30-30 - Thoughts on Minimum Power - Hogs?

[JohndeFresno]

A cast bullet load, a tad mild for hunting, out groups a factory jacketed bullet of the same approximate weight at 100 yards. It is becoming my favorite load. I need to recheck the results and film the target before bragging about how tight the group was - I'm getting older and I shot a lot of rounds, so I don't want to misquote the size.

The factory round was:
Remington R3032, 170 gr. SoftPoint jacketed, reportedly 2200 fps
Shown at far right of photo below

My load, shown second fm rt., below:
30-30 Winchester
173 gr. MontanaBW (0.309) FN-GC Lubed BHN 22
BL-C(2) (Hodgdon) 32.7 gr., Various brass
CCI 200 - Lg Rifle primer; 2042 fps MV Qload Estimate
Firearm Used: Marlin 336 Centennial, 20 in bbl

( Left to right - 7.62x39 124gr SP RN, 7.62x39 "Junior Doughty" load w/ Lyman 311041 LFNFNGC, 30-30 Cast load above (same bullet), 30-30 Factory (above)[ )

I love the load so much that I am considering using it, just as it is, outside of the Condor zone where lead is allowed, possibly for deer or moderate sized hogs, given the excellent portability of the levergun and the accuracy of the load.

But running the stats, it looks like at the furthest range I might use my scoped rifle, 150 yards, the velocity drops down to 1450 fps.
Muzzle Velocity: 2042 fps, ME 1602 ft. lbs.
Velocity at 150 yards: 1450 fps, ME 808 ft. lbs.

What are your thoughts on this load at 150 yards? Will it still humanely and sufficiently anchor a piggy with reasonably correct shot placement? Or do I need to bump up the velocity or even move to a (shudder) jacketed bullet at ranges between 100 and 150 yards? I would not plan on shooting at game, with this setup, at ranges exceeding 150.

[J Miller]

John,

Although I've hunted game with a rifle, I've never scored. So take this with a pound of salt ( inflation you know ). I doubt a pig at 100 or 150 yards will know the difference in velocity between those two loads IF you put the bullet in the right place.
Also you are comparing apples to oranges with the two types of bullets.

So, as an experiment I'd chronograph the factory 170gr load to see just what it really does from your rifle, then adjust your cast load to match.
You might find it already does match up because the factory quoted velocities are always from a 26" test barrel. You'll loose a lot going from that to a 20" carbine barrel.

Joe

[Hobie]

Back in 1977 we used the standard Remington .44 Mag load SJHP. NEVER shot a pig at so great a distance as 100 yards because such shots weren't available. At least I didn't or hear of it being done with my rifle. I would think that a legal load from a .30-30 would work well.

[JohndeFresno]

Good advice, Joe, and I intend to chrony this load - when it gets cooler!

Frankly, I didn't bring out the chrony that I had carried to the range because it was 104 degrees; and with my current post surgery medication I can't stand out in that heat very long - I have to stay in the shade or I rapidly get heat exhaustion. Hate to admit it, but facts is facts as we age and have folks cut on us an' stuff.

So I used the QLoad software that has been remarkably accurate in predicting similar loads; I'll guess that my load's velocity is pretty accurate.

The issue wasn't about the velocity difference between the jacketed factory round and the cast one, it was about my desiring a cast load that is at least as accurate as factory - which I've accomplished. But the velocities given seem a little light - but that is my admitted field inexperience talking. So - if the hog doesn't care and decides to cooperate and lie down, then I'm happy, too!

[Griff]

I wanna see some chrono'd shots on that Remington load outta MY rifle before I accepted that 2200fps claim... you should read that setence as though it's being said by YOU.

Your load may very well be out-performing that factory round in YOUR rifle!

TheONLY reason I don't hunt with my cast .30-30s is that I'm not sure about their expansion. I need to get some wet phonebooks!

[JohndeFresno]

Griff -
That was "reportedly" - got the stats from Remington's site!

I just wanted to set a standard so that I could find a round that shoots better (for me) than "box ammo" commonly in use. I'm pretty pleased that I accomplished this, and at far cheaper a cost.

Hobie -
I'll hope for shots closer than 100 yards. Time will tell. Accuracy-wise, this load set up with 2" high at 100 yards should work well for me at any reasonable range.

[Pisgah]

True story --

I knew a fellow who hunted deer and hogs with great success for 10 years using his Marlin .30-30 and Remington factory 170 gr. loads.

When he finally got in to reloading and bought a chronograph, the first gun/load he tried out was his 336 and his Remington ammo. He promptly swore off the .30-30 forever as having "not enough power"

What a dope.

[draperjojo]

I've taken 3 hogs in the 300lb size, and only one was taken at about the 125yd range. The other 2 were around 40-50yds. I've been shooting a 300 Win Mag and in each case it was one bullet and DRT. I've since then picked up a Marlin 30-30 with a scope and intend to use it on that size of hog. A guy I work with went after a 900lb hog with his break barrel 270, and all the first shot did was make it mad. I had some of the meat from that big hog and it convinced me to continue taking the smaller hogs. I have no reservations about taking my 30-30 with factory loads out on the next hunt.

[jlchucker]

What Griff said. I've never hunted hogs, but I doubt if they are too tough for a 30-30. A couple of years ago, someone posted on either this website or another, that a 30-30 wasn't powerful enough for the deer in his area. I believe it was California. In the firestorm that followed, lots of folks scoffed and posted pictures of game taken with their 30-30's, ranging from big deer all the way up to some African critters. A good cast bullet, with good shot placement, should do the trick on something like a hog, I would think. Cast bullets are capable of far better penetration that published stats would have you believe. I wouldn't use one of those storebought hardcast bullets though. Something properly fitted to your rifle, cast to shoot accurately with a bit of expansion should work pretty well I would think. Maybe if Griff works up a load to try on hogs, he'll post his findings.

[JohndeFresno]

...II wouldn't use one of those storebought hardcast bullets though. Something properly fitted to your rifle, cast to shoot accurately with a bit of expansion should work pretty well I would think....

Actually, this bullet is very accurate with my Marlin micro-groove .309 barrel. I plan to show some targets with some impressive groups after my next range foray. I did not want to exaggerate the groups from false memory; but three different shooters seemed a bit surprised at the groups at 100 yards. Probably part of that is the bad name that many have given the thutty-thutty.

This Montana Bullet Works cast bullet, with a hardness of approximately BHN 22 shows up as as optimal for stability and expansion for pressures of 28156 (90% max), given the calculated maximum strength before obturation of 31284 psi.

Since the max pressure of my load is around 33478 psi with the bullet and powder combination above, I think that the bullet might even be a bit soft; but it is lubed and has a gas check.

One reference for my line of reasoning (among others that seem to agree with each other) is written by a "Pro Staff" member at Jesse's Hunting:
http://www.jesseshunting.com/articles/g ... y16/9.html

What hardness are you looking at for being appropriate?

[El Chivo]

that measly 1450 fps at 150 yards is the same as a factory load in a .357 carbine at the muzzle. Would the hog die if you walked up to it and pressed the muzzle against its side and fired? I bet it would.

Also keep in mind some bullets perform better at moderate velocity as opposed to superfast. I think you are doing well to pick the accurate load over the fastest load.

[Doc Hudson]

Bear in mind I'm no expert hog hunter, I'm just talking about what I know from experience or observation.

My Grandpa Hudson used to slaughter hogs using the blunt side of an axe applied between the eyes, and I've always heard that a hog can be killed with a broom straw, though I'd never try it, and I never knew anyone bold enough to try it. When the hogs were especially big and/or bad tempered, Grandpa would use a .32 Colt Police Positive to kill them, usually with a single shot to the head.

Big Daddy preferred to use a Remington single-shot .22 LR to kill hogs, again usually with a single shot to the head.

I know quite a few fellows over in Mississippi who hunt hogs with dogs and use an Arkansas Toothpick for the kill.

Personally I'd consider a heavy loaded .357 Magnum or .44 S&W Special as the minimum for bayed hogs. I have no desire to face a hog's tusks with only cold steel.

In rifles, I'd say that nearly any centerfire cartridge suitable for deer and properly placed would get the job done, with deep penetrators giving an advantage.

IMO your .30-30 load ought to work well enough if you stick it in the right place. If you sick it in the wrong spot, a .460 Weatherby won't get the job done.

Personally, I'd prefer a heavy loaded .357 Magnum carbine, a .44 RemMag carbine, or a .45-70 over other calibers, but that is just my personal preference, and not to cast aspersion on other cartridges.

[O.S.O.K.]

IMHO: Will that hard boolit at 1450 fps go through and through the hog or at least through one shoulder and to the other side to touch the hide?. Yes. Will it drop the hog right there? With good placement, yes - I would say yes.

The 30 caliber diameter with 173 grains weight is going to give the boolit a good sectional density which will ensure good penetration. It won't expand at that velocity and may not even expand at 50 yards, but it doesn't really need to in order to work.

[Ben_Rumson]

About 15 years ago now I laughed when a co worker told me he went pig hunting with an M1 carbine. I told him the .30 carbine was too puny for hogs... But the joke was on me... He told me he had killed two 100+ lb pigs with one shot ( not intentionally ) using his father in law’s M1 carbine with fmj ammo.. The bullet passed thru the aimed at pig and killed one a few steps behind him.. I should think your ammo would be fine..

[FWiedner]

Take your .30-30 and put the ball low right behind Porky's ear.

If he goes anywhere after you do, it'll be because you're draggin' 'im.

[L_Kilkenny]

I've yet to kill with a .30-30. But I have 2 things..............

I've seen the wound channel of a .357 shooting 180gr Hornady XTP's on a whitetail buck. Show nuff get's the job done. This load was in a 4" Ruger and around 1200fps.

I've seen the difference between .30-30 Winchester WB fatory 150's and the .357 load mentioned above when shot into a full milk jugs. Not even a comparison. .30-30 blew it up (good show by the way), .357 put a couple holes in it and made it fall over.

I wouldn't worry about your load.

LK

[jlchucker]

...II wouldn't use one of those storebought hardcast bullets though. Something properly fitted to your rifle, cast to shoot accurately with a bit of expansion should work pretty well I would think....

Actually, this bullet is very accurate with my Marlin micro-groove .309 barrel. I plan to show some targets with some impressive groups after my next range foray. I did not want to exaggerate the groups from false memory; but three different shooters seemed a bit surprised at the groups at 100 yards. Probably part of that is the bad name that many have given the thutty-thutty.

This Montana Bullet Works cast bullet, with a hardness of approximately BHN 22 shows up as as optimal for stability and expansion for pressures of 28156 (90% max), given the calculated maximum strength before obturation of 31284 psi.

Since the max pressure of my load is around 33478 psi with the bullet and powder combination above, I think that the bullet might even be a bit soft; but it is lubed and has a gas check.

One reference for my line of reasoning (among others that seem to agree with each other) is written by a "Pro Staff" member at Jesse's Hunting:
http://www.jesseshunting.com/articles/g ... y16/9.html



What hardness are you looking at for being appropriate?

I have not measured the hardness of the cast bullets that I mold for myself, but my game bullet alloy is 9:1 wheelweights mixed with pure lead, using a Hornaday gascheck and Javalina Alox lube. My 30-30 bullet is a Lyman 311041, sized .309 in my Winchester rifle, and .310 in a Marlin carbine. I use this same alloy for 35 Remington and 45-70 bullets cast from RCBS molds. A friend who has a hardness tester once determined that this alloy is a bit softer than Lyman no. 2. I don't shoot Linotype alloy bullets in my rifles. I do use them in my revolvers, but these are for plinking, not hunting. As for calculating pressures, I've never bothered, since exact verification would mean owning some prohibitively expensive equipment. Mathematically extrapolating pressures based upon calculations from printed loading data would be, IMO, no better than an approximation. It would be pretty rare, I think, to exactly duplicate an ammo maker's testing equipment with someone's individual rifle. In the end, what matters is that you've got a safe load in the gun you're shooting. You say you've developed an accurate load, which is no surprise at all. If you recover those storebought bullets from media such as gel, wet paper, or even a target backstop and they've not broken up, you've probably got something that will work great on what you want to hunt.

[86er]

Grizzly Cartridge custom loads a 170gr hardcast at either 1600 or 1800 fps for kids/inexperienced/recoil-sensitive shooters. I've seen both of these loads work on deer and hogs although my observations were at 100 yds. None of the animals dropped in their tracks but they all died within a football field of where they were hit and were recovered. The way you worded your original post it seems that you have some reservations about the effectiveness of the load, particularly at 150 yds. I would make sure it groups well out to 150 and then practice intensely out to 150 yds. After that, I'd be dilligent at making a good shot wherever you think it needs to be hit. There is no reason it shouldn't work well. If you experience something out of the ordinary that is detrimental, don't use the load anymore on your pig hunts or re-think your range/shot placement. Give it a whirl.

[RIHMFIRE]

Take your .30-30 and put the ball low right behind Porky's ear.

If he goes anywhere after you do, it'll be because you're draggin' 'im.

+1 ON THAT....
SAVES THE MEAT TOO!

[Charles]

I would take your rifle and load hog hunting and never give a thought to whether or not it will be enough. If you do your part it will do just fine.

[tman]

About 15 years ago now I laughed when a co worker told me he went pig hunting with an M1 carbine. I told him the .30 carbine was too puny for hogs... But the joke was on me... He told me he had killed two 100+ lb pigs with one shot ( not intentionally ) using his father in law’s M1 carbine with fmj ammo.. The bullet passed thru the aimed at pig and killed one a few steps behind him.. I should think your ammo would be fine..

it's a wonder that the gun rags haven't outlawed that photo yet. second time i saw it

[JohndeFresno]

Thank y'all for the information and assurances that I am on the right track. As stated early on, my hesitation is based upon inexperience with shooting hogs - at any range - and I want to assure myself that I am on the right track before going afield. Like the rest of you, I would want a humane kill, not a crippling shot. I'll rest easy, now.

Incidentally, I did not mean to imply that I have the engineering background necessary for computing pressures and what not. But I do have a fairly deep background with the QuickLoad software at this point, and it has proven itself over and over to be amazingly accurate in its predictions with the loads that I have tested and compared against its software.

I have read of complaints with the software, but so far it seems that many who don't like it have made mistakes in entering ALL of the data, such as the actual COAL of their round, or changing the barrel length to that of their firearm, or altering the exact caliber within the many fields ("windows") of the software. The "devil is in the details" is an apt description here.

So my pressure figures come from this QuickLoad display - the commercially cast bullet is in fact a Lyman 311041, and apparently very similar to or the same one that jlchucker writes about, but possibly with a little more hardness than his home cast creation - yet apparently soft enough to deform. I guess I'll have to do some digging and recover a bullet the next time I go to the range to see what it looks like.

As you can see (From V. Smith's computations and those of others), the BHN 22 and its range is shown below:

Let's not be too hard on those commercial casters - some of them (like Montana Bullet Works) can put out just as good a product as the home-rollers, methinks!