retaining their blue longer, often looking very good, and aging more similarly to each other. I've seen lots of older Winchesters, and none had that much variation in blue on the mag tube and barrel unless a part was replaced. The mag tube looks new or close to it. It could be "aged" to match better, or you could trade the tube for an older one.

None of this is to rag on it, just point out what the comments were about. All in all, I think it's a very nice gun. I think it's well worth the price, especially if the bore is good, and it's good mechanically. Look at the price of newer Winchester 94's that have nowhere near the character or history, and it looks line an even better deal.

Malamute and Pokey or any other experts, you should write a short list of tricks and advise for what you check when a newbie buy a lever gun (Winchester 94 in particular). I will not buy the rifle, I prefer an old battered but all original rifle to one semi-refinished, thanks guys for all your help.

dr walker · Post by **dr walker** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:00 pm

I saw a similar rifle at the last gunshow. It had a little lower number. The seller was asking more than double your 725. He did not get his asking price, but he did get over $1000 for it.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:17 pm

Buster95 wrote: I will not buy the rifle, I prefer an old battered but all original rifle to one semi-refinished, thanks guys for all your help.

now your just teasing us, right?

you may have to tell, where it is so one of these fellas can snap it up.

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:34 pm

pokey wrote:
Buster95 wrote: I will not buy the rifle, I prefer an old battered but all original rifle to one semi-refinished, thanks guys for all your help.
now your just teasing us, right?

you may have to tell, where it is so one of these fellas can snap it up.

Here http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/sh ... p?t=540445

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:38 pm

Griff wrote:
Mike D. wrote:14692 is mid-year 1896. Sanded wood and new mag tube, but worth the asking.
+1, also, it has a round barrel, that's a plus, they weren't as popular as octagon, even tho' they were less expensive.

Being that it's a .38-55, unless it sez "Nickel Steel" on the barrel, that's a BP rifle, so load accordingly.

A very few 1894s, except .25-35 and .30 WCF, had NS barrels in 1896. The BP calibers wore Bessemer Soft Steel barrels and the very few that were specially ordered with Nickel Steel barrels are great rarities.

I'm quite happy that octagon barrels are more popular with collectors; it leaves more of the good ones for guys like us, Griff.

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:02 am

The gun is sold but I'm not the buyer.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:15 am

Buster95 wrote:The gun is sold but I'm not the buyer.

I'm surprised it took that long. The asking price was more than reasonable.

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:59 pm

Rectification the seller didn't sell it, I just took it off, he don't leave guns on too long, I will make an offer for his gun.

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:59 pm

I can buy it for $650 shipped.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:18 pm

Mike D. wrote:
Griff wrote:
Mike D. wrote:14692 is mid-year 1896. Sanded wood and new mag tube, but worth the asking.
+1, also, it has a round barrel, that's a plus, they weren't as popular as octagon, even tho' they were less expensive.
Being that it's a .38-55, unless it sez "Nickel Steel" on the barrel, that's a BP rifle, so load accordingly.
A very few 1894s, except .25-35 and .30 WCF, had NS barrels in 1896. The BP calibers wore Bessemer Soft Steel barrels and the very few that were specially ordered with Nickel Steel barrels are great rarities.
I'm quite happy that octagon barrels are more popular with collectors; it leaves more of the good ones for guys like us, Griff.

Actually, I thought the NS barrels in .32-40 & .38-55 were not even available for special order until 1897. I'm gonna hafta look that up... don't wanna be accused of misinformation!

As for round barrels, I passed up a few in my day; before I read Madis and learned that the special order OBFM was FAR more numerous than the standard RBFM. And to this day I don't have a round barrel rifle in my collection. "sides, the octagon is better looking, and enjoys a better rep for accuracy.

Buster, buy it! That way I won't feel I need to!

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:22 pm

Malamute wrote: The mag tube looks new or close to it. It could be "aged" to match better, or you could trade the tube for an older one.

How rare are original mag tube?

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:40 pm

I don't think it would be too difficult to turn one up.

I have one, but the end is damaged. I was going to use it on a 22" barrel project, so would be trimming the damaged end off. I would be blueing it also,.....Let me look at it and see if the end is usable. You need an old one, I need a newer one, or at the very least, my old one is going to look new when I get it on the gun.

You could age yours also. It could be polished down some, and browning solution, perhaps alternated with cold blueing, could age it to match the barrel.

Just thought of something else. Mike Hunter may have an old, faded mag tube.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:07 pm

The early 1894s won't be stamped "Nickel Steel Barrel/Especially For Smokeless Powder". They are marked on the bottom of the barrel. The NS marking didn't appear with regularity until serial number 12000 was reached in 1896. After that all .25-35 and .30 WCF barrels had the stamp on the barrel below the rear sight. .32-40 and .38-55 rifles that carry this mark were most definitely specially ordered and should be snapped up immediately.

Both round and octagon barrels are considered "standard". Neither cost more than the other, but more rifles were made with octagonal barrels because of the popularity of the style. A carryover from years past, many hunters believed the eight sided barrel to be stronger than the round one. Standard length for the rifle was 26" and the carbine 20". Longer or shorter barrels, or barrels 1/2 octagon and 1/2 round are special order and add considerable value to the gun.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:15 pm

Buster95 wrote:I can buy it for $650 shipped.

buy it.

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:03 am

Buster, that 1894 is worth every penny the fella is asking.

BUY IT!

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:11 am

I just bought it, I will send pics when I'll receive it, hope I don't make a bad move

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:35 pm

Buster95 wrote:I just bought it, I will send pics when I'll receive it, hope I don't make a bad move

not a bad move, at all.

now to create some 38-55 loads she likes.

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:28 pm

pokey wrote: now to create some 38-55 loads she likes.

Yep

Buster95 · Post by **Buster95** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:28 pm

Received the gun today and I'm a little disapointed, as pokey said the wood has been sanded and refinished much more than I have anticipated, here are some pics.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:15 pm

You say you paid $650 for it? Not bad for what you paid. We collectors like to use the phrase "It is what it is". Take the mag tube off and soak it in vinegar overnight. It will come out "in the white". Then cold blue it and rub it down to match the rest of the gun. Or you can let rust form on it and wipe it down with steel wool to give it an aged look

Take the wood off and strip off that nasty shine. Give it a low gloss oil finish.

Or sometime in the future you may see a beater 94 or 92 for sale for like $300 that has real nice wood. Switch the wood and sell the beater. There's many possibilities here. Its still a low number 94 in a great caliber. Enjoy it "for what it is"

-------------Sixgun

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:51 pm

Sixgun wrote: There's many possibilities here.

boy howdy.