Unconfirmed, But A Warning Just The Same

[Joel]

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410512

From the link:

I don't want any legal problems with Federal Ammo company, Henry Rifles or the Shooter, but I will tell you what I know without assigning blame to Federal or Henry rifles or the shooter. You figure out where the problem is.
A man bought a full box of the new Federal 300 Grain, flat nose lead, factory loaded ammo manufactured by Federal.
He has a Henry Big Boy 44 Magnum lever action rifle that is tube loaded.
The man opened the loading tube of the rifle and dropped two rounds into the loading tube. When he dropped the third round, the round wet off sending the bullet through the bill of his hat and all the way through the roof of his home. The ammo was normally dropped into the tube.
The loading tube was blown off the rifle and the rifle sustained other damage. No one including the man was hurt.
Is it an ammo problem, rifle problem or the Shooter. You decide.
I was told about this by a gunsmith that the person who's rifle blew up directly talked to, so this is second had information.
This happened this last week. Use care.

[PaperPatch]

Likely not the fault of ammunition.

1860 Henry rifles have had ammunition ignite as a result of "slam fire"...which is, cartridges free sliding down the tube while being loaded vertically; impacting with sufficient force to set off the primer.

Remember...primers are impact sensitive.

[J Miller]

We have discussed this same thing regarding the 1860 Henry replicas several times. So the phenomenon isn't unknown.

Since this happened with factory ammo I'd be curious to see what shape bullet it carried because I've never seen factory ammo with a high primer. I've seen other things, but never that.

Joe

[Hankster]

But THAT Touchy??? Um.....

[Gun Smith]

There might have been just enough angle between the cartridge above and the sharp corner of the bullet below to snag the primer. Scary!

[Chuck 100 yd]

I tilt ,even tube feed .22 rifles, at an angle when loading. I don`t like the sound of those shells slamming together when they fall to the bottom. At an angle they slide down with much less force.
Live and learn!!! Don`t blame everyone else.

[AJMD429]

I tilt ,even tube feed .22 rifles, at an angle when loading. I don`t like the sound of those shells slamming together when they fall to the bottom. At an angle they slide down with much less force. Live and learn!!! Don`t blame everyone else.

Yep - just common sense (...rare, these days...).

Do you all think that if a round detonated, NOT being in a chamber, and only having a much larger magazine-tube for a 'chamber', that the bullet would have enough velocity to pop through the magazine inner tube and spring asssembly (unless it detaches), the guys hat, AND THEN "ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE ROOF OF HIS HOME"...?????????

I hate to be a skeptic about everything, but I'm thinking something else happened...

I'd think the pressure and velocity would just not be up to the task; when fellow fifth-graders not as 'savvy' as myself about firearms and safety, threw live .30-06 surplus ammo in a fireplace and it detonated (granted, due to heat, vs. impact), the bullets stayed in the fireplace or landed a couple feet in front of it, and the cases split and zoomed off whole or in pieces with enough force to dent, but not penetrate, a corrugated cardboard box ten feet away from the fireplace. The flying ashes and bits of burning wood were more the cause of the 'problems' which resulted than anything 'ballistic'.

[Griff]

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410512
From the link:
I don't want any legal problems with Federal Ammo company, Henry Rifles or the Shooter, but I will tell you what I know without assigning blame to Federal or Henry rifles or the shooter. You figure out where the problem is.
A man bought a full box of the new Federal 300 Grain, flat nose lead, factory loaded ammo manufactured by Federal.
He has a Henry Big Boy 44 Magnum lever action rifle that is tube loaded.
The man opened the loading tube of the rifle and dropped two rounds into the loading tube. When he dropped the third round, the round wet off sending the bullet through the bill of his hat and all the way through the roof of his home. The ammo was normally dropped into the tube.
The loading tube was blown off the rifle and the rifle sustained other damage. No one including the man was hurt.
Is it an ammo problem, rifle problem or the Shooter. You decide.
I was told about this by a gunsmith that the person who's rifle blew up directly talked to, so this is second had information.
This happened this last week. Use care.

Poor technique caused by unfamilarity. Ultimately, the man bears the responsibility.

[Pisgah]

Maybe I am unique, but I was taught at least 40 years ago that when loading a tube-fed rifle one NEVER drops the ammo freefall down the tube. Rather, you hold the rifle at an angle and let the ammo slide down.

This was not the rifle's fault, nor the ammo's. It was the shooter's alone.

[Doc Hudson]

I've not read the other responses so i don't know if others agree or not so here goes my opinion.

The KABOOM was the fault of the shooter, abetted by the rifle design.

In th original Henry Rifles loaded in a similar manner, this was never a problem due to the rim-fire ammunition used. I've heard of similar KABOOMs in centerfire reproductions of the Henry Model 1860. Some were caused by the cartridges being dropped down the tube onto a semi-pointed or round-nosed bullet which ignited a primere. I've also heard of magazine KABOOMs caused by the magazine follower being allowed to slam from the locked position onto the ammo full force.

I even remember reading Elmer Keith's report of a magazine KABOOM caused by a fellow shooting his .38-40 WCF levergun several times, then topping off the magazine and shooting some more. In Elmer's opinion, several repetitions of this made the recoil to form a primer sized teat on one of the soft lead bullets which eventually caused a primer detonation.

IMO, if Henry Repeating Arms has any fault in the mattere it is this. They apparently did not make it crystal clear that the rifle should be held at an angle of not less than 45 degrees when loading, and that dropping cartridges in from the verticlal can lead to KABOOMS.

I believe that any knowledgeable shooter would realize the possibility of this occurrence with a tube fed centerfire rifle.

IMO Henry Repeating Arms Company should be held blameless at best and at worst their liability should be limited to repairing or replacing the damaged rifle.

Federal Cartridge Company is not even to be considered in liability. Federal cannot be held liable for misuse of their ammunition.

[Kid Cossack]

Would the loading tube even form enough of a seal for the gas to launch a bullet like that?

[pokey]

I tilt ,even tube feed .22 rifles, at an angle when loading. I don`t like the sound of those shells slamming together when they fall to the bottom. At an angle they slide down with much less force. Live and learn!!! Don`t blame everyone else.

Yep - just common sense (...rare, these days...).

Do you all think that if a round detonated, NOT being in a chamber, and only having a much larger magazine-tube for a 'chamber', that the bullet would have enough velocity to pop through the magazine inner tube and spring asssembly (unless it detaches), the guys hat, AND THEN "ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE ROOF OF HIS HOME"...?????????

I hate to be a skeptic about everything, but I'm thinking something else happened...

I'd think the pressure and velocity would just not be up to the task; when fellow fifth-graders not as 'savvy' as myself about firearms and safety, threw live .30-06 surplus ammo in a fireplace and it detonated (granted, due to heat, vs. impact), the bullets stayed in the fireplace or landed a couple feet in front of it, and the cases split and zoomed off whole or in pieces with enough force to dent, but not penetrate, a corrugated cardboard box ten feet away from the fireplace. The flying ashes and bits of burning wood were more the cause of the 'problems' which resulted than anything 'ballistic'.

i'm with you doc.
something is a little off with this story. still a good thing to be aware of, though.

[Hobie]

I don't believe it. My initial feeling is that he was loading a loaded rifle and the round in the chamber was fired through his own mismanagement. There have now been too many tests with too many mag tubes and setting off ammo for me to believe this.

[Modoc ED]

I gotta go with Hobie and Doc and a couple of you other guys. Up until they said the bullet went all the way through the roof everything was plausible but for the bullet to go through the roof it would have had to go through the ceiling and all. I doubt that a dropped bullet in a magazine tube could muster enough energy to do what was claimed and as Hobie said, there have been too many tests of just such a thing in the past.

[Kid Cossack]

Wait--you mean we can't trust everything we read on the internet?

Shucks, fellows, I'm depressed now!

[bdhold]

I believe if the round simply entered the sheetrock, the story would be told that the round went through the roof.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

No one has mentioned primer sensitivity but I do know Federal pistol primers are more sensitive, easier to ignite than the other makers. I don’t know if they still do but at one time Dillon discouraged using federal primers in their loaders.
Could be a combination of the primers and the tube load gun.

[Hobie]

I can buy a primer in a loaded cartridge being set off, but not the results therefrom as described. Further, after following the link and lacking any other sources, I'm inclined to call it all a bunch of horse hooey.

[lthardman]

I have re-read the original post several times. Joel does not mention that the rifle in question is an 1860 Henry reproduction, but rather a Henry Big Boy. That could make a real difference here. Did I miss something?

I fully understand the posts saying not to load the 1860 Henry in the fully vertical position, but this incident has totally new ramifications if the rifle in question had a loading gate, like the Henry Big Boys.

[Sarge]

My response on TFL-

Add me to the skeptics.

1. Round fired from dropping into tube on another flat-point round? Remote, but plausible.

2. Plausibly-fired round, fired from mag tube large enough to admit entire rimmed cartridge (with room to spare) ejected heavy-for-caliber .44 bullet from said tube with enough velocity to perforate bill of hat? Possible.

3. Same conditions as #2 but with bullet penetrating "all the way through the roof of his home". If the home is a pup tent- sure. Typical frame construction? No. My guess is that even if the bullet missed framing lumber, it still needed 550-600 fps to get through sheetrock, insulation etc. to reach the roof decking and shingles. No way it is getting outta that with whatever velocity it had left.

I have loaded a lot of mouse-phart garden pest/fun loads for various handguns, chronographed them, shot them into lumber to gauge penetration, etc. I've also shot a certain 'relatively-mild handgun load', which you shouldn't fire from a .410 shotgun, from a .410 shotgun; and checked that against lumber. Penetration was disappointing to say the least. That, with a much tighter projectile-to-bore fit and without any energy wasted in "The loading tube was blown off the rifle and the rifle sustained other damage."

I'm not calling anybody a liar here. People do get hit by falling airplane parts, etc so I can't deem this event impossible.

dksac2, you worded this very carefully to mask any cynicism you might harbor. I've read in your other posts that you retired from LE after 15 years and have considerable time on a gunsmith bench. We share similar backgrounds. Feel free to PM me if you want; I may be awhile getting back.

[DPris]

The Henry Big Boy has no loading gate it's tube-loaded, like their rimfires.

While the story may or may not be true, the possibility of a mag detonation occuring eventually, somewhere, sometime, somehow, was discussed with Henry's management when they first designed the Golden Boy that way.

It's very unlikely & the odds are greatly against it, but too few people buying those guns ever understand or stop to think about dropping a round straight down vs sliding it down an angled tube.

Denis

[Griff]

After re-reading the OP, boy do I feel taken in. Doc/Hobie, good call!

[El Chivo]

nice to know you can use it as a mortar in a pinch.

I'm with bulldog that if the round entered the ceiling it would be said that it went through the roof. That wouldn't take much at all.

Mag tubes aren't that thick but neither are shotgun barrels. Also they don't say where the bullet went into the ceiling, it could have been a fragment of something rather than a ballistically-moving bullet.

I do believe the guy could have set off the round that way, I heard of a guy who would drop fresh rounds from his reloading press into a bucket on the floor, and finally one went off. There's no accounting for carelessness.

[lthardman]

The Henry Big Boy has no loading gate it's tube-loaded, like their rimfires.

You are correct, Sir, and I was mistaken. Sorry.

[Molasses]

<deleted earlier text repeating what everyone else said>
Never mind... Day late and a dollar short. Again.

[Joel]

Just to clarify: I did not write this post. I am only providing a link to the original I saw at the other forum. I copy/pasted it so nobody would have to click the link if they did not want to. As the title says, this is unconfirmed.

[cwo4uscgret]

Owning a Marlin 1895CB in .45-70 and especially a Henry Big Boy in .44 Magnum this subject is of special interest to me - especially since I haven't shot either one yet - as a matter of fact, tomorrow is the planned day to shoot both of them.

Although i thought I read it in the Henry Owner's Manual (the on-line .pdf copy does not address it) I read somewhere to not load the magazine tube by dropping rounds straight into the tube, but as others imply - 45 degrees. I will make sure I remember that.

Here's a photo of Federal Premium 300 grain hollow point; I don't see it being "pointy" enough, but I don't know if the tip is smaller then the primer...

[Bridger]

I bet that 3000 grainer will put a stompin on something.

[cwo4uscgret]

I bet that 3000 grainer will put a stompin on something.

typo!

[rusty gunns]

But THAT Touchy??? Um.....

Perhaps he only loaded three into the tube then, instead of nursing the spring down, he just "let it go". The tube on a Henry is long and I'll bet that follower can build up considerable speed (and inertia) traveling the length of the tube.

I know Henrys are prone to slam fires if you load carelessly (as in above).

[kimwcook]

I'll withold judgement on whether or not it happened as reported. I wasn't there, so I don't know. But, I load my 22 tubes with the rifle on an angle. I've never liked dropping those rounds on each other and what the heck it isn't that hard to do for the problems you might curtail.