its not a lever but

[a357lever]

i picked up a dpms 308 16" (great deal) any companies make loads for the short barrel in this gun?
i have read blogs that guys load with faster powder and get 2700 fps+ 150gr i was just wondering i know they make short bbl pistolammo, with the explostion of these short bbl cqb rifles i woud think a smart ammo maker would capitolize on this but they are allways years behind any trend. its a hoot to shoot but a lot of blast and noise. I am guessing this would be about max 200 yards for deer size game. Its getting about 2560fps 150 gr psp rem.

[Terry Murbach]

YOU CANNOT LOAD WITH ANY FASTER POWDERS TO MAKE THE VELOCITIES YOU WANT WITHOUT EXCEEDING PRESSURE LIMITS !!!
THE POWDERS THAT WORK THE BEST IN A 24" BARREL WORK THE BEST IN A STUBBY 16" BARRELL. LOTSA MUZZLE BLAST, LOW VELOCITIES, AND LOWERED PERFORMANCE IS WHAT YOU GET FOR CHOSING A CIRCUMSIZED BARREL. THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT !!! THERE ARE NO BALLISTIC MIRACLES. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR VELOCITY AND THERE IS NO --NO!!!!--SUBSTITUTE FOR BARREL LENGTH TO GET IT.
FOR THE LIFE OF ME I DO NOT SEE WHAT ALL OF YOU BOYS SEE IN THOSE DINKYAZZED STUBBY BARRELS.

[crs]

Come on, TERRY, tell us how you really feel!

[J Miller]

YOU CANNOT LOAD WITH ANY FASTER POWDERS TO MAKE THE VELOCITIES YOU WANT WITHOUT EXCEEDING PRESSURE LIMITS !!!
THE POWDERS THAT WORK THE BEST IN A 24" BARREL WORK THE BEST IN A STUBBY 16" BARRELL. LOTSA MUZZLE BLAST, LOW VELOCITIES, AND LOWERED PERFORMANCE IS WHAT YOU GET FOR CHOSING A CIRCUMSIZED BARREL. THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT !!! THERE ARE NO BALLISTIC MIRACLES. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR VELOCITY AND THERE IS NO --NO!!!!--SUBSTITUTE FOR BARREL LENGTH TO GET IT.
FOR THE LIFE OF ME I DO NOT SEE WHAT ALL OF YOU BOYS SEE IN THOSE DINKYAZZED STUBBY BARRELS.

Terry, just like with the Trapper sized lever guns there is a handiness quality that's occasionally useful. Myself I think the handiness of a Trapper is over rated. Personally I'd rather have a carbine length barrel at the minimum on anything serious.

Joe

[76/444]

I went from 24" to 16.5" and got better accuracy with an old Mauser ought6 import. I believe it is due to a stiffer/shorter barrel. As is testified to in the last two paragraphs in the quote below. I think it has been pretty much proven over the decades that barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy and only to do with velocity. But what many don't seem to understand is, in some calibers, a minimum of velocity is lost.

The claim that longer barrels = better accuracy, is just old school thinking, imo.

here is one of the better articles I have read on this........

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

---------------------------------------------------


Article photos by Stan Nielsen Copyright © 2000
Eugene Nielsen

BARREL LENGTH AND THE PRECISION RIFLE
Why shorter barrels may often be better
by
Eugene Nielsen

There’s a growing trend to shorter barrels on tactical precision rifles. In years past, a 24- to 26-inch barrel was practically a given. Accepted wisdom was that it was necessary to sacrifice a little maneuverability to gain a more complete powder burn and significantly reduced flash signature. Today, it’s not uncommon to rifles with significlly shorter barrrels.

Attitudes are are changing. The desire for more manueverable rifles for the urban setting has led a growing number of manufacturer's to come out with shorter-barreled precision rifles. This brings up an obvious question -- how short is too short? What sacrifices, if any, are made by going to a shorter barrel?

To answer these questions, we must first start by taking a look at the subject of internal ballistics. Internal ballistics is a very complex subject. There are many factors which affect the internal performance of a given cartridge and bullet. Factors affecting internal performance include the powder chamber capacity; load density; amount and burning characteristics of the propellant powder; temperature of the propellant prior to ignition; uniformity and speed of ignition; diameter, weight and bearing length of the bullet; and the length of the barrel and its interior dimensions.

Longer barrels give the powder more time to work on propelling the bullet. For this reason longer barrels generally provide higher velocities, everything else being equal. However, the gas pressure behind the bullet diminishes as the bullet moves down the bore. Given a long enough barrel, there will eventually be a point in which the bore friction and air pressure in front of the bullet will equal the gas pressure behind it. At this point, the velocity of the bullet will start to decrease.


Shorter barrels are capable of surprising long-range accurancy. San Fernando (California) PD Special Response Team long rifle marksman Chris Colelli, shown here, fired a three-shot group at 700 yards that measured just under two inches center-to-center. Colleli also fired a sub-1/4- inch group at 200 yards. The target is now framed and hanging in his lieutenant's office.

There isn't any clear-cut answer as to how much velocity will be lost per inch of barrel length reduction. The amount of loss is closely tied to the expansion ratio. As previously noted, the type and amount of powder, as well as the weight and bearing length of the bullet, also play a major part. Rifles with high expansion ratios (smaller calibers) tend to lose less velocity than rifles with low expansion ratios (larger calibers).

Tactical Operations about in the April 2000 issue of S.W.A.T., typifies the trend to rifles with shorter barrels. Tac Ops considers a barrel of length of 18 to 20 inches to be optimal for the urban environment, with 18 inches the preferred length.

During the development of the Tango 51, Tac Ops took a standard 26-inch barrel and cut it down to 18 inches in one-inch increments. Between 10 to 20 rounds were fired at each invrement. They found that a 20-inch barrel provides for a complete propellant burn and no velocity loss when using Federal Match 168-grain BTHP, a cartridge that has become something of a law enforcement standard. Going to an 18-inch barrel only resulted in a loss of 32 feet per second (fps).

Shorter barreled rifles are more versatile, being equally suitable for both urban and rural operations. According to Tac Ops, there isn't any need to go to the 26-inch barrel unless you want to go to a heavier bullet or push the round to higher velocity using more powder or use a slower burning powder. The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department's Special Enforcement Bureau (SEB) performed tests similar to those conducted by Tac Ops and came to similar conclusions.

Tommy Lambrecht, SEB armorer and Special Weapons Team long rifle expert, recently chronographed the Federal Match 168-gr. BTHP rounds. Lambrecht said that the muzzle velocity was averaging around 2,660 to 2,670 feet per second (fps) from the 20-inch-barreled Tango 51 that Tac Ops delivered to him.

The accuracy of the Tango 51 isn't hampered by the shorter barrel. While at the range with the Tango 51 we were consistently getting sub-1/4 MOA accuracy at longer ranges? Well, the shorter barrel doesn't hamper longer range accuracy either.

As I mentioned in my article on the Tango 51, San Fernando (CA) PD Special Response Team long rifle marksman Chris Colelli once fired a 3-shot sub-1/4-inch group at the article appeared, Colelli fired a 3-shot group from the rifle at 700 yards that measured just under 2 inches center to center. The group, which was witnessed by several credible spotters, was shot off of a bipod with one small sandbag.

Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department Special Enforcement Bureau (SEB) Special Weapons Team long rifle experts Fred Keelin (left) with Tac Ops Alpha 66

Colelli is a superb marksman, one of the best that I've seen, but he would be the first to admit that an element of luck played a role in this feat. Groups like these certainly aren't typical of what could be realistically expected under actual operational conditions. Still, they show that the rifle is capable of phenomenal accuracy provided that the operator does his or her part.

Although the 20-inch barrel remains very popular with agencies purchasing the Tango 51, many agencies prefer an 18-inch barrel for its added maneuverability. With the 18-inch barrel, you're still shooting around 2,630 fps with Federal Match. The target certainly isn't going to know if he's being hit with a bullet that leaves the muzzle at 2,660 fps or 2,630 fps. The terminal ballistics are identical.

Going to an 18-inch barrel doesn't adversely effect the accuracy of the rifle. Tac Ops has achieved incredible accuracy with the shorter barrels. The 18-inch barreled Tango 51 rifles will still shoot sub-1/4 MOA. The performance is just as good with the 18-inch barrel as it is with the 20-inch barrel out to a distance of 600 yards. After initially going with the 20-inch barrel for their Tango 51s, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department has decided to go with the 18-inch barrel and Tac Ops 30 suppressor on all new Tango 51s that they purchase.

Shorter barrels are actually often more accurate than their longer counterparts. A rifle barrel is a cantilevered beam and as such they sag. More sag results in more whip and vibration as the bullet travels down the bore. Barrel sag induces longitudinal stress that can cause stringing of shots. Using a shorter, heavier barrel minimizes reduces stress and accuracy-robbing barrel vibration. A shorter barrel is stiffer and vibrates at a less.

Barrel length and contour determines the relative "stiffness" of a barrel, i.e., how much a barrel will tend to vibrate. Shorter barrels generally have oscillations of smaller amplitude. than longer barrels. Thicker barrels generally have fewer vibration nodes than slimmer barrels. The ringing frequency of a thicker barrel is higher and the oscillations are of a smaller amplitude and of a shorter duration. This equates to less barrel motion at the muzzle. The use of a shorter barrel also allows the use of a heavier contour without making the rifle unwieldy.

[76/444]

i picked up a dpms 308 16" (great deal) any companies make loads for the short barrel in this gun?
i have read blogs that guys load with faster powder and get 2700 fps+ 150gr i was just wondering i know they make short bbl pistolammo, with the explostion of these short bbl cqb rifles i woud think a smart ammo maker would capitolize on this but they are allways years behind any trend. its a hoot to shoot but a lot of blast and noise. I am guessing this would be about max 200 yards for deer size game. Its getting about 2560fps 150 gr psp rem.

P.S.......

I shoot my regular factory ammo with no increase in trajectory drop with a 16.5" barrel. But, I only shoot at distances of 250yds and less,... for now. And, that would be 220gr. Rem. RN and 175gr. HSM matchking hpbt's.

I have a bunch of 150gr., 165gr. and 180 gr. factory ammo i let other guys use to shoot my weapon and they find no significant difference in trajectory .

[Nath]

My Rem SPS Tactical has a 20" tube, it don't bother me none, I miss just as good with it any other gun I owned

Nath.

[76/444]

My Rem SPS Tactical has a 20" tube, it don't bother me none, I miss just as good with it any other gun I owned

Nath.

[Terry Murbach]

My Rem SPS Tactical has a 20" tube, it don't bother me none, I miss just as good with it any other gun I owned

Nath.

HOW WELL I KNOW THAT FEELING!!

[L_Kilkenny]

YOU CANNOT LOAD WITH ANY FASTER POWDERS TO MAKE THE VELOCITIES YOU WANT WITHOUT EXCEEDING PRESSURE LIMITS !!!
THE POWDERS THAT WORK THE BEST IN A 24" BARREL WORK THE BEST IN A STUBBY 16" BARRELL. LOTSA MUZZLE BLAST, LOW VELOCITIES, AND LOWERED PERFORMANCE IS WHAT YOU GET FOR CHOSING A CIRCUMSIZED BARREL. THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT !!! THERE ARE NO BALLISTIC MIRACLES. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR VELOCITY AND THERE IS NO --NO!!!!--SUBSTITUTE FOR BARREL LENGTH TO GET IT.
FOR THE LIFE OF ME I DO NOT SEE WHAT ALL OF YOU BOYS SEE IN THOSE DINKYAZZED STUBBY BARRELS.

Terry, correct me if I'm wrong but you should be able to limit you loss with faster powder. Although you can't eliminate it. Take a .308 150gr load using H4895. Hodgdon list min load will yield 2742fps, max = 2870fps. Now take the .308 load using Varget they list min @ 2788fps and max @ 2937fps. H4895 is faster than Varget and the velocity loss in a 16" tube should be substantially less.

Now I've also toyed with BlueDot loads in rifles and I'm betting the velocity difference between a 16" and 20" tube is about nill.

LK

[Terry Murbach]

YOU CANNOT LOAD WITH ANY FASTER POWDERS TO MAKE THE VELOCITIES YOU WANT WITHOUT EXCEEDING PRESSURE LIMITS !!!
THE POWDERS THAT WORK THE BEST IN A 24" BARREL WORK THE BEST IN A STUBBY 16" BARRELL. LOTSA MUZZLE BLAST, LOW VELOCITIES, AND LOWERED PERFORMANCE IS WHAT YOU GET FOR CHOSING A CIRCUMSIZED BARREL. THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT !!! THERE ARE NO BALLISTIC MIRACLES. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR VELOCITY AND THERE IS NO --NO!!!!--SUBSTITUTE FOR BARREL LENGTH TO GET IT.
FOR THE LIFE OF ME I DO NOT SEE WHAT ALL OF YOU BOYS SEE IN THOSE DINKYAZZED STUBBY BARRELS.

Terry, correct me if I'm wrong but you should be able to limit you loss with faster powder. Although you can't eliminate it. Take a .308 150gr load using H4895. Hodgdon list min load will yield 2742fps, max = 2870fps. Now take the .308 load using Varget they list min @ 2788fps and max @ 2937fps. H4895 is faster than Varget and the velocity loss in a 16" tube should be substantially less.

Now I've also toyed with BlueDot loads in rifles and I'm betting the velocity difference between a 16" and 20" tube is about nill.

LK

YOU HAVE A POINT, BUT ONLY TO A RATHER MINOR POINT. THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE CAN BE--BUT NOT ALWAYS-- WHETHER YOU HAVE A"SLOW" OR A "FAST" BARREL. YOU CAN PRETTY WELL BET THE RANCH THOUGH THAT THE FASTEST LOADS IN A 24" BARREL WILL BE THE FASTEST IN A 20' OR A 16" BARREL.
A GOOD EXAMPLE TO STUDY IS THE U.S. ARMY'S M16 WHEN IT WAS FULL SIZED. IT'S 55gr BULLET AT 3250FPS HAD A REPUTATION AS A KILLER, BIG MEN LIKE US, OR LITTLE MEN LIKE THE VC, IT COULD KNOCK 'EM ALL ON THEIR DONKEY WITH ANYTHING RESEMBLING A DECENT HIT.
NOW THE ARMY USES A SHORT BARRELED CARBINE AND IT HAS LOST SO MUCH VELOCITY, AND THEREFORE POWER ,IT'LL HARDLY KILL A darned THING WITHOUT HEADSHOTS. AS A MATTER OF FACT IT IS TRULY A POPGUN AND ALL THE BULLET WEIGHT CHANGES, ALL THE BULLET SHAPE CHANGES ETC ETC CANNOT PULL THIS MISERABLE TURD OUTTA THE FIRE.
AND OF COURSE THERE IS THE WONDERFUL ATTRIBUTE OF A FULL SIZED 22" TO 24" BARREL OF GETTING ALL OF THAT DAMNDABLE NOISE OUT OF OUR FACES.

[NonPCnraRN]

I suppose if you were going room to room clearing out (killing) badguys the shorter barrel would be an advantage. To the average trooper a full sized rifle woudl be more advantageous. To make it easier to get in and out of a vehicle the collapsable stock would help. Now I will contradict what I just said that there is something about a 16" SOCOM compared to an MIA that makes me want to have one. Ironically, here in CA we can get a M1A based rifle but not the EBR version (AR-10). We also have to have a muzzle brake that looks like a flash hider regardless of barrel length. More nonsense.

[a357lever]

OK I GET THE POINT I WAS JUST ASKING SORRY

[a357lever]

i ran across this it seems well, take a look.....

http://www.realguns.com/archives/181.htm