New Info from Hodgdon about Trailboss!!

[L_Kilkenny]

What say you?

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

Now obviously many of us have been doing reduced loads with Unique, BlueDot and SR4759. Add another to the list with load work-up description straight from the Manufacture.

LK

[Chuck 100 yd]

Thanks. Pretty much the same info that was in the Hodgdens Annual Manual a couple years ago.

I have been shooting Trail Boss with great results with cast bullets in a bunch of calibers, .50-95 , ,45-70 , .444
, .45Colt , 44Mag. .32-20 , .30-30 , .308 Marlin Exp.
.44 Special. .32 Win. Sp. All did well with it.

[adirondakjack]

Thanks for posting the link. It's good info for those of us who sometimes fly blind, but appreciate it when we don't have to

[wilko]

Thank you for posting this.. i had emailed them before to ask if it was oke to use plated bullets and that was fine... now also jacketed bullets Realy liked the results i got with trialboss

[El Chivo]

I called Hojjjdon recently with some questions about other powders, and the tech raved about Trail Boss. So I got a can, since I've tried everything else.

I've been working on reduced loads for 30-30 and 35 Rem, and accuracy has been poor with rifle powders. I got my best results so far with IMR 4227, which is the fastest I've tried. Maybe Trail Boss will be even better.

I was a little skeptical because it's so fast, but heck, it's worth a try. Also, I was hoping for a little more velocity than their top loads show, to streamline the trajectory a little, but accuracy is the most important thing to me.

A bonus is, if I get a good load, I should be able to dip without weighing. Because there is so much volume compared to weight, a slight volume variation would mean relatively little weight variation and hopefully greater consistency without weighing. That would certainly speed things along.

They also told me it's not temperature sensitive, although it's not listed as an extreme powder it's still pretty good in that area.

Nice that they give you a formula for coming up with a starting load in calibers that they haven't published.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Trail boss in the .308MX

note how the bullets are not completely stable (starting load) a couple grains more and they fly true.

This is the .308MX and IMR 4198 and a plinker load.


Both loads very soft and fun to play with.

[Wildgoose]

I have had good results with reduced loads in 405 WCF using Lyman cast bullets. Bullets cast from wheel weights quinched from the mould and Trial Boss. All shot at 100 yds.

[1894cfan]

I've been using a load of 9.0gr TB with Hornady 86gr JSP in my Winchester 30/30 for a few months now with pretty good results out to 50yds so far. Haven't tried it out to 100yds yet.

[txpete]

I tried the stuff in my ruger bisley 45 colt.nothing to write home about and switched back to unique/titegroup.

hows the trail boss in that 444???.

pete

[KCSO]

I have been using Trail Boss since it came out and have had good luck with it. I mainly load cast bullets and use the trail boss for reduced loads in everything from 30-30 to 7.65 Argentine. I use it mainly for plinking loads, for example in 7.65 I use 6.0 grains of T/B and a 90 grain bullet. This gives me a 32-20 equivlant load and works fine for camp meat and turkeys. I actually have had less sucess with 44 and 45 colt loads as they are not quite as accurate as some other powders. My favorite cast bullet ctg is the 30-40 Krag and T/B shows excellent accuracy there for bothe short and mid range loads.

I do apprecialte the post though as I didn't have the formula before.

[Buck Elliott]

I tried the stuff in my ruger bisley 45 colt.nothing to write home about and switched back to unique/titegroup.

hows the trail boss in that 444???.

pete

Gotta remember that TraiBoss was developed for reduced velocity loads. I like it for CAS & casual plinking with my various .45 Colts. Great loads for teaching women & kids to shoot a revolver also.

[Chuck 100 yd]

txpete , I shoot the .444 with Trail Boss under a Ranch Dog cast bullet of IIRC 300 gr.
13 gr. gives about 1150 fps and all bullets touching each other @50yd. using peep sight on my Marlin .444.
A very soft load that a young child could shoot all day long. A fun plinking load for sure.

[txpete]

thanks chuck.

[AmBraCol]

I tried the stuff in my ruger bisley 45 colt.nothing to write home about and switched back to unique/titegroup.

hows the trail boss in that 444???.

pete

Pete, I received a couple trial size cans of Trail Boss a while back. I loaded up some 45 Colt and then did some 38 SPL. Then I rechecked the data and saw I'd used a higher than listed load for the 38. So I marked that box as "MUST pull-don't shoot" - but didn't have time to do so before leaving the country again. This past summer I was loading up some ammo and came across this box of "hot 38" loaded with Trail Boss. I decided to give it a try anyway - the load was not that much higher than the listed maximum - and it shot fine in my Model 10 S&W. I'm not saying it's a good practice, I'm merely relating what I tried and found to work in MY gun with MY load. Anyone going over factory specs on their load is ON THEIR OWN. I was underwhelmed with the factory listed loads. But this hotter load worked fine for me. I'm not into shooting reduced loads for most stuff. Now I see (from the data in that PDF) that I was actually shooting a bit less than the "Max Load" for the 38. I may have to try loading some up to the base of the bullet one of these days and give it a try. I suspect this would produce a more acceptable (to me) load in my Ruger 45 Colt Vaquero.

[nemhed]

http://www.surplusrifle.com/articles200 ... /index.asp

This link has some good info I've used for Trailboss loads in surplus military rifles. I've played around with 303 Brit loads. Trailboss seems to be a good option for reduced loads in bottle neck cartridges with out resorting to fillers.

[L_Kilkenny]

Then I rechecked the data and saw I'd used a higher than listed load for the 38. So I marked that box as "MUST pull-don't shoot" - but didn't have time to do so before leaving the country again. This past summer I was loading up some ammo and came across this box of "hot 38" loaded with Trail Boss. I decided to give it a try anyway - the load was not that much higher than the listed maximum - and it shot fine in my Model 10 S&W. I'm not saying it's a good practice, I'm merely relating what I tried and found to work in MY gun with MY load.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't trailboss develped so you COULDN'T OVERCHARGE a PISTOL load. It was my understanding that if it fits in the case you're good to go (not talkin compressed loads here).

It's my understanding that the big news in this link is that they are now saying it is acceptable for jacketed bullets. Before this wasn't hodgdon limiting it's use to cast lead only?

LK

[Chuck 100 yd]

L_Kilkenny , I think you are right on the jacketed thing.
I think mainly because if one is shooting jacketed bullets,the reason is usually for better performance, and if velocity is important there are lots better powders than Trail Boss.
I love to shoot cast bullets at Black Powder velocity without the associated mess and TB is just great for that.

[AmBraCol]

Then I rechecked the data and saw I'd used a higher than listed load for the 38. So I marked that box as "MUST pull-don't shoot" - but didn't have time to do so before leaving the country again. This past summer I was loading up some ammo and came across this box of "hot 38" loaded with Trail Boss. I decided to give it a try anyway - the load was not that much higher than the listed maximum - and it shot fine in my Model 10 S&W. I'm not saying it's a good practice, I'm merely relating what I tried and found to work in MY gun with MY load.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't trailboss develped so you COULDN'T OVERCHARGE a PISTOL load. It was my understanding that if it fits in the case you're good to go (not talkin compressed loads here).

It's my understanding that the big news in this link is that they are now saying it is acceptable for jacketed bullets. Before this wasn't hodgdon limiting it's use to cast lead only?

LK

The articles I read stated that it was bulky to prevent DOUBLE charges. It's about the burn rate of Bullseye (IIRC) but since it's bulky you can not double charge it - whereas with Bullseye in a case such as the 45 Colt or 44 Magnum it is VERY EASY to double charge and not catch it with a cursory visual inspection. That is my understanding. I don't have the data right here, but my load was over the max load listed for the 38 spl. Now I'm curious as to what weight would correspond to the guidelines listed in the article referenced above. The 38 is usually listed with very anemic loads due to the number of top break and other weak designed pistols out there for the round. In a heavy duty revolver it can be loaded plenty hot - especially when the bullets are seated long to increase the amount of case space available for expanding gases. In fact, when the 357 came out a lot of guys seated bullets out in 38 spl cases to match 357 OAL and thus get mag loads even though the mag brass was difficult to find. Anyway, the point of impact was closer to the sights with the heavier charge and I was more pleased with the powder loaded this way.

[KWK]

Spiffy. That must be one very fluffy propellant.

[awp101]

2 questions: would these reduced velocity loads be adequate for hunting? Say 100-125yds with .30-06 or 7-08?

Why are the guys in the surplus rifle link setting their sight ladders to 600yds for 50yd shooting? Is there a correlation between the two ranges?

OK, so that's more than two questions...

[adirondakjack]

Spiffy. That must be one very fluffy propellant.

It's not only fluffy, but very fragile and easily crushed. It looks like cheerios, and has that consistency of the granulated chocolate drink mix "PDQ" we had back in the 60s. Since I believe TB is sugar-based, it might well be a similar process If you DO compress TB, be advised it is fast, ala Bullseye and ya durn sure can skyrocket the pressures. But under normal circumstances it is about the safest "beginner" smokeless to work with.

[jhrosier]

... If you DO compress TB, be advised it is fast, ala Bullseye and ya durn sure can skyrocket the pressures. ......

Trailboss should never be compressed !

I had about 800 .44 bullets cast up that were too soft/small and left tons of leading with 2400.
I loaded them in the .44 mag over a full charge of TB and they shot well, without any leading.
I think that the TB up to the base of the bullet was acting like a wad to stop blowby.

Jack

[76/444]

... If you DO compress TB, be advised it is fast, ala Bullseye and ya durn sure can skyrocket the pressures. ......

Trailboss should never be compressed !

I had about 800 .44 bullets cast up that were too soft/small and left tons of leading with 2400.
I loaded them in the .44 mag over a full charge of TB and they shot well, without any leading.
I think that the TB up to the base of the bullet was acting like a wad to stop blowby.

Jack

I have always wondered if you could do the same in a 444? Anybody do any full case/to just bellow the bottom of a 300 gr, slug? I know the link says OK,.... just wondering if anyone has done it yet !

What do ya think Hobie? Possible?

[Leverluver]

First off 76, if we got off on the wrong foot about TB, I wish to apologize. Second, I have not done anything with the 444 but I did do some pressure tests with the 45-70 with several weight bullets including 500 grain. I am still adamant that those that are loading TB for "black powder pressure only" rifles are treading in a dangerous zone. Even some of the (70%) start loads well exceed black powder pressures (~24KSI) by a considerable margin. Having said that, IF they are loaded in strong modern rifles, I don't think that you can hurt the rifle if the rules are followed to the letter about no compression what-so-ever. With all the bullet weights I used, I did not exceed 33KSI with any 100% load.

[76/444]

First off 76, if we got off on the wrong foot about TB, I wish to apologize. Second, I have not done anything with the 444 but I did do some pressure tests with the 45-70 with several weight bullets including 500 grain. I am still adamant that those that are loading TB for "black powder pressure only" rifles are treading in a dangerous zone. Even some of the (70%) start loads well exceed black powder pressures (~24KSI) by a considerable margin. Having said that, IF they are loaded in strong modern rifles, I don't think that you can hurt the rifle if the rules are followed to the letter about no compression what-so-ever. With all the bullet weights I used, I did not exceed 33KSI with any 100% load.

Thank you sir. I have a 1976 Marlin 444 in excellent condition,... so I am not all that worried about pressures since, I believe Marlin 444 are rated at 44,000 cup.

[76/444]

... If you DO compress TB, be advised it is fast, ala Bullseye and ya durn sure can skyrocket the pressures. ......

Trailboss should never be compressed !

I had about 800 .44 bullets cast up that were too soft/small and left tons of leading with 2400.
I loaded them in the .44 mag over a full charge of TB and they shot well, without any leading.
I think that the TB up to the base of the bullet was acting like a wad to stop blowby.

Jack

Not that I disagree,... because I really don't know of what you have mentioned. But, I remember when I had first asked about Trail Boss loadings,.... someone posted a pressure spike/cure chart for a few powders along with TB. The TB had the equivalent early spike comparable to BP pressure readings,.... and I believe, would help in "bumping" up those soft castings. Just an assumption,.... since I have not done it. Maybe a little of both!

[L_Kilkenny]

2 questions: would these reduced velocity loads be adequate for hunting? Say 100-125yds with .30-06 or 7-08?

Why are the guys in the surplus rifle link setting their sight ladders to 600yds for 50yd shooting? Is there a correlation between the two ranges?

OK, so that's more than two questions...

At 1400fps on down I think you may be pushing it for deer sized game but (forgive my lack of knowlege on this one) isn't a .32-20 in about that same ballpark? .32-20 has taken it's fair share of deer. I'd forget about using spire pointed jacketed bullets intended for the calibers you mentioned though. IMO, they'll fail to expand and act like FMJ's at slow speed. While I'm not a cast lead shooter I'd stick with those or maybe .30-30 jacketed bullets. The flatter the nose the better for any bullets in this case.

LK

[otteray]

Not that I disagree,... because I really don't know of what you have mentioned. But, I remember when I had first asked about Trail Boss loadings,.... someone posted a pressure spike/cure chart for a few powders along with TB. The TB had the equivalent early spike comparable to BP pressure readings,.... and I believe, would help in "bumping" up those soft castings. Just an assumption,.... since I have not done it. Maybe a little of both!

I think it was KirkD that had those pressure spike studies. Or maybe w30wcf (John Kort)

[cowboykell]

Leverluver - how did you accomplish your pressure tests with the 45-70?

[Leverluver]

Same way the guy right above your post did. My test rifle has been calibrated against every factory ammo as well as testing well over a thousand test firings with other loads from 'manuals".

[cowboykell]

What is your test rifle? A rifle with a strain gauge attached?

[Leverluver]

Yes, a specially built bolt action (two different ones) with interchangable (still needs wrench and vice) barrels. Probably near twenty different calibers.

[76/444]

Not that I disagree,... because I really don't know of what you have mentioned. But, I remember when I had first asked about Trail Boss loadings,.... someone posted a pressure spike/cure chart for a few powders along with TB. The TB had the equivalent early spike comparable to BP pressure readings,.... and I believe, would help in "bumping" up those soft castings. Just an assumption,.... since I have not done it. Maybe a little of both!

I think it was KirkD that had those pressure spike studies. Or maybe w30wcf (John Kort)

Yup,... that's the one.

[awp101]

2 questions: would these reduced velocity loads be adequate for hunting? Say 100-125yds with .30-06 or 7-08?

Why are the guys in the surplus rifle link setting their sight ladders to 600yds for 50yd shooting? Is there a correlation between the two ranges?

OK, so that's more than two questions...

At 1400fps on down I think you may be pushing it for deer sized game but (forgive my lack of knowlege on this one) isn't a .32-20 in about that same ballpark? .32-20 has taken it's fair share of deer. I'd forget about using spire pointed jacketed bullets intended for the calibers you mentioned though. IMO, they'll fail to expand and act like FMJ's at slow speed. While I'm not a cast lead shooter I'd stick with those or maybe .30-30 jacketed bullets. The flatter the nose the better for any bullets in this case.

LK

Thanks! I'll keep that in mind and maybe work up loads that duplicate factory sight settings for practice.