?LEADING?

[76/444]

Just had to do this instead of hyjacking the 450 hot load post.

Over the years and years of research I have done,....the cause of LEADING has become perfectly clear to me.

Leading is caused by gasses escaping around and, or, in front of the boolit, after powder ignition.

NOT from the speed of the boolit.

Yes, slugging the bore and making sure the boolit fits is imperative as gas checked designs, to prevent leading.

Thisi is what I have gleaned from all those who know more than me, because I wouldn't have figured this out in a hundred years without them being gracious enough to share what they learned from their teachers!

Anyone with contradicting facts,.... please advice me.

Otherwise,.... I really think folks should stop associating velocity of cast lead projectiles with leading.

[Buck Elliott]

That pretty-well covers it.

[Chas.]

Yep. That pretty well describes the problem. The solution is not so simple - getting the right combination of speed and bullet size and hardness. Some claim they've found the solution for their rifle and can shoot cast greater than 2000fps w/o gas checks and w/o leading. I...don't....know 'bout that though.

[kooz]

Yes, slugging the bore and making sure the boolit fits is imperative as gas checked designs, to prevent leading.

When a bullet is used that is of the proper size AND hardness for the gun and pressure of the load being used, it will obturate and "bump" up to seal the bore and leading does not happen, assuming the firearm in question is dimensionaly correct and the bore surface is good. Hard commercial cast bullets combined with out of spec guns (cyl throats, tight spots in the bbl etc.) are to blame for the majority of leading issues.

[Buck Elliott]

Have not pushed my .45-70 much over 2,000 fps with any bullet, but have no leading problems with plain- or bevel-based bullets at that speed, using .459" diameter hard-cast slugs, over H-335 powder.

In the .454 rifle, I pushed 270-grain hard-cast pills at 2,400 fps, just for test purposes, and experienced minimal lead streaking near the breech end of the barrel with that load. A hard paper disk of proper diameter inserted under the bullet almost completely eliminated the leading. The paper acted as a gas-seal gasket. I could often find the disks several yards downrange, and most were amazingly intact and undamaged, even after 60,000 psi chamber pressure had been applied.

[76/444]

Yep. That pretty well describes the problem. The solution is not so simple - getting the right combination of speed and bullet size and hardness. Some claim they've found the solution for their rifle and can shoot cast greater than 2000fps w/o gas checks and w/o leading. I...don't....know 'bout that though.

If you haven't tried it,... to have factual proof to disprove it,... I would not publish OPINION as a comment of disbelief. As I opened with in this thread.................


VELOCITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LEADING


Or, did you miss that part?

Now,.... do to your post,.... I will also add that LEAD HARDNESS (the other leading myth) has NOTHING TO DO WITH LEADING!!!

[76/444]

Yes, slugging the bore and making sure the boolit fits is imperative as gas checked designs, to prevent leading.

When a bullet is used that is of the proper size AND hardness for the gun and pressure of the load being used, it will obturate and "bump" up to seal the bore and leading does not happen, assuming the firearm in question is dimensionaly correct and the bore surface is good. Hard commercial cast bullets combined with out of spec guns (cyl throats, tight spots in the bbl etc.) are to blame for the majority of leading issues.

Ahhhhh, I just love the internet parroting.

From one parrot to another ,... NO SIR ,... "bumping" up can ONLY be accomplished with the early and extreme pressure spike of Black Powder and other similar explosive smokeless powders. This I learned right here by a member with actual pressure spike read outs. Lead softness or hardness has never been related to me as a factor in "bumping up". If you have facts to the contrary, I am all eyes!


p.s. I do agree with the ability of a dented, pitted, poor grade, or out of spec bores do collect lead. But I also believe that to be the exception, rather than the norm. imo

[76/444]

Have not pushed my .45-70 much over 2,000 fps with any bullet, but have no leading problems with plain- or bevel-based bullets at that speed, using .459" diameter hard-cast slugs, over H-335 powder.

In the .454 rifle, I pushed 270-grain hard-cast pills at 2,400 fps, just for test purposes, and experienced minimal lead streaking near the breech end of the barrel with that load. A hard paper disk of proper diameter inserted under the bullet almost completely eliminated the leading. The paper acted as a gas-seal gasket. I could often find the disks several yards downrange, and most were amazingly intact and undamaged, even after 60,000 psi chamber pressure had been applied.

Nice tip,... I 'll have to remember that if I ever come upon a deal on non gas checked cast slugs!

(that's two new things in one day Buck, your out doing yourself)

[Ray Newman]

76/444: what role do you think "bullet lubricant" plays?....

[kooz]

Yes, slugging the bore and making sure the boolit fits is imperative as gas checked designs, to prevent leading.

When a bullet is used that is of the proper size AND hardness for the gun and pressure of the load being used, it will obturate and "bump" up to seal the bore and leading does not happen, assuming the firearm in question is dimensionaly correct and the bore surface is good. Hard commercial cast bullets combined with out of spec guns (cyl throats, tight spots in the bbl etc.) are to blame for the majority of leading issues.

Ahhhhh, I just love the internet parroting.

From one parrot to another ,... NO SIR ,... "bumping" up can ONLY be accomplished with the early and extreme pressure spike of Black Powder and other similar explosive smokeless powders. This I learned right here by a member with actual pressure spike read outs. Lead softness or hardness has never been related to me as a factor in "bumping up". If you have facts to the contrary, I am all eyes!


p.s. I do agree with the ability of a dented, pitted, poor grade, or out of spec bores do collect lead. But I also believe that to be the exception, rather than the norm. imo

You're right....you must be, you have a much higher post count than me. I don't get to visit here much as you do as I am to busy actually casting and shooting. Take care and enjoy the rest of what has obviously become an internet professional only conversation. This parrot is out !

[Don McDowell]

[
Ahhhhh, I just love the internet parroting.

From one parrot to another ,... NO SIR ,... "bumping" up can ONLY be accomplished with the early and extreme pressure spike of Black Powder and other similar explosive smokeless powders. This I learned right here by a member with actual pressure spike read outs. Lead softness or hardness has never been related to me as a factor in "bumping up". If you have facts to the contrary, I am all eyes!

You weren't doing to bad until you got to this nonsense.
Ray asks a good question and I am curious to see your answer.
As to bullets only bumping up with black powder, my suggestion to you would be if you can't automatically reason that out in your head, maybe get your dead butt off the computer over to the loading bench and do some actuall shooting and recover some bullets.
Once you do that you'll be back to appologize to Koos for your wrong headed , poorly facted and inexperienced rant.

[76/444]

76/444: what role do you think "bullet lubricant" plays?....

Here's a good read on lube,.... for you.


http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm

[76/444]

[
Ahhhhh, I just love the internet parroting.

From one parrot to another ,... NO SIR ,... "bumping" up can ONLY be accomplished with the early and extreme pressure spike of Black Powder and other similar explosive smokeless powders. This I learned right here by a member with actual pressure spike read outs. Lead softness or hardness has never been related to me as a factor in "bumping up". If you have facts to the contrary, I am all eyes!

You weren't doing to bad until you got to this nonsense.
Ray asks a good question and I am curious to see your answer.
As to bullets only bumping up with black powder, my suggestion to you would be if you can't automatically reason that out in your head, maybe get your dead butt off the computer over to the loading bench and do some actuall shooting and recover some bullets.
Once you do that you'll be back to appologize to Koos for your wrong headed , poorly facted and inexperienced rant.

A little reading comprehension goes a long way, guy.

"bumping" up can ONLY be accomplished with the early and extreme pressure spike of Black Powder and other similar explosive smokeless powders. "



Now, my intent was to diffuse the internet propagated MYTH that boolit velocity causes leading,... and YOUR contribution to this subject is......?

[Griff]

I dare say, have you never experienced leading caused by a lack, less than adequate application or improper utilization of lube? I have. Flame-cutting ain't the ONLY source of leading.

[76/444]

I dare say, have you never experienced leading caused by a lack, less than adequate application or improper utilization of lube? I have. Flame-cutting ain't the ONLY source of leading.

OK,... I always thought lack of lube that can act as a gas check measure on smaller than bore diameter boolits would allow "flame cutting",.... and that is was the "flame cutting", due to that lack of lube that would cause leading.

[Hobie]

Yep. That pretty well describes the problem. The solution is not so simple - getting the right combination of speed and bullet size and hardness. Some claim they've found the solution for their rifle and can shoot cast greater than 2000fps w/o gas checks and w/o leading. I...don't....know 'bout that though.

If you haven't tried it,... to have factual proof to disprove it,... I would not publish OPINION as a comment of disbelief. As I opened with in this thread.................


VELOCITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LEADING


Or, did you miss that part?

Now,.... do to your post,.... I will also add that LEAD HARDNESS (the other leading myth) has NOTHING TO DO WITH LEADING!!!

I don't think we can say "nothing" in either case. I think that alloy and speed can exacerbate leading due to ill-fitting bullets, rough bores, insufficient lubrication, etc.

[76/444]

Yep. That pretty well describes the problem. The solution is not so simple - getting the right combination of speed and bullet size and hardness. Some claim they've found the solution for their rifle and can shoot cast greater than 2000fps w/o gas checks and w/o leading. I...don't....know 'bout that though.

If you haven't tried it,... to have factual proof to disprove it,... I would not publish OPINION as a comment of disbelief. As I opened with in this thread.................


VELOCITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LEADING


Or, did you miss that part?

Now,.... do to your post,.... I will also add that LEAD HARDNESS (the other leading myth) has NOTHING TO DO WITH LEADING!!!

I don't think we can say "nothing" in either case. I think that alloy and speed can exacerbate leading due to ill-fitting bullets, rough bores, insufficient lubrication, etc.

And this is why I posted my opinion,... to get others.

But I believe all the above you have written have more to do with leading than velocity...... bottom line,....I believe all you have listed allows "flame cutting? Meaning "flame cutting" being the culprit in leading, and not the velocity.

Just because the list of things you and others have posted, can and does cause leading,... doesn't negate my opinion that velocity has nothing to do with leading.

With the full list of leading causing factors, addressed properly,.... I don't believe leading will be experienced at any velocity.

[Don McDowell]

[quote="76/444"bumping" up can ONLY be accomplished with the early and extreme pressure spike of Black Powder and other similar explosive smokeless powders. "



Now, my intent was to diffuse the internet propagated MYTH that boolit velocity causes leading,... and YOUR contribution to this subject is......?[/quote]

A little bit of experience goes a bit further than reading comprehension.
It doesn't matter whether its black powder or Smokeless powder either one will only bump an alloy so far. How far a bullet will bump up depends on the hardness of that alloy. It's a simple thing to start testing say paper patch bullets. Use the same mold and only change the alloy. When the alloy gets to hard the bullets ceases to bump up, fill the rifling and poor accuracy combined with tumbling bullets will be the result. This happens with either smokeless or black powder charges.
You can do the same thing with hard grease groove bullets to small for the bore of a rifle. Won't matter much which powder you use, either one will get you leading and recovered bullets will show virtually the same amount of land engraving, with the recovered smokeless fired bullets showing a slight bit more of engraving due to the higher pressures exerting more force onto the bullet.
Also what often times get overlooked is the length of recovered cast bulllets, the softer the alloy the shorter they'll be, the soft alloy "bumped" up more than the harder alloy and the harder bullets will be closer to original length.
Lube is extremely important no matter what the bullet size or powder charge. If a lube does not coat the inside of the barrel to keep the bullet from "tinning" itself to the steel on it's trip down the barrel you will get leading.Once you get some leading started that chunk will continue to strip chunks from the succedding bullets, until it's sometime possible to get a string of lead 1/2 inch long out on a patch.
Alot of this is why the age old recommendation of bullets being .001-.002 over groove diameter. Going over that diameter can cause finning of a bullet whereby the base will be cupped and the grooves left in the bullet will be extended somewhat over the base like a "fin".
Where the leading is in the barrel will tell you alot about what is going on. Close to the throat alloy is to soft, and or to small, further down the barrel, the lube isn't doing the job it needs to be doing. Oft times the addition of a grease cookie or modern "wax check" will solve some leading problems. As will a good coating of Liquid Alox on undersized bullets.
Sometimes in oversized chambers you're just screwed, because by the time you get a bullet up to the size it fills the throat adequately accuracy will go to pot due to finning and instability of the bullet. Conversely chambers to small for the barrel you can't get a large enough diameter bullet to seal off the bore, and leading will be present and accuracy will be short lived.

[76/444]

[quote="76/444"bumping" up can ONLY be accomplished with the early and extreme pressure spike of Black Powder and other similar explosive smokeless powders. "



Now, my intent was to diffuse the internet propagated MYTH that boolit velocity causes leading,... and YOUR contribution to this subject is......?

A little bit of experience goes a bit further than reading comprehension.
It doesn't matter whether its black powder or Smokeless powder either one will only bump an alloy so far. How far a bullet will bump up depends on the hardness of that alloy. It's a simple thing to start testing say paper patch bullets. Use the same mold and only change the alloy. When the alloy gets to hard the bullets ceases to bump up, fill the rifling and poor accuracy combined with tumbling bullets will be the result. This happens with either smokeless or black powder charges.
You can do the same thing with hard grease groove bullets to small for the bore of a rifle. Won't matter much which powder you use, either one will get you leading and recovered bullets will show virtually the same amount of land engraving, with the recovered smokeless fired bullets showing a slight bit more of engraving due to the higher pressures exerting more force onto the bullet.
Also what often times get overlooked is the length of recovered cast bulllets, the softer the alloy the shorter they'll be, the soft alloy "bumped" up more than the harder alloy and the harder bullets will be closer to original length.
Lube is extremely important no matter what the bullet size or powder charge. If a lube does not coat the inside of the barrel to keep the bullet from "tinning" itself to the steel on it's trip down the barrel you will get leading.Once you get some leading started that chunk will continue to strip chunks from the succedding bullets, until it's sometime possible to get a string of lead 1/2 inch long out on a patch.
Alot of this is why the age old recommendation of bullets being .001-.002 over groove diameter. Going over that diameter can cause finning of a bullet whereby the base will be cupped and the grooves left in the bullet will be extended somewhat over the base like a "fin".
Where the leading is in the barrel will tell you alot about what is going on. Close to the throat alloy is to soft, and or to small, further down the barrel, the lube isn't doing the job it needs to be doing. Oft times the addition of a grease cookie or modern "wax check" will solve some leading problems. As will a good coating of Liquid Alox on undersized bullets.
Sometimes in oversized chambers you're just screwed, because by the time you get a bullet up to the size it fills the throat adequately accuracy will go to pot due to finning and instability of the bullet. Conversely chambers to small for the barrel you can't get a large enough diameter bullet to seal off the bore, and leading will be present and accuracy will be short lived.[/quote]


Good info,.... thanks.

What,... if any,... would be your difference in defining "leading" from "smearing"?

[Don McDowell]

No diference , just different words for the same thing.

[76/444]

No diference , just different words for the same thing.

Hmmmmmm,... and have you ever hand rolled some ammo,... did all the proper fit annnnnnd procedures,... which STILL leaded up,... yet,... when charge/ velocity was reworked,.... ended/stopped the leading?

In other words, the only changed factor that eliminated leading,... was a change in velocity.

[Don McDowell]

No not really. A load seems to either lead or not. But then I don't push cast bullets to the limits some do either. I have ran "soft" plain based bullets wayyyy past the point that most folks scream you'll lead your barrel with no troubles so long as the bullet fit and lube was good to start with. But I use cast bullets up to around 1800 fps sometimes, anything beyond that is one of the good reasons they spent all that time trying to perfect the jacketed bullet.
Another thing oft overlooked in causing leading is proper flaring of the case mouth , case neck tension not being excessive. and using to much crimp. Those are easily checked before you fire a round. Load you bullet into the case take the round to the bullet puller and break the load down. If you got the base shaved off, not enough flare. If the lube grooves are smeared to much neck tension (get a larger expander ball) and if you've got to much crimp you'll see where the case mouth "bit" the bullet, that'll tear a chunk out of the bullet when the powder kicks it in the butt.

[76/444]

You're a gentleman and a hand rolling scholar, Don,... and I thank you for sharing!!

[Don McDowell]

NO problem thats what these boards are supposed to be for, folks sharing information.

[1886]

If revolvers have not been covered, it is not at all uncommon for there to be a slight constriction in the bore just forward of the frame. This happens when the barrel is screwed into the frame. This commonly leads to leading in the lead portion of the bore. Then there are times when there seems to be no reason for leading at all... Loading and shooting cast bullets is a sort of a black art. 1886.

[Griff]

No diference , just different words for the same thing.

Hmmmmmm,... and have you ever hand rolled some ammo,... did all the proper fit annnnnnd procedures,... which STILL leaded up,... yet,... when charge/ velocity was reworked,.... ended/stopped the leading?
In other words, the only changed factor that eliminated leading,... was a change in velocity.

No simple answer... but in a manner of speaking, yes. However, although velocity remained constant, it was really fixed by using a harder alloy, bullets were still sized the same, same lube & same rifle. I finally scrapped that formula and went with a gas-checked bullet as I could use a softer lead and still shoot some 400fps faster without leading.

[Ray Newman]

Speaking 'bout revolvers, a rough forcing cone or one not cut to the proper angle will lead along with cylinder throats that might be over or undersized to bore diameter.

[76/444]

No diference , just different words for the same thing.

Hmmmmmm,... and have you ever hand rolled some ammo,... did all the proper fit annnnnnd procedures,... which STILL leaded up,... yet,... when charge/ velocity was reworked,.... ended/stopped the leading?
In other words, the only changed factor that eliminated leading,... was a change in velocity.

No simple answer... but in a manner of speaking, yes. However, although velocity remained constant, it was really fixed by using a harder alloy, bullets were still sized the same, same lube & same rifle. I finally scrapped that formula and went with a gas-checked bullet as I could use a softer lead and still shoot some 400fps faster without leading.

OK, I'm confused

So,...are you saying , even with softer lead, more velocity, ... a gas check preventing "flame cutting" eliminated your leading problem?