Scary Day at the Range and heartfelt thanks to YK:pics added

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:10 pm

Interesting day at the range today to say the least. Buddy called me up and I went out to meet him at the last minute to shoot 22's with our kids. It was the first time his daughter and son went to the range and had ever handled a firearm. So, we tried to turn it into some fun. But, it was testorone day at the range with alot of loud high intensity stuff going off, under a covered firing line. His little girl got really upset and had to retire to the plinking range for a little more success. Alas, there was the group of 8 college students huddled around an AR-15 style carbine set up next to us, and two other guys firing center fire deer rifles. So, she wouldn't get out of the car. I had to keep a serious eye on the college students as they did not appear to be gun people at all, and their gun kept jamming which made me more nervous.

So, it was my bud, his boy, my middle boy and me firing 22's. Everything went ok until the end. Decided to fire a few offhand out of the Marlin 39A before we left, but my boy said he wanted to fire a few first. He shot about 3 times, and we seemed to hear a report each time he pulled the trigger. About the fourth shot there was explosion in the action with bits of metal flying and smoke everywhere. I yanked him up quick and looked at his face and except for the shock he seemed ok. My buddy was to our left and his ear was cut pretty bad, and my son got two fragments of metal in his shooting thumb. All the metal seemed to come out of the pressure relief hole on the left side of the gun, as designed. The action was inoperable except for some slight movemtent, the action would not open. It scared the heck out of me to be right beside my son, who is only 9,and see this happen to him. He took it all in stride but I'm still a bit shaken.

YK's testimony about wearing shooting glasses has had it's effect on me and darned if I didn't make my son wear them. Sure enough, in the right lense , right where the eye is, is a gouge from a piece of metal that would have no doubt found it's way into his eye. So, thank you Jay.....my boy probably owes his eyesight to you, and I am as greatful as can be that he had his shooting glasses on. Thank you my friend.

Got home and took down the gun as the action was hopelessly jammed closed. I had to drive the bolt back with a cleaning rod but finally got it out of there. The metal on the bolt face had been peeled to the left towards the pressure hole. The bolt was ruined. The case head was gone but the brass body is still in the chamber. No ring in the barrel, but still not sure if this was a stuck bullet or an overcharged 22 . This was a Winchester Wildcat....recently purchased. Will posts pics when I can.

Overall, just thanking the Lord that my boy is OK. Wear those shooting glasses fellas!

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:18 pm

Sorry to hear about your tough day. Hallelujah your boy is not injured. You are a good Dad to insist on safety gear. Like I tell my kids, your life can change forever or end in the blink of an eye. Maybe you should mount those glasses on a plaque over your loading bench.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:21 pm

Thank you Dave! The shooting glasses have become a treasured keepsake today. My boy is going to store them away in box of momentos. We'll get a new pair of course!

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:24 pm

Sorry to hear of the mishap and certainly GLAD to hear it was no worse then it was

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:39 pm

6pt-sika wrote:Sorry to hear of the mishap and certainly GLAD to hear it was no worse then it was

Dittos!

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:43 pm

FORGET THE RIFLE... POST A PICTURE OF THE GLASSES!!!

THAT'S THE PICTURE THAT SHOULD BE CIRCULATED ALL OVER THE NET!

Not meaning to yell but that could be an important lesson to someone.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:06 pm

A prayer of Thanks is going up from this station. Glad to hear that boy is OK.

How's your buddy's ear?

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:50 pm

Glad things didn't turnout any worse. I too would like to see the glasses! I don't wear them as often as I should, perhaps this will make me.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:04 pm

Chris, I am SO HAPPY that your son and everyone else is okay. Just said a prayer of thanks. I think I'd still be shaking. I'd love to see the pictures too. Give your son a hug from me.

Whew...

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:04 pm

Hobie wrote:
6pt-sika wrote:Sorry to hear of the mishap and certainly GLAD to hear it was no worse then it was
Dittos!

yeah, me too.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:09 pm

Thank you for the prayers and well wishes fellas. It means a bunch. Spent the better part of the day trying to dig the brass out of his hand, but otherwise he's ready to go shooting again, which we should probably do quick. The glasses were new so we pretty much know the gouge came from the flying pieces of case head that got his hand and buddy's ear. The mark doesn't look dramatic but would have been dramatic if it had entered his eye. I lost my eyesight in my right eye in an accident so I should have been the poster boy for eye protection. This last episode has made me an unwavering convert to shooting glasses for all.

I guess it will take time to figure it out what happened, but will try and get some pics up tommorow.

Thank you again Jay.....can't begin to express my gratitude!

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:24 pm

Chris, you are doing the right thing getting him back in the saddle quickly. Glad to hear he is eager to go shooting again. I know Y2K would have hated having me (or anyone else) have to dig brass bits out of his thumb (he's not big into needles lately).

You need to save those shooting glasses FOREVER. Anytime anyone gives you flak over making them wear "eyes and ears", out comes the glasses and story. I have gotten to the point where I simply won't shoot with someone if they don't where the proper safety equipment. I always have extra sets of both in my range bag.

I didn't wear "eyes and ears" growing up shooting .22's, and not even with shotguns. Handguns and rifles brought out hearing protection, but it was already too late in some respects. Decided to start Y2K and my daughter out right, right from the start.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:33 pm

Glad here too that things weren’t worse...
I've still got a piece of a 22 case in my left forearm from when a round fired about 3/4ths of the way into the chamber of a Ruger MkI I was sitting next to when my pard was cranking off a few.. Later after we finished up & I couldn't find it poking around on my own...Docs X-rayed it & said leave it there... do more damage digging it out than to leave it be.. Just wound up with a shot for lock jaw...Have worn glasses since I was 14 so shooting w/glasses has always been automatic... But now my eyes have changed so I don't use glasses like I used to... Actually made it to the range recently w/o them... once.. Lucky for me they sell them there.. cuz you can't shoot there if you don't have any..80 mile round trip...

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:46 pm

I hear you Jay....will sure get him back out there. He told me on the way home "I'm never shooting that Marlin again!" We have had ejection woes with it and he was already mad at the gun, and this sealed the deal. So, will break out his favorite...the never fail 10/22.

Truth be told, my buddies boy was sitting near the vent hole and lucked out that he didn't get hit with the brass/bits in the face. His Dad was standing right past him and got it instead. So, a good lesson for all of us. Hopefully we can get his kids back out to erase their rotten range experience.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:58 pm

Rusty wrote:FORGET THE RIFLE... POST A PICTURE OF THE GLASSES!!!

THAT'S THE PICTURE THAT SHOULD BE CIRCULATED ALL OVER THE NET!

Not meaning to yell but that could be an important lesson to someone.

Yup. My dad retired from GE. With tens of thousands of workers, accidents were fairly frequent. They had displays of shattered safety glasses with accompaying stories all over the plant. Testmony to the value of the glasses.

piller · Post by **piller** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:36 pm

As someone who depends on his eyesight for his living, glasses are cheap. Eyes are priceless.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:03 am

WOW! Amazing, just amazing. And yes, of course I'm super glad that you and yours are fine. Sheesh!

My whole family wears glasses (why the Good Lord decided to make half of the human race blind I'll never figure....) and everyone wears polycarbonate these days for safety, but unfortunately the styles have trended smaller and smaller to the point that we all look like John Lennon wannabes now. It's ridiculous but style has its' price! At any rate, as a result I now make my chillens wear over-the-glasses safety goggles when we shoot. No one likes it but stories like yours just keep me steadfast on it.

Thanks for the report.

Cheers,
Oly

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:20 am

C.Cash,
Very sorry to hear about the situation but glad that everything is ok. PLEASE contact Winchester /Olin and let them know what happened. They may want to issue a warning on that particular lot number of ammo so that someone else doesn't get hurt.

Please let us know the lot number of the ammo that you were shooting so that those of us that have some Wildcat ammo can check it against our lot numbers.

Thank you for posting this.

w30wcf

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:55 am

Ysabel Kid wrote: I didn't wear "eyes and ears" growing up shooting .22's, and not even with shotguns. Handguns and rifles brought out hearing protection, but it was already too late in some respects. Decided to start Y2K and my daughter out right, right from the start.

Yup. My kid's had their own little "range bags" with glasses and hearing protectors in them from day one. They're both in their 20's and still have those same bags and use them.

Guardian Angels come in all shapes and sizes, some are from the least expected sources, and they need all the help we can give them. Really glad your boy's okay and hope the young lady isn't too upset to try again some day.

Rob

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:05 am

Glad you folks are ok. You men are the best

Nath.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:34 am

C.Cash,

Glad everyone is OK and the injuries were minor.

Now, to the Marlin. You said the breach bolt was ruined, how so? I'm very interested in what happened here. I don't shoot .22s much and have no experience with the Marlins.
What on the bolt was ruined?
And have you determined weather it was defective ammo, or if it fired out of battery?

Joe

dr walker · Post by **dr walker** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:17 am

Yikes, glad everyone was OK.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:48 am

Rusty wrote:FORGET THE RIFLE... POST A PICTURE OF THE GLASSES!!!

THAT'S THE PICTURE THAT SHOULD BE CIRCULATED ALL OVER THE NET!

That IS an important lesson to someone.

Fiddler · Post by **Fiddler** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:47 pm

Somewhere, in a college dorm room, eight boys are huddled around a pizza, telling the hair-raising tale of the "gun people" who turned a kid loose at the range with an exploding rifle.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:11 pm

Fiddler wrote:Somewhere, in a college dorm room, eight boys are huddled around a pizza, telling the hair-raising tale of the "gun people" who turned a kid loose at the range with an exploding rifle.

It's true! Still waiting on digital camera batteries to finish charging!

Will post ammo detail here in a few moments. Not saying what it was for sure yet. Since there was absolutely nothing in the barrel(it is abnormally clean when you look down it, and not a hint of damage), I am thinking I better get the ammo details out there in case. We may never know for sure, but I lean toward the ammo

Thank you again guys. Chris

Edit: ammo was Winchester Wildcat # on individual boxes are 20892 10006
number on the brick box is 20892 10007

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:20 pm

Thank God for no serious injury, and also to YK for the recomendation of wearing those shooting glasses!
Also to you dad for having him wear them

I bet your boy forever on will be a stickler for anyone when shooting wearing shooting glasses.
Prayers up!

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:25 pm

I am a personal beiever in the value of relating personal experiences as a tool for making people more aware of safety issues. I think I've told this before but it bears repeating.

Years ago when I was a LEO we used to get bulletins posted on the squad room wall whenever they came in. One type of bulletin that we didn't see many of was an officer killed summery. After all these years one in particular stands out in my mind. It was the summery of a Texas Dept. of Public Safety officer who stopped a car being driven by a wanted fugitive. The officer was rushed, overpowered, and shot with his own gun. The fugitive was in turn stopped by one shot from a 6mm Rem. fired by a passing motorist who witnessed the event.

Be safe out there.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:41 pm

Hobie wrote:
6pt-sika wrote:Sorry to hear of the mishap and certainly GLAD to hear it was no worse then it was
Dittos!

+3 toooo close

safety is always #1

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:59 pm

Here ya go:

This is looking at the top of the bolt, left side is peeled toward the vent hole....firing pin seems ok:

This is the chamber....brass is still in there, but case head was obliterated and no doubt was the shrapnel that went everywhere.

Couldn't get the glasses to photograph well, as they are clear and the camera wants to focus on what's behind:

Ammo was Winchester Wildcat # on individual boxes are 20892 10006
number on the brick box is 20892 10007

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:33 pm

I would send those pics to both Winchester (ammo) and Marlin - who knows, SOMEONE may owe your son a new rifle, and be thankful that they can get away cheaply.

Youngsters are resilliant, if nothing else - so get him back on the horse as soon as possible, and he should be good to go.

.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:44 pm

Pete44ru wrote:I would send those pics to both Winchester (ammo) and Marlin - who knows, SOMEONE may owe your son a new rifle, and be thankful that they can get away cheaply.
Youngsters are resilliant, if nothing else - so get him back on the horse as soon as possible, and he should be good to go.

Ditto!

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:09 pm

Yeah, after sending the pics of the damaged rifle, the glasses, and the wounded shooter and bystander to Winchester along with the lot number of the ammo, I'd contact Marlin and see what they had to say.

Since this rifle was problematic anyway, this just might the best way to fix both problems at the same time.

Again, I'm glad no one was seriously hurt. And I can see the scratches in the safety glasses.

Joe

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:12 pm

Yeah I'll get the pics to Winchester and Marlin Pete/Griff. To find out what really happened, where would you guys send the gun for inspection? An independent smith? If I send anything back to the manufacturer I am pretty sure I will never get the complete story, as they will open themselves up to a lawsuit(in their mind). I just want an answer as to what happened, and if any of this is the fault of the product, a new rifle or the rifle back in perfect working order.

Thanks Joe and all!

2571 · Post by **2571** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:24 pm

" But, it was testorone day at the range . . ."

Wish I could persuade some of my buds that it is not unmanly to wear hearing & sight protection.

Praise Allah this kid understood that proposition.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:35 pm

There are a couple of independent labs that are capable of that type of investigation. But, they are VERY expensive.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:52 pm

C. Cash wrote:Yeah I'll get the pics to Winchester and Marlin Pete/Griff. To find out what really happened, where would you guys send the gun for inspection? An independent smith? If I send anything back to the manufacturer I am pretty sure I will never get the complete story, as they will open themselves up to a lawsuit(in their mind). I just want an answer as to what happened, and if any of this is the fault of the product, a new rifle or the rifle back in perfect working order.

Thanks Joe and all!

How much of that ammo do you have left? I'll bet Winchester want's it back after they get the pics and info.
Here's something you might try; weigh some of the cartridges. If any come up noticeably heavier than the others that might be a clue.

Joe

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:55 pm

Just want to add another "glad everybody's OK". Phwew.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:01 pm

Maybe weigh the remaining rounds to see if anything weighs to heavy before you send them off.. you might see something wrong with a rim or a case in the process too..On the foto of the glasses... put a piece of tape by the damaged area... the camera will pic that up for better focus... Once again glad no one got hurt bad

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:09 pm

Thank you Ben. Almost a whole brick of it is left. Because of the crying little one, we didn't shoot much of mine. My buddy was shooting his own ammo.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:44 pm

J Miller wrote:Since this rifle was problematic anyway, this just might the best way to fix both problems at the same time.

I missed that part, what were the prior problems with the gun...?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:48 pm

C. Cash wrote:Because of the crying little one, we didn't shoot much of mine.

Sometimes a public range can be SO hectic and noisy and full of undisciplined shooters. That sure doesn't help when you're trying to get a youngster started out.

As grownups, we get better at shrugging off the annoying types, the loudenboomers, and so on, but if possible, a youngster should be started on a quiet range when they're the only one shooting, if possible, or just a few others, using rimfires.

ALL OF US should keep that in mind, and those of us fortunate enough to have a rural place to shoot (at least .22 LR) should try always to allow our friends and neighbors to use OUR range for those 'special' sessions starting a kid out.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:57 pm

It did have ejection issues Dr. AJ. All of this also brought up an incident about 2 range trips ago(I had forgotten about it until this evening) where I had a good deal of smoke coming out of the action upon the shot. I was a bit hasty in that I did not stop to look into the matter further. I just figured it was a sort of dud shell that didn't seal the bore and it had smoked the action. I remember thinking "what the heck was that?" So, I am thinking now that this gun might have had headspace issues all along. I sure hear you about the range and distractions....you've stated my thoughts exactly. In the over regulated North East, it is difficult to do.

mousegun · Post by **mousegun** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:07 pm

Headspace or out of battery discharge.

I have an old Remington 121 Fieldmaster purchased by my grandfather in '52 to go after muskrats in the dam at the end of a lake on his country place. This pump rifle had a nasty habit of blowing the heads off .22lr cases and shoving the case body about an inch down the bore. Since there is no gas vent in this rifle, the only path for the blast to go was down through the trigger lockwork so the only damage was to fingers, forearms and ears. Forcefully closing the bolt reduced the problem, but light bolt closure was a sure way to get a nasty surprise.

Seems my grandfather did not like to clean his rifle. There was a buildup of waxy soot in the camming slot cut in the receiver. The bolt wouldn't fully close unless really shoved into battery, but the hammer would fall - no safety hammer block when out of battery. A thorough cleaning eliminated the problem once and for all.

I don't think my cleaning problem applies to the OP's rifle, but it sure looks like headspace or out-of-battery discharge.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:34 pm

C. Cash wrote:...YK's testimony about wearing shooting glasses has had it's effect on me and darned if I didn't make my son wear them. Sure enough, in the right lense , right where the eye is, is a gouge from a piece of metal that would have no doubt found it's way into his eye. So, thank you Jay.....my boy probably owes his eyesight to you, and I am as greatful as can be that he had his!

Praise God - and this site - for good friends with great advice!

mav · Post by **mav** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:56 pm

Chris,
I'm glad to hear that your son is OK.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:13 pm

mousegun wrote:Since there is no gas vent in this rifle, the only path for the blast to go was down through the trigger lockwork so the only damage was to fingers, forearms and ears.

I wonder if it would be possible to drill a 'strategic' hole that would serve as a gas vent? I realize it would violate any warranty and all that, but it does seem like even a .22 LR should have a place for venting, kind of like a ground wire on an appliance, to get rid of 'excess' when something bad happens.

mousegun · Post by **mousegun** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:45 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
mousegun wrote:Since there is no gas vent in this rifle, the only path for the blast to go was down through the trigger lockwork so the only damage was to fingers, forearms and ears.
I wonder if it would be possible to drill a 'strategic' hole that would serve as a gas vent? I realize it would violate any warranty and all that, but it does seem like even a .22 LR should have a place for venting, kind of like a ground wire on an appliance, to get rid of 'excess' when something bad happens.

Good suggestion. I don't worry about warranty since the rifle is over 57 years old, but I hesitate to drill holes in it since it now commands prices ten times or more what my grampa paid for it.

The gases and brass bits vented down onto my right hand and left forearm and caused little more than discomfort and iodine sting. That's a lot better than having an ophthalmic surgeon dig the brass bits out of my eyeballs. Only real damage was to my ears: they rang for a week! Makes a heck of a case for ear protection regardless of caliber.

The real hoot is to get to pass to my youngest son his great grampa's rifle. It's a real shooter and he loves that rifle! Can't get any better than that!

My real reason for posting was to compare my results with the OP's. It sure looks like headspace or out of battery discharge to me.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:08 pm

The manufacturers will likely point fingers in both directions or ignore it.

I would measure the case that remains in the chamber to see if the round was entirely in the chamber. I had a similar thing happen with a Walther PPKs 22. Seems the chamber had gotten dirty and the cartridge did not fully seat and was thus not supported and blew out and took the extractor with it.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:23 pm

Thank you guys....very much appreciate the concern shown here and the info. I'm thinking that this was a headspace issue as well, not ammo at this point. I'll see what Marlin has to say and will report back. Thankfully, the Marlin 39a has that wonderful little vent hole that your talking about AJMD249, so alot of junk did not make it back into my son's face. A smart fella put that there for sure.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:30 pm

JohndeFresno wrote:
C. Cash wrote:...YK's testimony about wearing shooting glasses has had it's effect on me and darned if I didn't make my son wear them. Sure enough, in the right lense , right where the eye is, is a gouge from a piece of metal that would have no doubt found it's way into his eye. So, thank you Jay.....my boy probably owes his eyesight to you, and I am as greatful as can be that he had his!
Praise God - and this site - for good friends with great advice!

Amen John. We really tend to let our guard down with 22's...don't treat them the same as our center fires. We need to. Never gonna happen to me right?