Crimp Die: rolled or tapered?

[Scott64A]

I had anopther squibb at the range the other dya, and when I unloaded the cylinder, (directly after the squibb,) I saw on one of the cartridges, the bullet had moved out of the cannelure.

I guess I'm not crimping them enough, and want to know how exactly to adjust my Lee seat and crimp die from my 3-die set.

Do I have to take the seating part out to crimp?
I bet it would work better.

Trouble is, I have it adjusted to just before the cases start to buckle and it's not tight enough.

Any suggestions?
Yes, Lee carbide 3-die set for the .357mag.

[Chuck 100 yd]

The expander plug may be too large. How much pressure does it take to pull a bullet with a pair of pliars if it is not crimped? How much if it is crimped? Does the bullet have a very deep crimp groove?

I seat and crimp in two operations using the same die. You should be able to put a pretty heavy crimp on with the standard seating die( if it is a roll crimp type of die).

I would run an empty case into that die and set it down a little at a time and observe what type of and how much crimp is being applied.
Have fun!

[Griff]

I'm a believer in roll crimps. Inside the seating die is a step. This steps acts to "roll" the case mouth into the cannelure. In the photo below, you can see the step near the bottom of the channel.

By adjusting the die body up or down you can set the point at which the step engages the case mouth and rolls the mouth into the cannelure. The other important setting the one for the bullet depth. That setting is maintained by the screw (see the arrow on right).

By setting the bullet depth so the bullet cannelure is just above the case mouth as the roll crimp step is hit by the mouth. I only know one way to do this: by trial and error. I generally set aside 5 or 6 unprimed cases to find the right combination of adjustments for each bullet I intend to load. Once I get the right settings, I keep that "dummy round" to use in order to reset the dies for that bullet in the future. I then pull any bullets that seated too deep or too shallow. I don't as many cases now as I did 35 years ago when I started reloading. It took a while before I learned that slow was fast, and a light touch gave the best results; even with heavy crimps.

Edit: Forgot to describe my shortcut: When you have an empty, unprimed case, set in the shell holder, and run the ram up to the top of its travel, without the die in place. Without a bullet in the case, slowly screw the die body down in the press. When you reach a point that you have some resistance, stop. Then, slowly screw the die down about another ¼ turn, this will generally push the ram down slightly. This is a good point to start the test seatings. I set the bullet on top of the unprimed case, run the case up into the die. Don't force the case into the step, you still need to determine the bullet depth before you crimp the case. Then turn the seating screw down until it contacts the bullet. Then using a light touch, I continue the screwing down the seating plug until I feel the depth is close to correct. Then using small adjustments, I get the combination set so the bullet depth will be correct to roll the crimp into the cannelure. As you gain experience, you will be able to adjust the bullet depth so you can seat the bullet at the bottom or the top of the cannelure without any crumpled cases.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

[LeverBar]

Purchase a Lee Factory Crimp Die and the problem will be solved.

The LFCD will squeeze the cartridge such that the case will be a bit tighter behind the base of the bullet. Then the bullet cannot go back into the case.

It will also allow you to easily gauge your crimp's tightness, adjusting to where you will feel confident and safe that no monkey business is endangering your life. The bullet will not move forward with the proper crimp.

If you do not use the LFCD, are you sizing your cases properly?
If not, they might still be expanded a bit from prior use.

Try a roll crimp for the revolver.
Some say a taper will hold just as good as a roll in .357's. I learned that roll is for revolver, taper is for semiauto. There may be a new school of thought out there by now though.

Also, does your bullet have a cannelure or a crimp groove? If so, again, roll crimp. If not taper--you don't want to smash the bullet side.

Are your brass Winchester? If yes, you might want to get rid of them.

Last year we bought a batch of new Winchester 10mm brass. Loaded several rounds. Could not get it to hold a secure crimp on the bullet! (This was with a taper crimp. No roll crimp allowed.) We tried everything, even asking on two forums how to solve the problem.

We ended up scrapping the brass--terribly thin, weak. Very unsafe!
Purchased a LFCD and Starline brass, and have lived happily ever after.

We do have Winchester brass for other calibers, but as I buy new batches, I first go to Starline, and then anything but Winchester (if I can avoid it).
This site has a photo illustration of roll crimps and a bit of information about the two crimp types.
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloa ... /crimp.cfm

[1886]

I agree with Chuck. If you are shooting hi perf. loads, jacketed or hard cast you will need an expander that is .005 smaller than bullet diameter. Compressed loads with slow burning magnum handgun powder such as H-110 require stout neck tension, powder compression, magnum primers(CCI-350), and a firm crimp for optimum results. Refrain from over crimping. This practice could lead to loading/feeding problems and reduced neck tension. One can order the smaller expander plugs or decrease the o.d. by polishing, a good practice anyway. Good Luck. 1886.

[Scott64A]

Trial and error, trial and error.

I sat down last night and practiced on spent cases that were the right size per my manual.

I kept having every other case get this wierd buckle, even though the mouth was not being crimped. I took the die out and disassembled it, and then cleaned it well. I got a bunch of shavings and case-mouth brass out of it. It functioned a lot better after that, but I still had to mess with it considerably to get a good seat and crimp.

If the bullet gets a ring squeezed into it, (and not just enough to crimp,) is that way too much crimp?

On the best practice round, I got crimp I could see by looking very closely and observing the reflection of the light on the very edge of the case mouth. These are not Winchester cases, they are Starline and some Magtech once fired.

I have a dummy round that is of the proper OAL, and it seems to have a good crimp to it. I guess I'll have to try a batch.
Maybe go over the ones I have loaded already.

[cnjarvis]

Has anyone tried mic'ing the case mouth after sizing and then running the empty case into the seat/crimp die (sans bullet) and then re-mic'ing the case mouth?

Wondered if that would be an effective way to "measure" crimp.

[Marlin .35]

LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Art

[LeverBar]

My buckles have been caused by not expanding the mouth enough--usually tears the case.

The common buckle and it is wavy-weird is too much of a crimp.

The link I supplied has a photo of a "picture-perfect" crimp. I'm sure you could find more of them on the internet too.

You don't want a ring/bump that comes out from the bullet up near the crimp groove. That would mean too heavy of a crimp. The crimp should be a beautiful, definite curve into the groove.

Are you using lead or are you using copper bullets?

I just remembered: If your cases are not the same length, the ones longer than what you set your die for will cause ugly, bulging cases up at the crimp groove.

Will you supply a photo or two?

[Griff]

Scott64A,
I think you may be belling the case mouths too much. You only need enough bell the have the bullet sit inside.

This case actually has just a little too much bell, but with RCBS dies (the only ones I have experience with), the inside of the die tapers somewhat before the crimp is set.



I don't know what Lee dies look like inside, maybe someone that has some can fill us in.

[handirifle]

Another vote for the Lee Factory Crimp Die. They are so easy to use. Use your sizind die, for just that, sizing and the crimp die for crimping.

In my opinion, the sizing die is a compromise crimp die. I've had several calibers that were never satisfactory at roll crimping, especially with heavy loads.

The Lee die will hold them whether cast or jacketed. Never buckle cases again, when you use the LFCD. PLUS you can actually SEE what you're doing cause it's open on the top.

[Leverdude]

when you use the LFCD. PLUS you can actually SEE what you're doing cause it's open on the top.

Not the pistol dies, theyre more like a roll crimp.
That said I use them alot unless its important ammo. If its important I'll trim everything the same & use the crimp in the seater. Rifle ammo I almost always use the LFC dies.

[Sixgun]

+ 2 million on the LFCD except on heavy lead bullets with a very generous crimp groove such as most Keith SWC's---then I like a heavy roll crimp.--------------Sixgun

[miestro_jerry]

For cartridges, I roll crimp, while others I taper crimp. Generally cartridgse that are straight walled, I taper crimp, but things like 44 mag, 357, etc, I roll crimp them. Except for my compition shooting with my M1A Super Match or my AR 15 HBAR NM, I roll crimp. The match rifles I taper/profile crimp.

Jerry

[J Miller]

A lot of things are being attributed to the Lee FCD that does not happen.

Here is a post I did on the LFCD, with pics and illustrations.
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts ... W=J+Miller

What it comes down to is the straight wall LFCD is nothing more than a roll crimp. It does not size the case when crimping UNLESS for some reason the case is over sized to start with, or you crimp it too much and bulge it. Then the carbide ring will size it to just about SAAMI max specs.

Bullets moving out of the case under recoil are caused by insufficient neck tension. The crimp provides very little retention of the bullet. It basically slows the bullet down a bit so the powder can get a good burn going.


For Scott64A:
I had anopther squibb at the range the other dya, and when I unloaded the cylinder, (directly after the squibb,) I saw on one of the cartridges, the bullet had moved out of the cannelure.
The bullet cannot move out of the cannelure, the cannelure is below the bullet. I think what you mean is the bullet jumped the crimp. This is caused by insufficient neck tension.

I guess I'm not crimping them enough, and want to know how exactly to adjust my Lee seat and crimp die from my 3-die set.
If you don't have sufficient neck tension you can't crimp them enough.
You may have to have a smaller expander plug to get the correct tension for the bullets you use. I'm not familiar with the Lee 3 Die sets, but if you can remove the expander measure it. It should be several thousands smaller than the bullet you are using. If it's not then turn it down some or polish it down. If you can't take it apart, you might need to buy a different set of dies. One which you can do some adjustments on.
Having said that, my method of adjusting my dies for crimps goes like this.
>I put an empty case in the shell holder and gently run the ram up to the top.
>Then I screw the seating die in until the crimp ring hits the case mouth. Then I back it off a half turn.
>Then I'll take a powdered case and seat a bullet. A little at a time until the top of the bullet crimp groove is even with the case mouth.
>Next I back off the seating stem, and adjust the seating die down until I get a full crimp. I want the case mouth rolled all the way to the bottom of the crimp grove. Go slow and you can do this without buckling the case.
>Then with the crimped round still in the die, run the seating stem down till it makes firm contact with the bullet.
>Remove the loaded round and without disturbing the die load another one. Check the cartridge and if the crimp and seating depth are to your likeing, lock the lock ring and stem nut down and load the rest of them.
~OR~
If you want to crimp in two steps:
>I put an empty case in the shell holder and gently run the ram up to the top.
>Then I screw the seating die in until the crimp ring hits the case mouth. Then I back it off a half turn.
>Then I'll take a powdered case and seat a bullet. A little at a time until the top of the bullet crimp grove is even with the case mouth.
>Then I lock down the die lock ring and seating plug nut and seat all the ammo I'm going to load.
>Next I back off the seating stem, and adjust the seating die down until I get a full crimp. I want the case mouth rolled all the way to the bottom of the crimp grove. Go slow and you can do this without buckling the case.
>Then just run all the loaded cartridges through the crimping stage and your done.

Do I have to take the seating part out to crimp?
No

I bet it would work better.
It never has for me. Just back the seater out of the way. All it does is seat the bullet, if it's backed off it doesn't do anything.

Trouble is, I have it adjusted to just before the cases start to buckle and it's not tight enough.
If you don't have sufficient neck tension you can't crimp them enough.

Any suggestions?
Yes, start measuring things, especially the expander plug vs the bullet diameter. Adjust as necessary.

Yes, Lee carbide 3-die set for the .357mag.
Don't know enough about Lee dies to comment about them. However I have Redding and RCBS 38 Spcl and .357 die sets and I don't have a problem with loose bullets, or crimps not holding. And I don't use a Lee FCD on them.

Joe

[Leverdude]

Hey Joe,

Have you actually buckled cases with a pistol LFC die?

I never have but I havent tried either. It seems more forgiving than a regular seater/crimp. I'v gotten an odd long case in a batch before & it went thru when I know I woulda squashed it with a regular crimp.

I know its a roll crimp & I'm sure you can crush one but I'm curious if anyone ever has.

[J Miller]

Hey Joe,

Have you actually buckled cases with a pistol LFC die?

I never have but I havent tried either. It seems more forgiving than a regular seater/crimp. I'v gotten an odd long case in a batch before & it went thru when I know I woulda squashed it with a regular crimp.

I know its a roll crimp & I'm sure you can crush one but I'm curious if anyone ever has.

Nope, I haven't buckled a case with any crimp die in years. However when I was doing that post over on Handloads.com, I did have a couple pucker just below the case mouth. The carbide ring just touched them as the cases came out. I guess you could call that an almost buckled case.

Joe

[Griff]

I'll add my thoughts on the discussion of crimping and neck tension. The crimp groove in any bullet design is there to really forestall any bullet setback into the case when used in tubular magazines and bullet jump in heavy recoiling calibers. IMO, the heavier a bullet you use, the more neck tension and "crimp" you need. Taper crimps are excellent in autoloaders and are mandatory on cartridges both rifle and pistol that headspace on the case mouth; and may work well in revolvers and tubular magazine rifles depending on bullet and load data.

Both neck tension and crimp work to keep bullet jump (forward motion under recoil), and set back (bullet collapsing into case under recoil from rounds loaded in front of it in a tubular magazine.

Taking them separately, neck tension is gained as a function of the sizing die, which "squeezes" the case into a minimum size to fit all chambers (supposedly); the expander plug, which expands body of the case and bells the case mouth to allow a bullet to be seated (supposedly without shaving copper or lead); and, finally the bullet diameter. Using 3 pieces of fired brass from my '73 Uberti Rifle, the following dimensions were ascertained at different stages in the reloading process:

After sizing and decapping: exterior - .463", interior - .443"; wall thickness at one point .010" (I did not measure the entire circumference for and ave., dimension).

After expanding but prior to "belling": exterior - .467", interior - .448".

After belling: exterior - .473", (cannot accurately measure the interior dimension of the bell is like a razor's edge as the bell changes dimensions, but I "eyeballed" it at ~.460, plenty to allow the bullet's base to fully sit inside the case mouth), the balance of the case interior dimension is maintained at .448".
Bullet diameter as lubed/sized: .452"

Those changes in dimensions are what is referred to as "working" the metal. Unfortunately I forgot to bring in a piece of unsized brass to measure and don't have notes from prior measurements.

But, suffice it to say, that after sizing and expanding my brass I now have a .452" diameter bullet that is going into a case with an interior diameter of .448". From a purely mathematical sense, I should have great "neck tension", even without a crimp. But... is it enough to hold a bullet in place under recoil or pounding from loaded rounds in front of it in a tubular magazine?

Only experience will tell. However, if I were to use a .454" sizer for my bullet diameter, I would still be able to seat them in these cases. However, it would provide for even more "working" of the brass, and a slight protuberance of the case where the bullet were seated. Therefore, I would either prefer a slightly larger expander die, and possibly a slightly larger case sizing die, as these would then "work" the brass less. However, since my Colt SAAs, EMF SAAs, and EMF rifle all are set up to use bullet diameters of .451-.452", I'm satisfied with my dies, both brass and bullet.

Crimping is, a matter of personal choice. Since I have been accustomed for the past 35+ years of using a roll crimp on cartridges that have traditionally used a roll crimp, I have found no use for any additional expenditures of $s for tools that supposedly "ease" the process. I will admit, that learning to adjust my dies correctly wasn't a 1st time deal. I ruined plenty of brass. And still do on ocassion. If it was easy, EVERYBODY'd be doing it. Reloading properly requires attention to detail and careful study of the failures. For, in the failure to do it right, you should learn what not to do the next time.

The type of crimp is almost not material to good consistent ammunition reloading. The amount you can reduce the variables to is what provides good, reliable, consistent ammuntion is made of. And the variables are somewhat finite. They consist mainly of: case volume, case length, powder and charge weight, bullet weight, seating depth, neck tension, crimp tension, primer consistency and in the case of lead bullets, lube application and applicability.

For cowboy action loads, I dismiss the case volume issue, as that is a more complex issue, depending on manufacturer, lot number and then measurement. For precision shooting, this is one area a lot of shooters fall down on, either they're not cognizant of it's effect, or they don't feel the results require the effort. Case length - is an important step in ensuring that the loaded round will actually fit in your chamber, more important in some calibers than others, in some guns than others, but you will not get consistent crimps without knowing that each case is equal in length to it's brother. I use a simple guage, trimming when they get to a certain length. (All my .30-30 ammo is measured after sizing to ensure it doesn't exceed 2.020", if it's a little shorter, it's ok. Sizing is the step that lengthens brass, so always measure after sizing, (hard to do on a progressive, but... once you are familiar with your brass, you can measure prior to sizing and know that on the average your brass will grow X thousandths.

Next is primer/powder consistency; about the only way to do that well, is to buy your primers & powder in as large a lot as you can afford, taking the time to check lot #s. Other than that, buy the same brand. In the case of either, watch for announced changes by the manufacturer.

The only way the ensure consistent neck tension is to use 1st quality tools, well maintained and checked frequently for said consistency. The same goes for powder weight/charge, and if you cast your own bullets, you decide on your own level of quality control. If you buy from another source, double check their QC program. After all, it's going to be your ammo, shot thru your guns. For bullets I buy, I check about 10 out of whatever size box I buy for both weight and diameter. Allow a for a variance, and if you don't think that's good enough, change brands. For my precision rifle ammo, whether the bullets, I weigh each and every one. I then group them by EXACT weight, and load accordingly. (I know guys that do concentricity checks on their ammo, to ensure their bullets rotate around the center line and will not yaw or otherwise affect the optimum bullet flight... can say rectally retentive? But hey, that's what floats their boat, have at it if you wish!) I don't try to adjust loads, I just note on the box what exact bullet weight is contained therein. Same goes for my hunting or target ammo for the Sharps and my .30-30 side match ammo, as I take those seriously. However, with my CAS main match ammo, I just do a QC check and load away!

Before you can KNOW what is causing you a problem in your ammo, you must be familiar with the tools and steps of reloading. First tool out on your bench when reloading should be a set of calipers. I use a nice dial set of stainless steel, NSK brand. But, there are more expensive and cheaper ones. But, I highly recommend that everyone that reloads have one.

I hope that made sense, or at the very least gave you some information to be able to better track down the root cause of problems.

Note: The above measurements were taken from the brass and not from the tools themselves. While a sizer die may have an inside diameter that's smaller than the size noted above, brass has a "memory" and will "spring" back somewhat after being sized. Therefore, it is important that you measure your brass and not the exact size of the die. For instance, the inside of my carbide .45 Colt sizer die is .460", yet the sized brass is .463".

[J Miller]

Griff,

It made sense to me. Every word of it.

Joe

[Chuck 100 yd]

WOW! Joe and Griff, you guys have just about covered it all.
I agree completely and don`t think I could add to it in any way.

[Scott64A]

Thanks to all.

I have a Starrett micrometer and I know how to use it.

I have reset the crimp and seat die and am good with the crimp I'm getting as of right now.
It's a smooth curve, just visible to my naked eye. When I view it through my jewler's loupe, I can really see the detail.

So to address neck tension, which I know nothing more than that it is where the brass meets the copper. (I'm using jacketed bullets,) I don't know how to adjust my resizer, as I've never had to with my .30-30 loads. I remember VAGUELY, (that happens more and more these days,) adjusting it with my dad upon first embarking on the endeavor of reloading some 10 years ago.

How should I adjust the resizing die?

I have had the belling die open the cases up too much, but through careful tinkering I got the cases to "just" accept the bullet. Does the belling die do more than just flare the very edge of the case?

JMiller, how do I adjust neck tension on a resizing die?

It's funny, I could be all discouraged with some of this mess, but I'm actually excited. This is a nice diversion from drug calculations and cardiac rythym analysis. I'm excited to learn something more about this process, and feel like I'm close to getting a good result here.

Plus, I love this pistol. I have shot many others, but after having relearned shooting on a true sixgun, my shooting has improved vastly in other handguns. I shot a friend's .45 auto at the rsnge, and even though I shot really well with it, it felt too disconnected, too loose.
Love them SAs.

[J Miller]

Scott,

You can't adjust the neck tension by adjusting the sizing die. Most dies are set to size a certain case to a certain diameter. Like Griffs example with his .45s.
RCBS instructions say to raise the ram to the top of it's stroke and screw the sizing die in till it touches the shell holder, then back off the ram and add 1/8 to 1/4 turn. This is for standard dies.
For carbide dies raise the ram and screw the die in till it touches. Any more and the carbide ring can be broken.

That is all there is to adjusting a straight walled sizing die.

To alter the neck tension you need to check the diameter of the expander.

If you are using .357" to .358" jacketed bullets the expander die should be about .353" or so in diameter. That should give you the tension you need for the jacketed and hard cast bullets.

I don't know what brand your dies are, but if the expander is removable you can polish it down to what you need. I've done this with my .45 ACP and Colt expander.

Joe

[Scott64A]

Thanks!

[Slick]

Purchase a Lee Factory Crimp Die and the problem will be solved.

+100 on that!