Leaving the Forum for a while because of censorship..UPDATED

mod71alaska · Post by **mod71alaska** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:55 pm

I stepped back for a few days to consider my response to the deletion of a recent post of mine and subsequent locked thread in which I expressed my opinion that I didn't like it. In this time I have given considerable thought to the PMs and emails I have received, all of which I greatly appreciated. It has become clear to me that I need to leave the Forum for a while.

I was miffed when my original post to YK's thread http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=25069 was deleted for the use of a double entendre with cat house and cathouse, and cat, bunny and dog metaphors. My post was not lost in cyber as some suggested might have happened. It was deleted. Since I never thought my post possibly would be deleted by a moderator, I didn't copy it and can't quote it exactly. It was harmless albeit subtly and mildly risque as most adult double entendres and mixed metaphors are.

Then my thread "Yet another post deleted without a word..." was locked by a Forum moderator. That shocked and angered me. In that thread I politely but directly expressed my opinion that I didn't like having my post deleted and further that it "seems to me that the LGF is becoming more like a touchy-feely sensitivity group session than a campfire for Levergunners. I'm expressing my opinion here and if my opinion is deleted, I'm gone! I've NEVER abused the privilege of being a member of this Forum." http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=25119 The moderator's explanation and response before locking the thread was that the forum was a "family place" and said I was out in "the machine shed where a bunch of good old boys chaw baccy and spit on the floor while trying to out do the others in "macho" behavior." While I totally respect the moderator as a fellow levergunner and for his commitment to this Forum, I deeply resent that characterization and stand on the integrity of my reputation as a long time contributing member to the Leverguns Forum.

It might be the weather, but actually I don't think so. What I think is the current "possibly offensive" sensitivity standard that is applied for determining censorship on the Leverguns Forum severely limits discussion of adult ideas, stifles adult opinions, and limits clever and appropriate humor. That someone...and specifically someone's child or mother...might be offended????? When our speech is limited by the "possibility of someone being offended" we severely limit the dialog and exchange of content among us. Is bland content all we want? I believe different ideas...even mine here that might be provocative to some...bring about the healthy exchange of opinions, which leads to thinking about different ideas and opinions beyond your own, which leads to finding the best policies, or at least knowing how we each think about things. I think that's really good! To bring this back to leverguns, isn't that what the second amendment is all about...to protect that market place of expression? I will say emphatically that I would not intentionally say something rudely offensive to a fellow Levergunner or their family. Nor to anyone I might encounter. That doesn't mean they might not be offended by something I say! There is a huge difference between those two concepts. I think posts on the Forum should be allowed...even encouraged...to be stimulating, challenging and provocative, which does not include rudeness. What it means is the exchange of ideas, opinions and humor essentially not dummied down to the level of children (who by all rights should be supervised by their parents on the Forum like they should be supervised in all their activities) or limited by the often aging sensitivities of our mothers, who more than likely aren't even Levergunners on the Forum. That's pretty direct (and not at all meant to be insulting) but that's how I feel. My double entendre didn't offend anyone. If it did I think they need to toughen up or join an appropriate, very young children's forum. I also am certain my Christian mother would have chuckled reading my post and come back with a clever response. I have said nothing rudely offensive to anyone of normal sensibilities on this Forum which would warrant having my posts deleted or locked.

You all are my Levergunner friends. Many of you have rifles I've sold you. Many more have become personal and Christian friends as we have journeyed here together. So, it makes me sad that I feel I need to step away from the Forum for a while. I just so strongly object to the deletion of posts and the locking of threads when a Levergunner expresses a provocative idea, thought, or bit of humor.

Victor
aka mod71alaska

PS: I have expressed my views publicly and would ask that you do the same here rather than sending a PM or email. Thank you all.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:02 pm

Well I hate to see ya step away from the fire Victor, but I completely understand. Don't be gone too long.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:06 pm

Nobody likes to be muzzled, but this is a private venue. What goes in "your" house may not go in your neighbor's house. We are all guests here in somebody else's house. There is NO first amendment right to say what you like in a private venue. You can be asked to leave if you offend your host, or asked to shut up.

Yet since it is the other fellow's house and since we are all guests, sometimes we find ourselves suffering the slings and arrows of others ill-conceived or rude words without redress, yet find our own words censored. So it is when you are in someone else's house.

Best wishes.

John in MS · Post by **John in MS** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:10 pm

Victor, you make a good case for your views. How this will turn out... I can't say.

All I CAN say is this: In all our personal correspondence and in your posts that I've seen over the years, I found it very evident that you are a gentleman, and the type person I'd greatly enjoy having as a friend locally, if possible. I hope you won't be away long, and thanks for all your contributions to the forum!

Sincerely,
John

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:12 pm

Victor,

Censorship is wrong, on that we agree. And in this instance I'm in total agreement with you.

PM or email me your email addy so we can stay in contact.

Take care my friend.

Joe

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:19 pm

I've always enjoyed your topics/threads and never found them to be offensive.
Blessings...

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:22 pm

Don't stay gone too long. You are a real Levergunner and everything blows over after while. All folks who spend a lot of time around each other fight a little.

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:23 pm

I agree with Victor. I had a Topic deleted and it just rubbed me as being rude as not to inform me of what was about to happen or that it had happen. It was the Pledge of Allegiance by Red Skelton and I thought it to be a great piece. I later found that it was deleted for being political in the general forum. The fact that it was deleted is not what bothered me so much as the lack of courtesy to let me know or given or asked to re post it elsewhere . I have tried hard not to treat other forum members that way and I wish not to be treated that way. So, I going to follow Victor's lead and also step away for awhile, not leaving but taking a break.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:34 pm

Sorry to hear that guys, but sometimes we all need a break. I did a short time back, just didn't feel like talkin'.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:38 pm

Sure hate to see yea leave the forum Victor.

I have noticed some poster bias at times. (example)
One poster in particular can be extremely rude and crude at times
and it is joked and laughed about.
I honestly believe our moderators are doing a great job overall.
There are a lot of forums out there that are no where close to the quality
and caliber of this forum IMHO.

Blessings, and never forget you have true friends here.

Lobo · Post by **Lobo** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:42 pm

I'm a libertarian, so do not agree with censorship, but I'll give my perspective given 19 years as a classroom teacher in the public school system. If the topic under discussion, or the language being used to discuss the topic are not suitable for impressionable young people, then it's time to end the conversation. We have separated our youth from the adults they are supposed to be learning mature skills from so the adults can engage in inappropriate behaviors. I will not regale the forum with tales of my student who are dead or in prison because they were trying to copy adults. We can be responsible adults or not.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:43 pm

I guess the guys who own the forum and pay the server make the rules.
I'm a moderator on several forums (Clarks, fiberglassflyrodders, WarmFly) and have posted on many others, and the basic statement I opened this with has always seemed very fair - they give us free access - we abide by their rules - they put in extra time effort to keep the place civil.
The forums I've left - I've left without a eulogy.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:45 pm

I totally agree, Sir.......don't stay away too long. I have too many friends here to leave over such a minor, but irritating matter. I just can't imagine a camp fire or gun shop that would be PC, and the Ladies sort of know that when they enter. This forum is not even on the edge of "dirty" or unfit for kids or ladies, at least the kind that would share a campfire or go into a gun shop

soon 2 retire · Post by **soon 2 retire** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:02 pm

Victor,

I'm sorry to see you go and I hope it's not for long. You know what is said about a house divided. I would have replied directly to your original thread instead of emailing you but the thread was locked. You have my email address give a shout anytime. Vaya con dios.

Bob in NE Indiana

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:12 pm

I guess I'm so hard to offend (thick-headed) that I've yet to really be offended here by anyone.

Take a break if you need to, but don't stay away. It's a great forum because of the members here, including even those who may for whatever reason cross some 'line'.

It's also a great forum because of the moderators, who put in lots of work to run it, and are bound to make and enforce rules we may not all agree with from time to time. It's THEIR forum - if the rest of 'us' want to set one up and do things differently, nobody is stopping us. I don't always agree with things, either, but I've got bigger battles to fight in my life - against gun control, against socialism, etc., etc., so I shrug any 'levergun' stuff off (but then I realize my opinion is influenced by the fact that I haven't had any posts deleted yet that I know of...

).

I agree with the concept that it is the HOST'S (or 'moderators' or whatever) site, and they make the rules. If they went the opposite direction and said every post had to have at least one four-letter obscenity, I'd either try to comply (...and I'm sure I could...

) or I'd not post.

Mostly, I guess I miss the big controversies, because if a thread gets too 'hot' for me, or I find it boring, or too crude for my taste, I go to other threads.

I think we'll be better after the 'cabin fever' and 'Obamanitis' start to resolve...

piller · Post by **piller** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:20 pm

AJMD429, I agree with you.

Wes · Post by **Wes** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:21 pm

Guess I didn't catch that one in time to read your deleted post. As the father of three daughters and one son, I will tell all of them to stay out of the cat houses (unless it's the kind shown in the pic)! I think this really isn't that offensive personally, maybe I've got a thicker hide than some.

deerwhacker444 · Post by **deerwhacker444** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:27 pm

Sure,..step away for a while and catch your breath. Spend a some time away for a bit and let everyone cool down. This type of thing shouldn't get anybodies hackles raised. This place is one big family. Family members are gonna fuss and fight, but at the end of the day, the family is all we got. I'm sure that everybody involved means well, but sometimes it doesn't come across that way. I'd much rather spend my time with this "family" than any other one out there.

Come back and see us when you feel it's right, there will still be a spot around the fire.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:40 pm

I think it went overboard in locking down the post when you simply stated your opinion. Your original post was not over the top compared to many, or even most. I am sorry for your decision. You have my number and email. Life is too short for irritation. take your break, then come back to the camp fire. You are in my prayers my friend. blessings

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:50 pm

The "grandchildren" standard is a little too restrictive but common decency isn't. There have been various back and forths about this let's see where this goes. Mod don't stray far, your point has been made.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:04 pm

Odd place where one fellow can openly solicit funds for risque photos and another gets kicked for saying cat-house.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:34 pm

go in peace, man.

come back soon.

wilko · Post by **wilko** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:51 pm

mod71alaska.. dont be gone for long!

Mich Hunter · Post by **Mich Hunter** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:57 pm

I guess the guys who own the forum and pay the server make the rules.
I'm a moderator on several forums (Clarks, fiberglassflyrodders, WarmFly) and have posted on many others, and the basic statement I opened this with has always seemed very fair - they give us free access - we abide by their rules - they put in extra time effort to keep the place civil.
The forums I've left - I've left without a eulogy.

Pretty much. I understand the frustration, but the rules are posted for a reason. Those of you that were on the old board remember that the rules were the same there.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:59 pm

Personally, I like both of our mods here. I think they try to do the best job they can, and for the most part are very fair, except as of late. I hope neither Hobie nor Paul take offense to this. I have a tremendous amount of admiration for both men. I very much respect both of them, but I also respectfully disagree with some of the decisions. I know they've probably been over worked as of late, as there's been a considerable amount of bickering on the forum and that is unfortunate.

When a few people can't obey the rules, and constantly cause trouble, it ruins it for the majority. The mods have to sort through all this mess and I'm sure they get fed up with it after a while and get a little trigger happy with the delete button. I can understand this, and empathize with them. The only thing I ask for is consistency. It is aggravating to see certain posters consistently attack other people personally, resort to name calling, and just be out and out rude, yet not much is done to them. Then posts like Victor's are deleted. Which is worse? FWeidner had a real good point in his post. We can put up pictures of pretty women, some who may even belong in some of those "other houses", but making a pun about feline dwellings is prohibited?

All in all it is the mods' call, and 99% of the time I will back the mods, and we all need to obey the rules that they and Mr. Paco Kelly have set forth. All I ask is that the posts that are deleted are deleted with consistency. One thing we have to remember is that this isn't our place, we are graciously allowed to come here and shoot the bull and talk about the stuff we like. We are all adults and need to act like it, and sort out our problems like adults.

Bigahh · Post by **Bigahh** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:56 am

Victor, Your knowledge will be missed by more than just myself I am sure.It Maybe a good thing to step away, but I hope you come back. There already has been some "Good" guys not come back, and I would hate to see it again with you!

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:55 am

As AJ said so well, I too come here because of the great members, superb moderators, classy discussions, and interesting topics. I am biased - I think this is the best forum on the web, but then again, I have no others to compare it to, as I simply don't have time to visit others. Victor, you are one of the members I look forward to reading posts from, and I will miss doing so. Don't be gone too long!

I agree, we are all guests here, so need to keep that in mind. However, I'd also say that 99% of the membership is made up of adult males, never known for their lack of opinions. My son, Y2K, is one of the 1% "other", being a juvenile, and I have no problems with him reading any of the posts I’ve seen. If I did, I wouldn’t have agreed to sign him up. If it became bad, I wouldn’t allow him back here, but neither would I ask everyone else to change because he occasionally visits (very “occasionally”; between school, scouts, archery, etc., he has less time than I do!).

My two cents…

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:46 am

Via Con Dios, Victor !

May the wind always run warm for you - and keep the sun at your back.

.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:20 am

mod71alaska wrote:I stepped back for a few days to consider my response to the deletion of a recent post of mine and subsequent locked thread in which I expressed my opinion that I didn't like it. In this time I have given considerable thought to the PMs and emails I have received, all of which I greatly appreciated. It has become clear to me that I need to leave the Forum for a while.

I was miffed when my original post to YK's thread http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=25069 was deleted for the use of a double entendre with cat house and cathouse, and cat, bunny and dog metaphors. My post was not lost in cyber as some suggested might have happened. It was deleted. Since I never thought my post possibly would be deleted by a moderator, I didn't copy it and can't quote it exactly. It was harmless albeit subtly and mildly risque as most adult double entendres and mixed metaphors are.

I've explained the rules until I'm blue in the fingers. Perhaps you would understand if I explained it again. You came into our living room and you embarrassed me in front of my wife, mother and daughter with your "harmless double entendre". I would have thrown you out of my house and merely deleted your post which YOU KNEW was inappropriate. I have no apology for that.

Then my thread "Yet another post deleted without a word..." was locked by a Forum moderator. That shocked and angered me. In that thread I politely but directly expressed my opinion that I didn't like having my post deleted and further that it "seems to me that the LGF is becoming more like a touchy-feely sensitivity group session than a campfire for Levergunners. I'm expressing my opinion here and if my opinion is deleted, I'm gone! I've NEVER abused the privilege of being a member of this Forum." http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=25119 The moderator's explanation and response before locking the thread was that the forum was a "family place" and said I was out in "the machine shed where a bunch of good old boys chaw baccy and spit on the floor while trying to out do the others in "macho" behavior." While I totally respect the moderator as a fellow levergunner and for his commitment to this Forum, I deeply resent that characterization and stand on the integrity of my reputation as a long time contributing member to the Leverguns Forum.

I generally lock topics which are nothing more than beating a dead horse. As I have explained numerous times, this isn't a private men's club,it isn't the back of an M113, it isn't a bar. I do not say such things in front of my wife, daughter, or other ladies.

It might be the weather, but actually I don't think so. What I think is the current "possibly offensive" sensitivity standard that is applied for determining censorship on the Leverguns Forum severely limits discussion of adult ideas, stifles adult opinions, and limits clever and appropriate humor. That someone...and specifically someone's child or mother...might be offended????? When our speech is limited by the "possibility of someone being offended" we severely limit the dialog and exchange of content among us. Is bland content all we want? I believe different ideas...even mine here that might be provocative to some...bring about the healthy exchange of opinions, which leads to thinking about different ideas and opinions beyond your own, which leads to finding the best policies, or at least knowing how we each think about things. I think that's really good! To bring this back to leverguns, isn't that what the second amendment is all about...to protect that market place of expression? I will say emphatically that I would not intentionally say something rudely offensive to a fellow Levergunner or their family. Nor to anyone I might encounter. That doesn't mean they might not be offended by something I say! There is a huge difference between those two concepts. I think posts on the Forum should be allowed...even encouraged...to be stimulating, challenging and provocative, which does not include rudeness. What it means is the exchange of ideas, opinions and humor essentially not dummied down to the level of children (who by all rights should be supervised by their parents on the Forum like they should be supervised in all their activities) or limited by the often aging sensitivities of our mothers, who more than likely aren't even Levergunners on the Forum. That's pretty direct (and not at all meant to be insulting) but that's how I feel. My double entendre didn't offend anyone. If it did I think they need to toughen up or join an appropriate, very young children's forum. I also am certain my Christian mother would have chuckled reading my post and come back with a clever response. I have said nothing rudely offensive to anyone of normal sensibilities on this Forum which would warrant having my posts deleted or locked.

I don't censor opinions, I delete offensive language the standards of which have been clearly stated since 2003. What we do is recognize that we've been invited into the home of a certain person and we are expected to behave with a certain decorum. If you think that certain language should be allowed just to make the forum stimulating, challenging and provocative you need to go elsewhere.

You all are my Levergunner friends. Many of you have rifles I've sold you. Many more have become personal and Christian friends as we have journeyed here together. So, it makes me sad that I feel I need to step away from the Forum for a while. I just so strongly object to the deletion of posts and the locking of threads when a Levergunner expresses a provocative idea, thought, or bit of humor.

Victor
aka mod71alaska

PS: I have expressed my views publicly and would ask that you do the same here rather than sending a PM or email. Thank you all.

I like you Victor. In all the years you've been here you've said and done nothing wrong. In your business dealings with all members you've been above reproach.

I considered your comment to be nothing more than forgetting where you were "in the moment" and merely deleting your post to be the equivalent of raising an eyebrow that you would have caught the meaning of. Apparently you have chosen to become mightly offended. I'm sorry for that but it is entirely on your part to have become offended. To expect that, in your complaint, you should muzzle MY response so that I don't offend YOU further I believe is somewhat ill considered.

However, you make the point and I recognize that we have a number of new and not so new members who feel that they should be able to speak as they do in THEIR homes. While I would clearly never correct you in your home (I would simply excuse myself and leave) I'm clearly out of sync with those people in following what I consider to be my charge from Paco and JimT. I can see that my time and efforts in making this a safe place for Huntress and her family, Sighthunter, Y2K and others to visit might not be appreciated AND it certainly does take a lot of my time.

As to censorship. Only the government can "censor" you. Here you, we all, are guests. We don't own this place we are visitors and guests. All of us might become so comfortable here that we forget our place, that we are visitors and guests. When that happens in my home my guests become unwelcome and will be asked to leave. I feel certain that if I came into your home and somehow insulted your family you would ask me to leave. Judging from this response to the deletion of a single post, you'd likely be pretty emphatic about my departure.

One can't have double standards either. One can't treat one person here differently than all others. I'm already in the position of deferring to other moderators and the owner in certain matters because I don't own this board (a common misconception) and am merely the "hired" help so far as my work as a moderator goes.

I have made many friends here. I consider them true friends. I think that I owe something to my friend Paco to help maintain this forum but I certainly don't want to be a distraction. Perhaps I should revisit certain commitments...

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:22 am

I've had some posts deleted and prior moved - when they were political really... and I understand not having the time to do everything like PM'ing the author and moving the thread, etc. when really guys, we should know if something is political - for example. Just re-post in the political forum and its done.

I also recently had another post deleted - I think for some of the replies more than the post itself - but it was rather divisive in retrospect... but that's life - I took no offense to the deletion.

As to the cat-house thing - I don't know what exactly was typed but it must have gone far enough as to warrent a deletion. Or maybe the mod was just short fused from having so many reported threads or something...?

I'm not willing to critisize too harshly the mods as I don't want the job myself! I've done it before on another, older board and it takes a lot of time and you never seem to be entirely right, never please everybody, always manage to offend somebody. Yet, the alternative is anarchy and "road house" behavior. If you like that, I can direct you to such - but be ready, guns loaded - you will need them!

Mod71 - take a break if you must, but then come back in. This is a great board and you are part of it.

IMHO

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:31 am

FWiedner wrote:Odd place where one fellow can openly solicit funds for risque photos and another gets kicked for saying cat-house.

We had a discussion on the risquee photos in which that was to be ended. Did I somehow miss something while caring for Mom? If so it wasn't intended.

There are a number of assumptions pervasive in these discussions.
- that Hobie is always the moderator that deletes/edits posts
- that posters never make mistakes that lose their posts
- that the software is without fault
- that Hobie (or other moderators) see every single post
- that forum members are likewise omniscient and more so than the moderators
- that life is fair and perfect

Post by **AmBraCol** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:57 am

Hobie pretty much covers the issue in his reply above. Sometimes I wonder about his sanity - why would he put up with the abuse heaped on him by folks who consistently ignore the rules or attempt to push the boundaries that have been set forth? For that matter, why do I? My first reaction this morning as to say something I'd later regret. So I set down the keyboard and walked away. That is not hard to do, if one values the friendships and relationships found on this forum. But apparently some folks have a tough time reining in their impulses.

leverguns.com is registered to JimT. He and Paco set up the site and the forum that was originally hosted on sixgunner.com as a subdomain. With the demise of sixgunner.com, the forum started having technical problems. At that point I volunteered to host the forum on its own domain and Paco took me up on the offer. levergunscommunity.com and levergunscommunity.org are registered to me personally. When our original server was unable to handle the needs of the forum we transferred it to a server of its own and set up a private database server to handle the MySQL needs of the software. While many people have contributed over the years for the costs of the hosting, the original idea and the domain names are the private property of the respective people involved.

There is no more censorship here than there is in your own home. I would no more walk into the home of the avowed atheists on this forum and begin to berate them or attempt to persuade them that their views are wrong than I would walk into the Vatican and spit on the floor or do any of a number of things in a number of places where I disagree with the people who live or work there. It is something one does not do because one was brought up to respect others, and especially to respect the homes and views of other people.

So why do people continue to attempt to lower the standards of the content of this forum? One is left only with the conclusion that it is due to the lack of respect they have for the respective founders and owners of the intellectual and virtual property involved.

But I'm still wondering why Hobie puts up with the stuff he puts up with - in return for the lack of gratitude and personal attacks he receives. And that lack of gratitude is obviously not general because the majority of the people here ARE grateful to him and his efforts. But the good ol' 80/20 rule raises its ugly head. 20 percent of the denizens of the forum tend to create 80 percent of the problems, etc, etc.

We all are free to come and go as we choose. If one person decides they need to raise a stink and go - that is their choice, they can do what they want. If they choose to simply lay off the 'net for a while - that is their choice, they can do what they want. But by typing in http://www.levergunscommunity.com and logging in, they are choosing to limit themselves to the behaviors which are acceptable to the people who own and moderate the website. If the behaviors they want to indulge in are different from those which are acceptable to the owners and moderators of the forum, then they are free to take their behaviors to a place where they ARE acceptable. We'll mop up and go about business as usual.

And Hobie - I thank you for the work you've put into the site. You've helped to make it a great place to hang one's @. You have my vote of confidence in the matter of decisions you've made and you've handled many sticky situations far better than I could.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:04 am

Victor,

I join with the others in lamenting your choice to "step back from the forum." You are a good friend to this forum, your knowledge and willingness to share same with this group is much appreciated.

I also deplore censorship. Yet, practice it wholeheartedly and in the spirit of the forum in my posts. Listen, I'm a truck driver and former sailor... I own a couple performance autos, been known to indulge in an adult beverage and a cigar... I think I know every social, racial or ethnic epitath in English and a few in several other languages... and their proper and most damaging context... Why I've even received official government training in them! I'm a coarse, plain spoken individual... As a former LEO, I fall back on the advice I was given as a young cop... speak to each individual as though they were your minister. I do tend to leave off the "Sir" or "Madam" here'bouts... but.

Whether I've ever had a post deleted... ain't sure, but I also know that a coupla times, I've purposely pressed on the envelope, and chastised myself for doing so.

Cabin fever... it's tough on a body. Even tougher on a mind. Be well Victor, 'till we meet again.

crs · Post by **crs** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:08 am

Victor,
We will miss you while you take a break and we will welcome you back when you return.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:30 am

Victor,

Just step back take a while think about things and come back!

I have got to say though,I have been on some other Forums and this is the best by far. WHY????
What makes it the best????? The People??? The Rules ??????? The Mods????? Paco ???????/

What is it ????
It's ALL OF THOSE THINGS ABOVE. This forum did not evolve due to a bunch of GREAT people just coming on here instead of the other places.This place is a CLASS ACT as far as Forums go. All the trash/name slinging/and on and on which so many of the other Forums have is unreal.

It is because of the Hard Work that the Mod's put in on this on their own dime----------For Us.

Hey, I have said some stuff that,I don,t know maybe woke up on the wrong side of bed/somthing bothered me/maybe winter too long/maybe just did it because I was not being very smart at the time.
If our Mod's on here think about deleting it I know in my heart"yep it's their home I am in and I need a wake up call"

I have never seen two Mod's on ANY Forum that were more Honarable/Respectful/and just flat out cared about the people on here.
These guy's have to make/enforce rules-------unless you want this forum to become like all the rest of the forums which will attract problems you can't imagine.

I cannot imagine the extra grief right now Hobie is having put on him(like he don't have enough.
Did you read above about Hobie thinking about maybe revaluating some things of his own??

Do you guy's want Hobie to leave or AmBraCol to leave ????? I sure as heck don't.These guy's are overworked because a bunch of us(YES, ME TOO) have at overstepped the bounds at times.
For that I am very sorry but mostly sorry to the Mod's for all the grief.
I say if someone don't like the rules and want it to be like all the other Forums---then sad to say --Leave.

To Hobie and AmBraCol -----I am sorry for the junk I have thrown on here at times and please do not even remotely consider leaving or just plain shutting down the Forum because that would be a Tragedy.

Going to tell ya right now----------we are pushing them too hard!
Hobie please know that you are a first class man as well as AmBraCol and I would treasure either of you two in my Home.
For those of you that think this is sucking up-------------your wrong because these guy's are about at the end of their rope and if they leave(I sure am gone) and everyone can sit at their keyboards and ?????????

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:34 am

Well said, madman

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:47 am

I have been a member of this forum for some time. I rarely post (maybe I should do more), but I come for the fellowship and learn from the knowledge and experiences of others. However, I understand that I am not in my own house here and must abide by the "house rules".
I will welcome most anyone in my house but I do have "house rules"; my house, my rules. My kids are all grown and gone but you would not come to my house and talk in a manner that was inappropriate for my family. You will not smoke in my house. In fact, I had guests on one occasion who smoked in the front yard and I had them pick up their "trash" before they left. That would seem ludicrous to some but I do not care.
I appreciate the job done and the time that Hobie, Paco, and others spend in keeping this a classy forum. These men and many of those on this forum are welcome at my campfire anytime.

Phil

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:51 am

"Big Brother" is here, too, Vic. Political correctness rules the day, no matter where we are.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:58 am

Bigahh wrote:Victor, Your knowledge will be missed by more than just myself I am sure.It Maybe a good thing to step away, but I hope you come back. There already has been some "Good" guys not come back, and I would hate to see it again with you!

+ 1

wilko · Post by **wilko** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:36 am

AmBraCol wrote: leverguns.com is registered to JimT. He and Paco set up the site and the forum that was originally hosted on sixgunner.com as a subdomain. With the demise of sixgunner.com, the forum started having technical problems. At that point I volunteered to host the forum on its own domain and Paco took me up on the offer. levergunscommunity.com and levergunscommunity.org are registered to me personally. When our original server was unable to handle the needs of the forum we transferred it to a server of its own and set up a private database server to handle the MySQL needs of the software. While many people have contributed over the years for the costs of the hosting, the original idea and the domain names are the private property of the respective people involved.

So why do people continue to attempt to lower the standards of the content of this forum? One is left only with the conclusion that it is due to the lack of respect they have for the respective founders and owners of the intellectual and virtual property involved.

But by typing in http://www.levergunscommunity.com and logging in, they are choosing to limit themselves to the behaviors which are acceptable to the people who own and moderate the website. If the behaviors they want to indulge in are different from those which are acceptable to the owners and moderators of the forum, then they are free to take their behaviors to a place where they ARE acceptable. We'll mop up and go about business as usual.

This is the ONLY forum i visit every day.. I guess we all need a reminder every now and then that we are guests and stick to the rules. Thank you Hobie and Paul for keeping this forum "home"

Post by **AmBraCol** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:38 am

Mike D. wrote:"Big Brother" is here, too, Vic. Political correctness rules the day, no matter where we are.

With all due respect, Sir. It's not a matter of "Big Brother" nor of "politically correct". It is a matter of respectful behavior in another's domain. And that, Sir, is what has been diminishing for sometime on this forum.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:58 am

So how about them Cowboys

Sorry just couldent resist. Getting a little to intence in here.

Time for a YK gun picture with the trimmings.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:07 pm

AmBraCol wrote:
Mike D. wrote:"Big Brother" is here, too, Vic. Political correctness rules the day, no matter where we are.
With all due respect, Sir. It's not a matter of "Big Brother" nor of "politically correct". It is a matter of respectful behavior in another's domain. And that, Sir, is what has been diminishing for sometime on this forum.

Paul, it might be productive to contact offenders...heck, I might be one for all I know...instead of paint with a brush that is covering everyone on the Forum

There are good and respectful people who feel stung with this exercise.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:16 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Paul, it might be productive to contact offenders...heck, I might be one for all I know...instead of paint with a brush that is covering everyone on the Forum There are good and respectful people who feel stung with this exercise.

+1

I am far from the model citizen of the forum, but I try. There is a member that, I'll admit, that gets under my skin at times and gets the best (or worst) of me. I have no idea if this poster has ever been privately contacted about their rude, offensive behavior, but it seems to linger on.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:21 pm

I hate cats, they just cause trouble where ever they go

Only kidding, only kidding

I am really sorry someone got real upset again.
I am also feeling for Big H and Paul, their intray is to full at the mo and that includes grieving possibly!

99% of folk on here are true examples of decency and no I don't know who the 1% is and don't care, it is vigilance that keeps it so. The mods trust us on here most the time and we trust the desisions the mods make most the time but like it or lump it they and we are humans without the blessing Adam and Eve had of perfection. We all can screw up. Now from where I'm standing this ain't no serious screw up, nobody got shot or cut, no one thumped any one.

Ya know sometimes depending on the moon phase or somert my mrs can get real cranky. The good book does say she is the weaker vessel (not weak as in a sub spieces no!) but needing special care sometimes and so I expect it from her but come on fellers now, we ain't supposed to be the weaker vessels now are we!

Lets count our blessings and be gratefull for this place of sanctury in a mad and ever sickening world.

Nath.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:55 pm

So I just had to post this since I feel so strongly about it........

Vic,.... I feel your pain! Contrary to what some may think of me, I too have considered a break once in awhile. And I pray for your quick return.

Nothing on the internet is more frustrating than having a post we feel is NOT outrageous,... deleted. I don't know if you were given a reason, but without the common decency of a conversation explaining the deletion,.... the pain cuts even deeper.

I came here under a recommendation by an old member here, recommended by his statement that this site is most forgiving for being a human. Most forgiving for those (like myself) who are quick to defend themselves from personal attack or to point out insults to fellow members,...on occasion. YES personal attack! No matter how much that is considered BS by some,... there are personal attacks and some have been taught their entire life to defend themselves against such,.... as I have. Not an easy reaction to control sometimes. But, I have found that even the most venomous debates eventually calm to more Christian like thinking, and mellow out when a spec of higher thought is present. ADULTS do have conflict with each other. Fact of life,.... it happens. And Christian ADULTS will usually figure out the conflict and come to a mutual understanding IF LEFT TO THEIR ADULT REASONING.

And this gets back to what I think are your concerns. Vic. In my opinion,...there is a point when moderator intervention can become demeaning to an adult. There is a point where individual moderator attempts at preempting what they decide is going to be a uncontrolled conflict, or, a statement that they conceive as damaging to the soul of the reader becomes overbearing and what seems to be nothing less than a need to express power over others. There is a point where the claim that entering an others house, just seems too convenient. Who opens their home to the world, and expects the vast masses of individuals entering to conform and submit as a home owner expects from his young child? Who would be so pious as to force, without tempered understanding and forgiveness,... adult individuals to submit as a child just for entering a world wide open door web site? What piousness would do such?

Of course one should have respect to their host. Of course civility rules when entering such a open house. But we are all individuals of varied life experiences. What is civil to one adult, may be totally morally demeaning to another. And I feel moderators who act in a omnipotent manner create reactions as Vic is expressing. He seems like a well liked and civil member here. He seems so civil that I had no idea he was even here, until this post! And I know those of little civility, for I have been in he middle of them many times here.

As I have stated more than once,.... I feel very grateful to Hobie's willingness to understand that adults are from varied backgrounds, with different learned lesson in life, and that an across the board standard forcing everyone into a one size fits all mold is just NOT REALISTIC! I know he hasn't any soft spot for me, but I truly respect the manner in which he has dealt with me and my Greek/Viking quick to react personality. He has shown me the respect I needed to make me think and indulge in self examination in my more cerebral moments. He has made me WANT to be a better member here! That is a moderator a person of different learning's in life does not fear to be guided or chastised by,... in my opinion. What would this board become if all who could not fit within a unilaterally defined mold were to be exiled? What would become of the world if such mind set were to be resurrected from the times when power hungry fascists tried forcing the world into their ideas of what was their NORM?

After being here for the time I have,.... I believe their is a religious undertone that may be becoming forcefully dominant here, rather than guiding. Do to one individual's need to be a Shepard of sheep, rather than a brother to brothers. I believe this is what has esoterically effected and upset Vic. This is a gun site that has opened its doors to the entire world, not a church inviting all to fellowship,.... unless I am totally mistaken? No matter the effort of any individual to confuse the two and cross that line of distinction between Church and gun site,...and as much as we all try to share and incorporate our beliefs that we believe lift us, and others, to a better place,... there is a place and time for such teachings that may be more appropriate than a world wide gun site. And no matter how many want to set standards that their grandmother, wife, child would be happy with,... that is just not realistic in the real world. Not that it is not a fine goal,.... but, their has to be room for realism, in my opinion. I see such harsh tunnel vision as borderline religious fanaticism. And whether it be Christian fanaticism or Islamic fanaticism,... forcing one's beliefs and personal scripture interpretations upon one who has not solicited such guidance, is just not Christ like,.... in my opinion.

Vic,...I pray for your quick return.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:18 pm

EDIT: Deleted because this post overlapped another post and I got confused, lost, slobbered on myself, had to call the attendant, and fell off the bacck porch looking for the bathroom.

In other words it was much ado about nothing.

RSY · Post by **RSY** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:21 pm

Modoc ED wrote:Gotta say there was no need to start a new thread. Since your thread involves Vic's post, that was the best place for this post.

You're missing his point. The thread was locked WHILE he was composing his reply.

mod71alaska · Post by **mod71alaska** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:02 pm

Since I started this thread I wanted you to know my thoughts upon further reflection....

Maybe it was mostly the weather after all. I should have recognized the possibility of cabin fever after nearly 30 years in Alaska!

I visit this Forum everyday. You have become my trusted friends even though we have not met in person. I turn to you daily for your friendship, knowledge, advice, and to many of you for your fellowship in Christian faith. All right here in this Forum we call our campfire! It is our campfire because we are invited and welcomed to the circle.

I have read through the entirety of the thread several times. There's something to learn from everyone's point of view. This has been the free and civil exchange of ideas at its best! I am back...in my heart I just couldn't be gone long...and would like to quote from redhawk's post if I may: "I understand that I am not in my own house here and must abide by the "house rules"." Indeed, I thought I understood that.

I couldn't say this better than Nath: "Let's count our blessings and be grateful for this place of sanctuary..."

Thank you all.

Victor

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:09 pm

Welcome back. How things been?

GUNS!