So, which of y'all are prepared to pose as a Winny expert?

[Retro]

I have this '94 in 44 Mag. Post 64, or course.

Stuck a lead ball up the barrel, about four or five tight spots and about the same not-tight sports. Ball upset in the barrel so measurements are meaningless.

Stuck another ball down the barrel for about half an inch, ball measures 425/433.

This sort of explains, I think, why the thing doesn't shoot well. 3 inches at 25 yards is good.

Best group I got was at around 1200 fps... so I figure if you push a 429 bullet faster, it doesn't get a decent grip, so it never stabilizes.

Am I making sense, or am I out on a limb?

[76/444]

Hey, Retro,...Not an expert on any gun here!

But, I do know a little of what you speak of.

I wouldn't beat up your lever to quick for an over sized bore. There are some oversized (.433) hard cast boolits available from......


http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm



....that should solve your problem. They also have a lapping kit and bullets if you want to go that route for your bore irregularities.


Best of luck to you!

[Tycer]

Hey, Retro,...Not an expert on any gun here!

But, I do know a little of what you speak of.

I wouldn't beat up your lever to quick for an over sized bore. There are some oversized (.433) hard cast boolits available from......


http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm



....that should solve your problem. They also have a lapping kit and bullets if you want to go that route for your bore irregularities.


Best of luck to you!

Yep yep.

[Sixgun]

I'm different--When something is out of tolerence with a gun, I get rid of it. I just can never seem to happy with junk, you know, kinda like having a car that been wrecked good before.

With a bore that sloppy, the only thing that will straighten it out is a rebarrel and with the way Winchester's tolerences have been for the last 15 years, you might be out of luck in finding a decent barrel.

Yea, I know, I'm a pessimist. --------------Sixgun

[Griff]

I had one of those, produced in 1969, stolen after my last tour in VN, 1974. I take your's wasn't acquired new. Since, you don't know how it was treated prior to you acquiring it... I wouldn't be so quick to denigrate the entire breed. Although I thought mine kicked like a Missouri mule! Far worse than my .30-30s.

For secondary accuracy testing, I'd remove all that clutter from under the barrel and shoot it for groups as a single shot. Sometimes those barrel bands will alter the flight of a bullet down the barrel. There's a trick to gettin' them to shoot well. And, who knows, some jasper may have shot cowboy with the dern thing, and fetched up a coupla bullets against each other. Those can wreck havoc inside a tube. Barrels can sometimes be found on various auctions sites, and thru Numrich Arms (www.e-gunparts.com).

Keep us posted on yer progress.

[76/444]

I'm different--When something is out of tolerence with a gun, I get rid of it. I just can never seem to happy with junk, you know, kinda like having a car that been wrecked good before.

With a bore that sloppy, the only thing that will straighten it out is a rebarrel and with the way Winchester's tolerences have been for the last 15 years, you might be out of luck in finding a decent barrel.

Yea, I know, I'm a pessimist. --------------Sixgun

I believe the only thing "out of tolerance" was the ammo.

[2ndovc]

I'm different--When something is out of tolerence with a gun, I get rid of it. I just can never seem to happy with junk, you know, kinda like having a car that been wrecked good before.

With a bore that sloppy, the only thing that will straighten it out is a rebarrel and with the way Winchester's tolerences have been for the last 15 years, you might be out of luck in finding a decent barrel.

Yea, I know, I'm a pessimist. --------------Sixgun

I believe the only thing "out of tolerance" was the ammo.

What part of .433 is within specs for a .44 barrel?
There should be no need to go to a custom bullet maker to get even decent accuracy from a '94!


jb

[76/444]

I'm different--When something is out of tolerence with a gun, I get rid of it. I just can never seem to happy with junk, you know, kinda like having a car that been wrecked good before.

With a bore that sloppy, the only thing that will straighten it out is a rebarrel and with the way Winchester's tolerences have been for the last 15 years, you might be out of luck in finding a decent barrel.

Yea, I know, I'm a pessimist. --------------Sixgun

I believe the only thing "out of tolerance" was the ammo.

What part of .433 is within specs for a .44 barrel?
There should be no need to go to a custom bullet maker to get even decent accuracy from a '94!


jb

What part is in spec?,... the whole dam thing!

That is what Winny and Marlin decided to use as spec for a number of years and who the hell is anyone else to tell them that their specs , on their weapons is wrong?

Beartooth Boolits aren't custom made,... they are off the shelf ready for purchase!

What diff does it make?
REM 44mag bullets come in .429.
Hornady loads .430 BULLETS.
Beartooth sells both of those plus .431, .4315 and .432.

What? Are you saying All but .429 are out of spec?

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

[Retro]

I'm different--When something is out of tolerence with a gun, I get rid of it. I just can never seem to happy with junk, you know, kinda like having a car that been wrecked good before.

In an ideal world

Around here, it takes two years to get a licence and only then are you allowed to take the gun home to check how it shoots. And it's the barrel that's licenced, so a rebarrel is also a heap of paperwork.

That is what Winny and Marlin decided to use as spec for a number of years and who the hell is anyone else to tell them that their specs , on their weapons is wrong?

Hmmm, OK. So it's intentional? Figures, 'cos the barrel looks good otherwise. No rings that I can see, clean rifling, etc.

A buddy casts bullets, will see what size those drop from the mould, maybe shoot them without resizing, see what that does.

Thanks all

Edit: So, having bought a whole box of round balls, I proceeded to the Ruger Blackhawk. Nice consistent .432 throats, 430/417 lands/grooves. So .431 bullets should work better than .429, I'm thinking.

[Don McDowell]

I don't know if Remington still offers their lead gaschecked bullet for the 44 as a component but they were sized .433

Not sure what brand of rifle you have there, but here in the US we have Winchester and Marlin. Winny is what a horse does or the name of an old spinster aunt.

[Retro]

Oh, I have a Winny and a Marly, an a Savvy too.

*grin* *duck* *runveryfast*

[Tycer]

A buddy casts bullets, will see what size those drop from the mould, maybe shoot them without resizing, see what that does.

If his molds drop less than .433, he can "beagle" his mold by attaching thin strips of foil tape to the face of the mold to increase diameter. Works a treat.

[76/444]

I'm different--When something is out of tolerence with a gun, I get rid of it. I just can never seem to happy with junk, you know, kinda like having a car that been wrecked good before.

In an ideal world

Around here, it takes two years to get a licence and only then are you allowed to take the gun home to check how it shoots. And it's the barrel that's licenced, so a rebarrel is also a heap of paperwork.

That is what Winny and Marlin decided to use as spec for a number of years and who the hell is anyone else to tell them that their specs , on their weapons is wrong?

Hmmm, OK. So it's intentional? Figures, 'cos the barrel looks good otherwise. No rings that I can see, clean rifling, etc.

A buddy casts bullets, will see what size those drop from the mould, maybe shoot them without resizing, see what that does.

Thanks all

Edit: So, having bought a whole box of round balls, I proceeded to the Ruger Blackhawk. Nice consistent .432 throats, 430/417 lands/grooves. So .431 bullets should work better than .429, I'm thinking.

OF course it was INTENTIONAL !!!!!!

I don't get into SIZING handguns, so I won't comment.

But, I do know this,.... for long arms, pushing cast lead at .002 over bore size is recommended !

[Don McDowell]

You might want to go into that barrel and do some lead mining before you try shooting any more. Take a good heavy flannel patch soaked in pure gum spirits of turepentine on a jag , make a couple of passes and then hit it with a dry patch on a jag. Repeat as necessary.

[KirkD]

Make sure the tight spots you felt when shoving that lead ball down the bore, weren't patches of leading. Like Don says, make sure your barrel is clean, then lube it before slugging it with a lead ball. If the barrel has serious lead patches in it, you may have to use extra fine steel wool ... works real well. Secondly, .429 is undersize for a lead bullet in a 44 Mag. Just checked my RCBS drawing for the 44 Mag. It puts groove diameter at .429 to .433. Also, I'm a little skeptical about a slug that only goes 1/2" into the barrel unless you can drive it out from the other side. If your bore is oval, has someone pounded the stuffin out of the muzzle end of the barrel, in an attempt to adjust the front sight?

[Modoc ED]

Instead of using a round, lead, ball go to a sporting goods store and get a package of lead "line sinkers". Those are the sinkers that are oval shaped with a hole through the middle of them. When you push them through the barrel they are stable and can not upset. Further, I find it useful to use a wooden dowel that is very near the size of the barrrel -- gives a nice consistent push and tends not to wobble and upset the lead weight.

For what it's worth, I like a jacketed bullet to be .430 and a cast, lead, bullet to be .432/.433.

[Retro]

ModocED, KirkD, that sounds sane, except that the largest sizer I can see on the web is .431 (OK, I havn't looked much).

I did scrub the lead out of the barrel, OK, I didn't flood it with lube. Yea, I use a wooden dowel.

Thanks for the headsup, but barrel is not oval.

Will try bigger bullets -- I have Speer jacketed at 429 and Sierra (which work a little better) at 4295, but the locally cast lead bullets are all sized 429, which, based on what I'm learning from you fellows, can't be right.

Thanks all!

[Modoc ED]

ModocED, KirkD, that sounds sane, except that the largest sizer I can see on the web is .431 (OK, I havn't looked much).

I did scrub the lead out of the barrel, OK, I didn't flood it with lube. Yea, I use a wooden dowel. Yes, but is that dowel very nearly the same diameter as the barrel thereby preventing flexing thereby preventing shifting of whatever lead projectile you're using.

Thanks for the headsup, but barrel is not oval. I know the barrel isn't oval fer dern sake!!! The purpose of using an oval weight is that it starts easier into the barrel and is elongated thereby making it impossible to shift postition in the barrel as you push it through.

Will try bigger bullets -- I have Speer jacketed at 429 and Sierra (which work a little better) at 4295, but the locally cast lead bullets are all sized 429, which, based on what I'm learning from you fellows, can't be right.

Thanks all!

[Sixgun]

[quote="76/444]

I believe the only thing "out of tolerance" was the ammo. What? Are you saying All but .429 are out of spec?
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?[/quote]

What part of .433 is within specs for a .44 barrel?
There should be no need to go to a custom bullet maker to get even decent accuracy from a '94!
jb[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Thanks Jason,
.433 is totally unacceptable. Along with the stupid 1-38 twist, these are the reasons why modern 44 mags. shoot like a shotgun. I have many models of antique Winchesters and Marlins in 44-40 and they all range from .428-.429. (yea, i know, they are 44-40, not 44 mag. 38-40's I have all hang at ..400-,.401--In fact, just to cut through all the BS, In owning literally hundreds of antique cartridge guns over the last 35+ years, with the exception of the 38-55, all slug out at their "given specs".

A "given spec" for the 44 Mag is .429-.430 but every modern 44 mag RIFLE I have ever slugged ran .431-.433. Why? Because the factorys want to keep the pressures down. Thats why the half dozen Marlin .44 mags/44-40's I have owned got sold.

Go slug a S&W Model 29--dozens I have examined slug at ..430. Colt Anacondas slug at .429--Colt Pythons slug at .357 while Smith 27's go .358. Colts have an accuracy edge on Smiths and thats been my experience. Rugers usually go .430-.432 and some can be downright sloppy.

This is just to make a point--If factories make their handgun barrels tight, but are sloppy with their rifle barrels, well, then .433 in that Marlin is "out of spec". I call it "willfull distortion of a known spec to keep the lawyers happy" kind of "thang" It seems that Marlin/Winchester only do this with their 44's. I have and have had 45-70's, 32-20's, 25-20's etc that slug out fine.

[Marc]

Sixgun, I have the exception to your rule. My 1873 in 44WCF, 1916 vintage if we believe Madis, slugs at .430" and is quite happy with a .431" bullet.

[2ndovc]

[quote="76/444]

I believe the only thing "out of tolerance" was the ammo. What? Are you saying All but .429 are out of spec?
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

What part of .433 is within specs for a .44 barrel?
There should be no need to go to a custom bullet maker to get even decent accuracy from a '94!
jb[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Thanks Jason,
.433 is totally unacceptable. Along with the stupid 1-38 twist, these are the reasons why modern 44 mags. shoot like a shotgun. I have many models of antique Winchesters and Marlins in 44-40 and they all range from .428-.429. (yea, i know, they are 44-40, not 44 mag. 38-40's I have all hang at ..400-,.401--In fact, just to cut through all the BS, In owning literally hundreds of antique cartridge guns over the last 35+ years, with the exception of the 38-55, all slug out at their "given specs".

A "given spec" for the 44 Mag is .429-.430 but every modern 44 mag RIFLE I have ever slugged ran .431-.433. Why? Because the factorys want to keep the pressures down. Thats why the half dozen Marlin .44 mags/44-40's I have owned got sold.

Go slug a S&W Model 29--dozens I have examined slug at ..430. Colt Anacondas slug at .429--Colt Pythons slug at .357 while Smith 27's go .358. Colts have an accuracy edge on Smiths and thats been my experience. Rugers usually go .430-.432 and some can be downright sloppy.

This is just to make a point--If factories make their handgun barrels tight, but are sloppy with their rifle barrels, well, then .433 in that Marlin is "out of spec". I call it "willfull distortion of a known spec to keep the lawyers happy" kind of "thang" It seems that Marlin/Winchester only do this with their 44's. I have and have had 45-70's, 32-20's, 25-20's etc that slug out fine.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

Thank you Jack! That's my point exactly. .433 in a bore that's "supposed" to be .429-431 at most is unacceptable.

Also just for the argument. Beartooth bullets would absolutely be custom ammo for, especially, someone that does not hand load.
Other than on a few sites on the net who the heck has ever heard of Beartooth bullets?!

Handloaded ammunition is by definition custom ammo! Do you not taylor you loads to a particular firearm?

The buyer of an unalterd factory firearm should have some confidence that said rifle should perform reasonably well with the same ammunition that is
sitting on the shelves of the store where he or she bought it!!!


jason

[AJMD429]

.433 is totally unacceptable. Along with the stupid 1-38 twist, these are the reasons why modern 44 mags. shoot like a shotgun.

Not all of them - my Ruger 96/44 and 77/44 both have 1:20" twist, and both slug out at 0.430" -

[Sixgun]

Not all of them - my Ruger 96/44 and 77/44 both have 1:20" twist, and both slug out at 0.430" -

Doc, Sometimes I tend to run my mouth before I put my little brain in gear . I should have said most newer Marlins and Winchesters.

In addition to your Ruger, I once had a Remington 788 in 44 Mag that was a tackdriver, but.....only with the short 200 grain bullets. I also hear some of the 1960's-1970's 336 and 1894 Marlins in 44 mag were also very accurate but I have no experience with them. ------------Sixgun

Yea Jason, its part of the reason why some of us levergun fanatics seem to stay with the pre-war guns---they shoot!...........and don't jam

Oh come on---its just a joke

[Retro]

Thanks for the headsup, but barrel is not oval. I know the barrel isn't oval fer dern sake!!! The purpose of using an oval weight is that it starts easier into the barrel and is elongated thereby making it impossible to shift postition in the barrel as you push it through.

Hey Modoc ED, I was referring to where KirkD said

If your bore is oval, has someone pounded the stuffin out of the muzzle end of the barrel, in an attempt to adjust the front sight?

I get the idea behind the fishing weight, not much of a fisherman, but I'll figure out where the relevant stores are and go pay them a visit.

But it seems the consensus is that .433 for a Winchester barrel is not unusual.

Around here we can't afford factory ammo anyway, so handloading is a way of life. Problem is, the cheapest bullets on the shelf move, and that kills the competition, leaving us with only cheap bullets. Fortunately I have a perfectionist friend who casts, and I have no problem paying extra for that.

[Retro]

OK, so here's an update for y'all.

Recap: This is one of the better "groups" I got from my Winchester '94, at 25m off a bench. This is a GC reload I got with the rifle. Factory ammo and about 25 different handloads I tried were all similar or worse. Plain base, GC, or jacketed. Fast (pistol) powder or slower.



(5 shots -- it's tumbling)

I know a fellow with a CNC machine, he made me some brass bullets a tad under .433 in diameter. Loaded these up (the bullets are so big they don't go into the top part of my seater die, so I had to load them short, with just the tip of the bullet showing. (basically as in the pic). They're light, of course, 180 grains or thereabouts. Loaded 22 grains of the local powder which is supposed to be close to 2400.

Got this at 25m off the bench.



This proves my theory. So I went ahead and joined SciFiJim's group buy for a .434 cast boolit.

Conclusion: a 44 magnum is not a .44. But it's also sometimes not a .429 either...

[J Miller]

If you'll do some research you'll find the "typical" .44 Magnum bullet is a 240gr jacketed projectile measuring .429". "Usually" jacketed bullets will provide decent accuracy in over sized barrels since they are hard enough to grab the rifling and stabilize.
The factory .44 Magnum lead bullets are soft swauged lead. These bullets will expand into the over sized barrels and will "usually" provide decent accuracy for a few shots before they start leading. They are normally sized to .430".

What I've come to believe is that the gun factories do not take handgun caliber lever guns seriously. They consider them more as CAS toys then genuine hunting type rifles. So they go cheep.
I don't buy the larger bore equals lower pressure because of the lawyers idea, I think they just buy their barrels from the lowest bidder and don't pay any attention to proper tolerances until a customer sends the gun back for a proper barrel.
I have read reports by several folks that have sent their guns back to Marlin and had them rebarreled with proper spec barrels. So Marlin does have proper spec barrels on hand and I don't doubt the other gun makers do too.

There is no doubt that a .433" grove diameter is out of spec, it's just not out enough for the gun makers to care about it.

JMHO

Joe

[Old Savage]

My Winchesters go from 73 to 05 and they all shoot something great. I have one 30-06 that seems to shoot everything great.

[Malamute]

OK, so here's an update for y'all.

Recap: This is one of the better "groups" I got from my Winchester '94, at 25m off a bench. This is a GC reload I got with the rifle. Factory ammo and about 25 different handloads I tried were all similar or worse. Plain base, GC, or jacketed. Fast (pistol) powder or slower.



(5 shots -- it's tumbling)

I know a fellow with a CNC machine, he made me some brass bullets a tad under .433 in diameter. Loaded these up (the bullets are so big they don't go into the top part of my seater die, so I had to load them short, with just the tip of the bullet showing. (basically as in the pic). They're light, of course, 180 grains or thereabouts. Loaded 22 grains of the local powder which is supposed to be close to 2400.

Got this at 25m off the bench.



This proves my theory. So I went ahead and joined [url=http://castboolits.gunloads.com
/showthread.php?t=64662]SciFiJim's group buy[/url] for a .434 cast boolit.

Conclusion: a 44 magnum is not a .44. But it's also sometimes not a .429 either...

You know what,... you are a real jerk! No one said Marlin bores are at .433 diameter! What was suggested was to use .433 or .432 over sized lead bullets in a Marlin 44 lever action Micro groove barrel!!

So, what do you do? Like a pure idiot? You have pure brass bullets turned at .433 and wonder why it won't seat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What,.... are you reading comprehension challenged, or something?

Then,...you have the audacity to blame the tool instead of the operator!!!

No one designed the bore diameter to fill the need of some legal team. That is your own delusion.

The bore diameter was designed and set by Marlin gunsmiths at that time and period. For what they decided was best for the MICRO GROOVE bore.

NOT to satisfy your bitchy a*s decades later!!

I don't know if this sort of behaviour bothers anyone else, but it does me. I generally prefer stay out of these sorts of things, but feel compelled to respond in this case.

I would make several observations. Besides the rant, name calling, and overall unsocial behaviour, our friend has gotten the object of his derision wrong. Retro did not say several of the things he was accused of. If anyone is guilty of reading comprehension issues, it is not Retro.

I've tried to be as polite as possible in saying it, but 76/444 sir, your outburst, accusations, and behaviour are completely out of line. An apology is in order.

[Tycer]

I've tried to be as polite as possible in saying it, but 76/444 sir, your outburst, accusations, and behaviour are completely out of line. An apology is in order.

Uh, yep.

76/444, I think you have misinterpreted Retro. If I'm wrong and you interpreted him correctly, you still owe him an apology. That was uncalled for.

BTW, Retros gun is not a Marlin.

[C. Cash]

You might shoot about 4-5 boxes of the cheapest factory/reloaded 44 Mag. Jacketed ammo, and just have fun with that rifle. See if you can wear down the high spots the old fashioned way! Maybe clean it every so often...run some solvent and patches through it. I don't know if it would really work, but might be worth a try and you can have some fun doing it. It's either that or lapping to remove the tight spots. If you get to good accuracy, then look for a good cast bullet of the proper size.

[2ndovc]

I've tried to be as polite as possible in saying it, but 76/444 sir, your outburst, accusations, and behaviour are completely out of line. An apology is in order.

Uh, yep.

76/444, I think you have misinterpreted Retro. If I'm wrong and you interpreted him correctly, you still owe him an apology. That was uncalled for.

BTW, Retros gun is not a Marlin.

Tycer,


This is the same "dude" that admonished me for actually suggesting that .433 was "out of spec". In the same post no less!!!!
He failed to notice that this is and older post that "The Professor" found and responded to.

76/444 , Right out of the box you were rude and off the mark. Once again!
Any more "Pearls of Wisdom" from your "vast experience"?
Maybe a course on reading comprehension may be in order.

Lets go Dude!!

jason

[76/444]

Well,... gentlemen,... this is the way I see this one.

First off,... my first post was not a negative post.

Now,... all I see is a person come on to the world wide net whining like a stuck pig under a gate, proclaiming he knows more than Marlin or Winchester manufacturing spec procedures.

Makes no diff if he has a Marlin or a Winchester , because BOTH did the same over sized bore in 1/38 twist 44 lever guns in the past, in relationship to what he is whining about.

So, it was suggested that the common practice to such barrel specs is an over sized lead bullet. That .433 is pretty much standard,...but, he confused that info into something about the bore being .433 and continues to this point bitch'n about the same misunderstanding above. That he should slug his barrel and go 2,000ths over. Then he was advised to clean out the obstructions he brought up later,... before going any further.


What does he do?


He has solid brass bullets turned at .433, and starts shooting them in a barrel he has not posted that he figured out about the obstructions. He does not report that it was lead or whatever,... or that he even tried to clean it out. Nor does he mention that he slugged the barrel to know what would be a safe over sized bullet to shoot. Then he mentions how the brass bullets wouldn't even seat properly ,... but he went ahead and shoved them into the chamber of an obstructed barrel of unknown bore diameter.

Now that is the way I see this one.

If I am wrong,... all that someone has to do is copy and paste sections of his posts to prove me wrong,.... about cleaning the bore,.... slugging the bore,.... before shooting over sized sold brass bullets and I will gladly give an apology.

I think he is lucky he is not posting about blowing something up! I think we are lucky he isn't whining about the advice he got but didn't listen to and had some innocent person get hurt!

Personally, in this crazy litigious world, it wouldn't surprise me to be added to a co-defendant list if everything didn't go well for this guy.

And,... this will be the last post of this nature that I will ever reply to. There are much more experienced gentlemen here I will leave these to without being upset that someone who claims to know so much,... does the things I just listed!

[Malamute]

Well,... gentlemen,... this is the way I see this one.

First off,... my first post was not a negative post.

Agreed on that point.

Now,... all I see is a person come on to the world wide net whining like a stuck pig under a gate, proclaiming he knows more than Marlin or Winchester manufacturing spec procedures.

I havent seen any whining on Retros part, it looks like he was asking for information and advice.

Makes no diff if he has a Marlin or a Winchester , because BOTH did the same over sized bore in 1/38 twist 44 lever guns in the past, in relationship to what he is whining about.

Same answer as above. Not sure why you bring up Marlin in regards to Retro. Your earlier post seemed to take any reference to Marlin as a personal affront, which was somewhat humorous in that Retro was asking about a Winchester, not a Marlin.

So, it was suggested that the common practice to such barrel specs is an over sized lead bullet. That .433 is pretty much standard,...but, he confused that info into something about the bore being .433 and continues to this point bitch'n about the same misunderstanding above. That he should slug his barrel and go 2,000ths over. Then he was advised to clean out the obstructions he brought up later,... before going any further.

I read that Retro has cleaned his bore, and determined there is not a lead problem. I see no confusion on his part, he slugged the bore twice, first time he did not have confidence in the numbers because of tight spots in the bore (which is not uncommon). He slugged it again, and determined that the groove diametr is .433". I don't see where he has misunderstood any of this so far.


What does he do?


He has solid brass bullets turned at .433, and starts shooting them in a barrel he has not posted that he figured out about the obstructions. He does not report that it was lead or whatever,... or that he even tried to clean it out. Nor does he mention that he slugged the barrel to know what would be a safe over sized bullet to shoot. Then he mentions how the brass bullets wouldn't even seat properly ,... but he went ahead and shoved them into the chamber of an obstructed barrel of unknown bore diameter.

Uh, no, he said they were slightly under .433". He did say that he cleaned it and determined there was not a lead problem. Yes, he did say he slugged the barrel. The seating problem was the seating die, not the barrel. He mentions that he seated them as they look in the picture. I see no problem with that. The front band was seated in the case. That isnt a problem in and of itself. I havent seen the part where he "shoved them into the chamber of an obstructed barrel of unknown bore diameter". I think his making up some (slightly undersize) brass bullets was a good idea, and showed the barrel needs a larger bullet to perform well accuracy wise.

Now that is the way I see this one.

If I am wrong,... all that someone has to do is copy and paste sections of his posts to prove me wrong,.... about cleaning the bore,.... slugging the bore,.... before shooting over sized sold brass bullets and I will gladly give an apology.

I think he is lucky he is not posting about blowing something up! I think we are lucky he isn't whining about the advice he got but didn't listen to and had some innocent person get hurt!

Personally, in this crazy litigious world, it wouldn't surprise me to be added to a co-defendant list if everything didn't go well for this guy.

And,... this will be the last post of this nature that I will ever reply to. There are much more experienced gentlemen here I will leave these to without being upset that someone who claims to know so much,... does the things I just listed!

In all his post on this matter, Retro has been quite polite, and looks like he is genuinely seeking advice and information, nor did he come across as trying to be a know-it-all. He in no way deserved to be insulted, critisized, called names, and generally treated poorly. I stand by my earlier statement. You were out of line. This is not the first time you have acted in a similar way, and it reflects very poorly on the chacter of the entire group. There is no excuse for such behaviour on Leverguns.

[Retro]

Oooh! I go off to bed, come back the next day, and there's all kind of stuff going down

Malamute, no worries. I've been on the 'net since pretty much before www took off, when archie was your friend, and I'm not particularly bothered. I actually thought he was posting to the wrong thread, mentioning a Marlin 44 with microgroove barrel.

76/444, as Malamute says -- this is an experiment. I have determined that my particular Winchester '94 does not like lead bullets sized at .430, with or without gas checks. I've determined that it also doesn'l like jacketed bullets, .429 or .4295. I should actually post a picture of all the different bullets I tried... but anyway.

I don't know why some people think that I should reassure them that I'm not doing stupid things.

He does not report that it was lead or whatever,... or that he even tried to clean it out. Nor does he mention that he slugged the barrel to know what would be a safe over sized bullet to shoot.

I unloaded the rifle when I checked the target. I didn't put my hand in front of the muzzle when I pulled the trigger. I used eye and ear protection... never mind And BTW I did slug the barrel, this is where this whole thing started.

I know the bullet is not seating "properly" (and, if it were a lead wadcutter I'd seat it to the same depth, so it's not "wrong", it's just that my reloading tools don't allow me to do anything else) but again, with a reduced charge it's fine. I expected the primers to be at least a little flattened but they're not, at all. Look up "deep seating". It's not against the law or anything.

I guess if I were to write this all up as a web page, I'd be able to explain things more coherently, but that's not the point.

Point is, my Winchester model '94 * does not shoot worth anything with standard bullets, but shoots quite nicely with oversize monolithics.

Point is, I can now go ahead and drop money on an oversize mould, and a specially made lube sizing die, and know that I'm on the right track.

And it seems that this is not unusual, that there are other people out there with similar oversize barrels -- this is something I did not know three months ago.

And yea, I thought y'all might like to know that

* I do have a Marlin '94, in 38-40, but I still have to get the paperwork sorted out to apply for a licence so look for a posting in, ah, 2012 or thereabouts.

[Marc]

I had to open up my 44-40 seater die so I could seat .431" bullets. I just used wet or dry sandpaper wrapped around a dowel. I turned the die by hand on the dowel and sandpaper. Didn't take much.

[76/444]

deleted

[76/444]

ModocED, KirkD, that sounds sane, except that the largest sizer I can see on the web is .431 (OK, I havn't looked much).

I did scrub the lead out of the barrel, OK, I didn't flood it with lube. Yea, I use a wooden dowel.

Thanks for the headsup, but barrel is not oval.

Will try bigger bullets -- I have Speer jacketed at 429 and Sierra (which work a little better) at 4295, but the locally cast lead bullets are all sized 429, which, based on what I'm learning from you fellows, can't be right.

Thanks all!

My apologies Retro,... I completely missed this, so, I probably missed others.

Please accept my apology for my wrong, rude and uncalled for response?

[Retro]

No worries 76/444, we all have bad days. And yea Marc, the tools are just tools, and modifying a tool to work is part of the fun. I am looking for a spare seater (non-carbide sets are cheap) to ream out a bit.

R

[Borregos]

Sounds like you guys have to really jump through hoops to get a firearm licence
How do you register a barrel, do they put a serial number on it?

[Retro]

This is kinda off topic, but yea.

Our barrels were traditionally licenced, by serial number. Not that the barrel always carries a serial number, but if it's part of a gun, that serial number applies.

If you buy just a barrel to build a gun, that's the licenced part -- until recently, actions were not licenced (unlike you guys, where it's the other way around).

Now, they want to licence everything. Guy just got himself into trouble for having rifle stocks and telescopic sights (but that won't stick in court... I hope).

We have a little card for each firearm, with the relevant serial numbers. Limit of four firearms per person, unless you're a dedicated hunter / sport shooter / collector. To become dedicated you need to be a member of a relevant club, pass a test, and participate in a certain number of events a year, or lose your dedicated status and then of course your firearms.

BUT! We still have more "freedom" than the UK.

I've said it before, you guys don't appreciate your constitution enough