please school me about this winchester

[sinsir]

this is my first post here, and i hope that someone can help.



Winchester's Repeating Arms,Hew Haven CT Patenend March 29,1865-October 26,1850 -40-60 Model 1876-53808 with an octagon barrel.

assume I know nothing .... well because I don't. i love my firearms, and do own a modern winchester 30/30, but lever guns realy are not my thing.

so here it is - a buddy of mine, e-mailed me the pic ( have not phyicaly seen it ) and the above info
when he was asking me about it, i honestly didn't even know what the caliber was, i kept trying to correct him .. ie.. "you mean a .45/70"

he inherited this rifle from his dad, who inherited it from his, and he wants to have his son shoot it before it gets retired to the safe ... now the next question, where to buy and what ammo ? black powder or smokeless ? the box of ammo in the photo is spent cases, 4 rounds of live ammo is all he has, which his dad had found years ago.

thanks for your help

[Kansas Ed]

That appears to be a pretty nice 1876. Hard to tell from the picture, but the barrel length looks a little short. It should be 28" to the front of the bolt. There has been a resurgence in the 1876 model recreations in the last couple of years, which should provide you with a couple of companies which custom load ammo for them. Yes, it is a 40-60...and that cartridge was long ago forgotten until the last two years or so. It is starting to make a comeback. If you aren't familiar with lever guns...especially antique leverguns...someone should walk you through the signs of pressure, headspace, and barrel slugging before you take that out for a shooting session. If it hasn't been refinished or messed with...and the condition looks excellent...that rifle could be worth $5000 or more. And I'm usually pretty conservative. Hard to tell though from the dark picture. Ammo can be found loaded at Ten-X or Buffalo Arms. Be sure the rifle is cleaned thoroughly afterwards if they are loaded with BP. It really needs to be hunted though...they aren't happy being safe queens. BTW, the serial number will tell you the date, as Winchester kept good records of production years and models. You can give it here and someone will look it up for you...just replace the last two digits with X's for security purposes.

One other thing...DO NOT...I REPEAT...DO NOT get aftermarket bluing anywhere near that rifle...it may touch up a white spot or two but will decrease the value substantially.

Ed

[AJMD429]

I only know what little I know about 'modern' leverguns, but it looks like a fascinating gun, and a fascinating part of the family legacy. I'd certainly keep it, and never sell it, regardless of 'book value'.

If it is in good shape it could well be a 'shooter' - and there's no reason a family heirloom need be a 'safe queen' that is always locked up and never honored by shooting (I'll bet great-grandpa-whoozits didn't just keep it in a safe looking pretty - he probably shot it ALOT, and could have depended on it for food or protection or even just for target shooting. Just don't go shooting it in the rain, failing to clean it, etc.

Some of the fellers who are more into the older guns will chime in shortly and load you up with lots of info, no doubt.

Meanwhile, welcome to the best forum on the 'net - and by the way - after you fiddle with leverguns a bit, you'll not be as excited about bolt-actions and semi-automatics anymore. Leverguns allow the deliberation of the bolt-action with (from a practical standpoint,) nearly the firepower of a semiauto.

[sinsir]

i looked over at bufflo arms, and they had 3 types of ammo to feed it, 1 black powder, and 2 smokeless - 1 of which said "not intended for antique firearms", so is this a BP load, or a smokeless ? dumb queston i know. i'll see if i can get the serial # from him

as i stated, it's a buddy's who came to me asking for a little help. he had only shot it once with his dad, when he was a child ( now in his 40's and not a big gun guy)

me ? well, i love my firearms, old/new/rifles/pistols/carbines/shotguns .... heck if it goes bang, i'm all over it but honestly, semi's are my thing.

thanks

[KirkD]

Like Kansas Ed said, that there looks like a nice example of an original Winchester Model 1876. According to a copy of Winchester's 1895 catalogue, the 40-60 Winchester fired a 1:20 lead 210 grain bullet out the barrel at 1,475 fps using 62 grains of black powder. Another list I have from the early 1900's had the Winchester 40-60 fire a 210 grain bullet at 1,533 fps. You can get new brass here http://www.marstar.ca/ammo-etc/new-brass.shtm . It is a Canadian site, but they ship all over the world. I have an original '76 but it is in 45-60 caliber and I really enjoy shooting it. Don't let that fellow mess with it (no refinishing the wood, or blueing stuff); that will destroy a lot of the collectors value.

[Ysabel Kid]

welcome to the fire!

[Griff]

Welcome to the Forum.

Direct answer: YES, it's a BP deal. But don't go all "girly-girl" over that. BP is actually EASIER to clean than smokeless. You need all of about 1 cleaning agent... ready... HOT WATER. BP residue disolves in WATER, hot H2O disolves it faster! Hot H2O also dries faster, reducing the potential for corrosion. Then, swipe yer bore with a little preservative... just about any water repelling preservative will do that. I just swab mine down with WD-40 after cleaning. If going away for long term storage, then a heavier grease would be better... just remember that any grease or oil needs to be removed from the bore before shooting after storage. LOts of guys will tell you that you need "Murphy's Oil", "Moose Milk" or other concoctions, but they're not really needed. Many a BP firearm has lived to this day with nothing but water as a cleaning agent. As my BP mentor said, "if it worked for the Mountain Man, it'll work for you." I figure I'm a step up, as I have WD-40! They just had animal fat!

Metals of the era were not proofed for the type of quick pressure surges that smokeless can produce. So, while there are powders that can be held to pressures appropriate for that arm, most would not recommend a steady diet of same.

[Hobie]

i looked over at bufflo arms, and they had 3 types of ammo to feed it, 1 black powder, and 2 smokeless - 1 of which said "not intended for antique firearms", so is this a BP load, or a smokeless ? dumb queston i know. i'll see if i can get the serial # from him

as i stated, it's a buddy's who came to me asking for a little help. he had only shot it once with his dad, when he was a child ( now in his 40's and not a big gun guy)

me ? well, i love my firearms, old/new/rifles/pistols/carbines/shotguns .... heck if it goes bang, i'm all over it but honestly, semi's are my thing.

thanks

It bears repeating that your friend should absolutely resist every urge to fix it up with bluing, refinishing the stock, etc. I personally recommend ONLY blackpowder loads be used. I also recommend that your friend record the details of the provenance (the history) of this gun as he knows it and get it lettered (a factory record review) from the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, WY. This gun isn't just a sentimental treasure, it is a real treasure!

Our member Buck Stinson (aka Rick Bachman of Old West Reproductions) is another experienced owner of original 1876 Winchesters and has a "register" of existing 1876s to document the various features of the model. I'm sure he'd like to hear about your friend's rifle.

[bdhold]

congratulations on owning a beautiful Centennial rifle.
thanks for posting the photo

[Buck Elliott]

John Hawk, the research asst at the Cody Firearms Museum is a real '76 guru and collector. I'm sure a letter is available for that rifle.

[sinsir]

thanks for all your help. i have sent my buddy a link to this site/thread so he can read it for himself.

no worries about me going all "girly-girl" about BP. i understand the chemisrty, although i do like to use murphy's oil soap for BP and corrosive primed ammo. as far as a post clean oil and lube, my standby is hoppe's #9 and kroil @ a 50/50 mix