Best .45 Colt Cast Bullet type - Levergun / Revolver?

[JohndeFresno]

Among you .45 Colt shooters and aficionados, what is your choice for the single best overall CAST bullet for levergun AND handgun use?

I don't mean the best company, but the mould type that you or your supplier uses to cast the boolit. Right now, I'm looking at the Lyman 452424 255-grainer, better known as the .45 Colt "Keith" SWC bullet.

Specific purpose - plinking, target, medium sized game (up to Wild Boar, not Elk or Grizzly), or two-legged critter camp defense. This isn't about heavy loads or magnumizing the .45 Colt. The general idea right now is around 255 grs. running mid 800's to mid 900's with a relatively soft lead bullet (BHN 18 or thereabouts). But I'd like to know what others are doing with their Blackhawk / Levergun combos.

What is your choice - and why?

[Terry Murbach]

THERE IS NOTHING THAT COMPARES WITH THE 454425 KEITH DESIGNED 45 BULLET. FOR A 45COLT SIXGUN IT IS THE DO-IT-ALL BULLET. AND IT IS A KILLIN' SUMBISCUIT IN FINE STYLE !!!
ON THE OTHER HAND IT WAS NOT DESIGNED TO GO THROUGH LEVERGUNS AS THERE WERE NO SUCH THINGS IN THE 1920's [ AND THEY'RE PROBABLY SILLY IN THE 2010'S TO BOOT AND I HAVE TWO...]. A 250gr LFN BULLET WILL WORK HERE JUST FINE IF YOU DO YOUR HOMEWORK RIGHT.
I WOULD NEVER COMPROMISE ON THE KEITH BULLET JUST TO HAVE SOMETHING THAT GOES THROUGH BOTH GUNS. NOPE. NO WAY. NO HOW.

[TedH]

I like the Lee 250 gr. RFN. Cheap mold and has always done well in my revolvers and feeds slick in leverguns too.

[brno602]

I like the Lee 250 gr. RFN. Cheap mold and has always done well in my revolvers and feeds slick in leverguns too.

+1 thats what I use and like very much and the mold only costs $32.00 that was a few years ago though,
I like to use 9.5 gr of Unique in both my Ruger and 92, I have had the Ruger for 15 years the the Rossi 92 is new to me but works well with that load.

[Lefty Dude]

Some lever guns will feed & function a SWC. My 92 Rossi 44 will, however some do and some don't. Marlin's have trouble. A Friend has a Winny 94/44, it feeds the SWC.

It kinda a toss-up.

Like Terry say's, do not compromise a Keith style design, for the Rifle. In a Revolver it is the Ultimate Killing design. In my SAA 5 1/2" 45 it shoots 2 1/2" groups at 50 yards on the bench.

[rimrock]

I'll slightly drift off topic to say I like the Lee RNFP tumble lube 255 in my Vaquero running about 900fps. SWMBO hasn't seen the light on allowing a 45 C lever, yet!

rimrock

[JohndeFresno]

Thank you, gentlemen -

I have always been impressed with the Keith bullet design and have loaded it in other calibers. But jams are not an option, so I will lean on Mr. Murbach's experience (and others here) and look into ordering two lots of cast bullets; the Lyman for the wheelgun and the Lee load for a standard load for both firearms, as advised.

I checked the Lee site and found the Lee 255 RF. Is this the one you mean - the one on the left, below? I couldn't find a "250" mould description.

(By the way, my next Levergun would most likely be a .45 Colt Marlin or that interesting little "Mare's Leg", so jamming might really be a concern with the Lyman load, based upon what is mentioned above)

[J Miller]

Keith SWC (Lyman 454424 sized .454") over 9.0grs Unique. That is my do all bullet and load. From wheel weights it casts out to 265grs. A very good weight for this cartridge.

It chambers in ALL my revolvers and cycles through the actions of both my Winchester 94AE Trapper and Marlin 1894 Cowboy. I had my Rossi altered to function with this bullet as well.

Sometimes when I'm in a mood I'll load it over 18.5grs of 2400. IF these two loads will not do what needs done, I NEED a rifle caliber rifle!

Joe

[Old Savage]

These are 360 gr Keith type bullets. They come out of my Rossi at 1350 and feed very reliably. They were loaded by Cowboytutt and are a special order - he can say from where.

[J Miller]

Fred,

Those are some nice looking artillery rounds. I'd seat them a bit deeper and add more crimp though.

What do shoot them from; this ....

Marine Artillery unit.jpg

Seriously, what would you use a load like that for? Derailing locomotives .... oh I just can't be serious right now.

Muzzleblast.JPG

Joe

[w30wcf]

John,
Another vote for the Lee. Yes, it is the one on the left.

I like the Keith bullet and use it in my handguns. But if I would have to choose one bullet for both the rifle and wheelgun, it would be the Lee. With its wide flat nose, it will harvest game as efficiently as the Keith.

w30wcf

[J Miller]

John,
Another vote for the Lee. Yes, it is the one on the left.

I like the Keith bullet and use it in my handguns. But if I would have to choose one bullet for both the rifle and wheelgun, it would be the Lee. With its wide flat nose, it will harvest game as efficiently as the Keith.

w30wcf

I have the Lee mold as depicted in Johns post. My only argument with it is that when seated to and crimped in the crimp grove it is way short of the 1.59" ± that's correct for the .45 Colt.
This may or may not have any effect on anything, but it does cut into powder space. I also wonder about it's feeding in toggle link action rifles.

Joe

[Old Savage]

Here is the pair but I use 250s with a 7.1 grains of Green Dot for the pistol.

[J Miller]

Fred,

On the serious side I have some 350gr SWCs loaded. I fired a cylinder full out of my Blackhawk and they really weren't as bad as I was expecting. Nothing to let your guard down with, but not near as sharp or heavy recoil as I was expecting.

Joe

[JohndeFresno]

Keith SWC (Lyman 454424 sized .454") over 9.0grs Unique. That is my do all bullet and load. From wheel weights it casts out to 265grs. A very good weight for this cartridge...
Joe

Thanks for the clarification, Joe. I was looking at a slightly lighter bullet (452424), the one on the upper left of this partial chart from Lyman. I see now the 454424 at the lower right of this display.

(NOTE: From Lyman online catalog - partial display, only)
Thank you again, all - great information. I also like the look of the slightly heftier rounds used by Old Savage, but I believe their intended game died out sometime during the Jurassic period.

[Griff]

I have several favorite .45 Colt bullets. If I had to pick just one... it would be the RCBS 45-225CAV. But I don't have to... so I'll list the ones I use most.



From left to right:
255 Keith; used for target shooting in both rifles and pistol. Doesn't feed well in any of my levers, but at the target range, loading singly, excellent!

240 JHP; Hogs, javelina and as soon as the opportunity presents itself a coyote.

225 Truncated cone; RCBS's 45-225CAV mold... used mostly for cowboy action shooting. Feeds in the levers (1860, 1873 & 1892), like popcorn thru a goose! Good sized lube groove for BP also.

200 RFN; I generally buy mine from Rucker Bullet Co. They are great in both revolvers and levers (all). Feed easily. I generally use them for CAS also. Small grease groove, fine for smokeless.

200 HP; Speer Gold Dot, used for self defense. Great in revolvers. Haven't loaded them thru a lever as there's no crimp groove to keep them from being pushed back in the case.

185 WFN; LBT (Lead Bullet Technology), mold. Great light weight bullet in the revolvers. Used for CAS. Tried it in my 1873 Uberti w/24" barrel... let's just say it hummed... tumbled before 25'; yet in the revolvers 4-¾" barrels, it's positively, deadly accurate! Only thing I can think of is that the increased velocity outta the rifle they were pushed too hard and didn't get stablized. In the pistols they're much slower and stabilize.

A new bullet that I don't have any real experience with (along with no pics - I know, my bad), is a 160 grain Big Lube™ for use in both the revolvers and levers. I just haven't had an opportunity to load a bunch and take them out to a match to evaluate. Haven't even had a good chance to get them on paper... time will tell.

[J Miller]

John,

The Lyman 454424 and 452424 is the same bullet. The 454424 is the older version. The newer version was intended for the newer guns with tighter bores. The older version is more flexible when it comes to various cylinder throat vs grove diameters and both my lever guns shoot better with .454" bullets.

Both bullets will weight out at 255grs if you cast them from Lyman #2 Alloy. Wheel weights always cast heavier.

Joe

[shooter]

+1 for the 255 Keith. There is nothing wrong with the Lee, though. I would try them both like someone else suggested. I also think you should go ahead and try the Keith in your lever. You never know, it may work just fine. If it doesn't, then separate them for use in pistol only and use the Lee for a standard load for both.

[.45colt]

The Lyman/Keith. if it wont feed thru a lever send it to Steve. with Elmers load of 18.5gr of 2400 it runs around 1480fps out of my Winnie. With Paco's top load of 29gr of 296 it shoots 1850fps,and starts to get your attention.

[DixieBoy]

I'll chime in and cast (ooops...no pun intended) my vote for the great RCBS 45 - 270 - SAA bullet. Soon I'll be casting my own bullets and this will be my first mould. As of now I've bought these bullets from Mt. Baldy Bullets and they've been great out of my Blackhawk.

One thing that I've noticed that I don't like about alot of the commercially available cast Keith type bullets: a "crimp groove" that more closely resembles a ditch than a crimp groove.

Take notice of Old Savage's first photo of his bullets. No offense to anyone involved here, but those bullets appear to have this massive crimp ditch, instead of a proper crimp groove.

I want bullets that, when I crimp them, the brass snugs right up under the nose of the bullet. It just seems that there's less room for anything to move around, and it's also just a better looking bullet.

The 45 - 270 - SAA features all of the stuff that Elmer Keith was after in his bullets : a nice flat bottom (not bevel based), square grease cuts to hold more bullet lube, and 3 equal length driving bands. From what Brian Pearce and others have to say about the bullet, this is a bullet that Keith would have been really happy with.

I've yet to put these through any rifles so I can't speak to that. But with 12.5 to 13.0 grains of HS - 6 these bullets are a really accurate load from my Blackhawk at a decent mid-range velocity.

Any others with experience with this bullet out there ? - DixieBoy

[J Miller]

DixieBoy,

I've shot the RCBS 45-270-SAA. It doesn't shoot any different than my Lyman 454424. Just casts a bit heavier with wheel weights. Around 280ish from what I've heard.

They are a good bullet with all the attributes Keith liked.

As for the really deep and large crimp groves those are for putting in a really heavy crimp.

Joe

[Old Savage]

D Boy - I think those bullets are hard down against the powder.

[DixieBoy]

Joe - What you said here is one of the reasons that I'm going to learn to cast my own. The Keith bullets that I've bought from Mt. Baldy were not as accurate as their version of the RCBS 45 - 270 - SAA bullet.

I have no explanation for why the Keith wasn't as accurate, but from rested shooting positions, testing both bullets side-by-side, I clearly had better accuracy from the RCBS bullet.

The Keith looks like it ought to shoot great, and I'll give them more tries in the future, if for no other reason than I don't want Elmer's ghost haunting me ! - DixieBoy

[DixieBoy]

OS - One thing I didn't like about the one version of the Keith's I bought (admittedly, too small a sample to base a firm opinion on) was just how huge the crimp groove is. I've seen other company's offerings of the Keith bullet that had a deep, but more conventional, crimp groove.

It is possible to crimp into the "ditch" type groove so much that you work the heck out of the brass.

Again, I've only loaded that one Keith type bullet, so there are many others to try still.

No offense meant with my comment on the bullets you photographed, but the massive crimp groove reminded me exactly of what I'd seen in the ones I bought. Hey, if they work, they're doing what they're supposed to. - DixieBoy

[Old Savage]

No offense at all. I have found with my rifle that accuracy seems dependent on .454 bullets. .452s shoot very poorly but these may be an exception because they are so long and loaded hotter and may obturate better.

[pokey]

and one more for the lee 255.

P3060384.JPG

[J Miller]

DixieBoy,

There is more to accuracy between the Lyman 454424 and the RCBS 45-270-SAA than just the brand of the mold. Bullet hardness, diameter, alloy, the gun itself (throats vs bullet dia mostly), bullet lube.

"Most" commercial cast bullets, even the Keith types are cast too hard. They don't expand to seal the throats or bore unless you really push them hard. A softer bullet will do the same thing and usually work better too.

If you will read some of the articles by Glen Fryxell you'll learn a lot about the Keith bullets:
http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=25

There's another article I'm thinking of but the title and author won't come to me. I'll think on it tonight and post it when I find it.

Joe

[Old Savage]

Hard bullets work fine if they are sized right for the barrel meaning a couple of thousands oversize.

[JohndeFresno]

OS -

Do you use those monsters because they have proven to be the most accurate, or because you want maximum hunting effectiveness, or because it's just a whole lot of fun to touch off that kicking mule?

[DixieBoy]

Joe - Thanks for the replies. I'm with you on all of the facets involved in getting lead bullets to shoot accurately, and willing to do what it takes to get there.

I followed your adventures with the forcing cone issues, on another forum I believe. Owning an inaccurate-from-the-factory Ruger Blackhawk left me with a few decisions to make. I could just sell it, and gamble that another .45 Colt Blackhawk (I REALLY like the Blackhawks) would shoot better, I could just say 'the heck with .45 Colts' and buy a .44, or I could take the time to really learn what is going on with these sixguns. I chose the latter.

Since determining that I was going to make this darn gun shoot accurately I've opened up the cylinder's throats, bought an 11 degree forcing cone reamer from Brownell's, exchanged e-mails with Iowegan (Terry's nemesis), and bought his books too. My last step is making the time to load up the lapping bullets I got from Marshall Stanton at Beartooth.

Some might say that all of this is too much, but for me it has been a terrific opportunity to really learn about what makes sixguns tick. I've gone from shooting patterns, to shooting some pretty nice groups from a sixgun that couldn't keep all six shots inside of 6 inches at 20 yards when I bought it.

The Mt. Baldy bullets I bought were their BHN 11 bullets, and they're sized .453, so they're a pretty good fit now.

One thing that I learned after reading something that Marshall Stanton had written, and then going back and re-reading it several times: If you have a good snug fit for your bullets in the cylinder throats, then obturation is much less important. That's because you've sealed the chamber throats fairly well with the snug fitting bullet. Much less chance of blow-by induced leading.

To me, this just might explain why some people get surprising accuracy from very hard lead bullets like the Laser Casts. If the throats are properly sized to start with (.4525), then a hard bullet that's sized .452 or .453 is just going to sit in there nice and snug - and straight - when the primer sets the powder charge off. From there our concerns are with the forcing cone and the barrel's throat.

The whole "slugging up" deal is to rectify a bad fit (usually loose fit) of the bullets in the throats. The problem with this is that you will get some leading, and I wanted to see if I couldn't get past that too.

I'm pretty darn close now, but after very carefully slugging the bore I know that I've got a slight constriction in the bore right where the barrel screws into the frame. Hence, the lapping bullets. I figure that this is the last thing I'll need to do to milk that final bit of accuracy I've wanted out of the Blackhawk. You can actually feel the extra resistance of the slug when you get right to where the barrel thread constriction is. So I know that I've got a tiny bit of lapping to do there. That little constriction is swaging my bullet down ever so slightly. When it's gone it'll be smooth sailing for the bullet going down the bore. Like it ought to be.

When I get a camera I'll have to learn how to post pics. After I'd opened up the cylinder throats and forcing cone, and gotten the .453 sized Mt. Baldy's I shot a group of 5 rounds into just about 2 1/2 inches. That's dramatically better than I'd had. But I think the Blackhawk can do even better.

I'll let you know how things go after the lapping rounds. Sorry for the long post, but it's fun to talk about this stuff with people who've travelled the same road. And these Blackhawks really are worth the effort. - DixieBoy

[Old Savage]

JohnDe, they have proven to be the most accurate so far. And for whatever reason they don't seem bad in my rifle, surprising. Cowboytutt loaded them up and ended up letting me have a couple of boxes.

[3leggedturtle]

The Lee 255RFN at 900-1100FPS feeds like Lab puppy in socks on a freshly waxed floor and slaps the stuff outta anything it hits. Have gotten groups of 1.5" at 50 and 3" at 100 yards with'em