Input on Reloading Investment

[Haycock]

Hey All,

Been doing a little assisting with my neighbor's reloading, learning about it, etc., and I'm interested in input on the most inexpensive progressive press capable of handling rifle cartridges. My neighbor has a whole Dillon setup with the Square Deal "B" since he only reloads .38, but I want to be able to reload 8x57 Mauser and .30-30 as well as handgun cartridges... and I don't want to have to drop $1,000 for the whole rig.

Should I look at a single-stage setup, or is there a rifle-cartridge capable press that's both less expensive than the Dillon and offers real quality?


Haycock

[AJMD429]

I'm not an expert by any means, but over 35 years I've used everything from the little Lee 'mallet' kit to a Dillon RL550B progressive, and a Rockchucker single stage and Lee Classic 4-die turret, plus a Lyman 310 and a Lee 'hand' press. They all work.

Basically, IMHO you pay the BIG bucks for three things - speed, precision, and status. The prestige of the logo on the box isn't important to me, so the premium for me is when I want speed or precision.

For me, the most 'precise' loads I ever made were on the no-longer-made Lee "Precision Micrometer" kit I got for $28 and used with powder dippers costing another $8, so unless you need volume AND precision, you still don't need to spend much. By 'precision' here I mean seeking sub-0.5" groups (and getting them consistently) at 100 yards; ANY of the presses and setups will get you under 2 MOA with a gun/cartridge capable of that, if that is your goal.

As far as speed, I think the little Lee Classic Turret press is plenty fast, and die holders are cheap (unlike the Dillon) so you can leave everything adjusted and switch back and forth to other cartridges. I also like their "disk" powder measure, but use the 'double disk' setup for more load flexibility.

Die-wise, I have been satisfied with Lee, but the 'factory crimp' die is really only different (and maybe or maybe not 'better') for bottleneck/'rifle' cartridges; for pistol it is just a roll-crimp done by a 'collet' die. I'm still trying to figure out if I like the FCD for .44 Mag (gonna try a 'real' FCD this weekend by using a .44-40 die to crimp some loads).

The nice thing about the 'turret' presses is that you don't get everything out of whack as much if you mess up one round, because only ONE round is on the press at a time, vs. a whole 'chain' of them to re-set if you screw something up. Less chance for mistakes. Still plenty fast for me - pull the handle down four times and you have a loaded round.

You may later want specific tools like a primer seating tool that is separate, and again with a 'turret' press it is easier to use the press for everything BUT one step, whereas on a progressive it would really slow you down.

Basically, they all do the same job - colors differ...

[Haycock]

Thanks for reply, Doc!

Okay, so... precision is largely the objective to me, along with gaining technical knowledge and saving money while shooting more... speed isn't all that important to me and prestige isn't at all.

If I understand you correctly, the Lee Classic Turret press is a single-round, multi-stage press that handles all operations EXCEPT seating (and removing???) the primer...

Do I have that right? If so, what do you use for removing & seating primers? I assume you execute that step prior to loading power, bullet, etc.


Haycock

[fordwannabe]

I think you misinterpreted something Doc said. The Lee turret press does decap using your standard full length resizing die and it will seat primers, but many of us like to seat primers by hand. It gives us a better "feel" for how the primer seats. I have used a bunch of presses over the last 30 years and the lee is a good unit, you can buy extra tool heads for it so once you have a die set up for your load you can just remove the whole setup and using another tool head set up for another caliber. It works as well as most better than some but it is a good start you will find what works for you as you grow in the hobby. One other thing though you said it will say you money.....uhhh.....ummm.I think it just allows me to shoot more I'm pretty sure I have spent a small fortune on reloading stuff( I have 4 press's set up right now for different stuff). One of the new things to me is the lee trimmers that go in you hand drill WoW these are great and very inexpensive compared to a lyman power trimmer. If you hang out here you will learn a lot from these guys(and they are a good group of guys too!). Tom

[Wind]

Hey there Haycock - One thing about this forum is that there is plenty of free advice, with a wide variety of opinions. Having started on old Belding & Mull inline equipment, Lee mallet stuff, multiple RCBS (Jr.'s and Rockchuckers) and Dillon's, I'd say go with the Dillon 550B. I have never had a problem with the equipment and they stand behind it. If you avoid the extra expense of the fancy tool accessory trays, mounts and special handles, I would think you could be into one for well under $500. Here is the free advice part. I've never seen the need for speed in an activity that if you screw up you could blow a hand or face off. The progressives make it less tedious and reduce the multiple motions of reloading. With a progressive press I highly recommend RCBS's lock-out die (#87540) which will shut the press down if you have too much or too little powder in pistol caliber cases. Getting an extra powder measure and setting it up with the large powder bushing makes for simpler large to small cartridge changes. And if you look at the acquisition of new dies and related tool holders down the road as inevitable, and an investment, the initial plunge won't be so painful. Hope this helps (alittle). Best regards. Wind

[alnitak]

Okay, so... precision is largely the objective to me, along with gaining technical knowledge and saving money while shooting more...

How much more shooting? I use a handpress for most of my reloading, but also have a single-stage. Both meet my relatively low volume needs well enough. I think the determining factor for you is going to be the amount you shoot (or want to shoot). In order, from low volume to high, you're looking at handpress, single stage press, turret press, and finally, progressive press. Not that you can't turn out a lot of ammo with a single stage press -- many of us do -- but it's faster and easier on a turret or progressive. I also understand that many bench shooters going for accuracy still use a single-stage press (or even a handpress).

If it were me (and I am not an expert with 40 years experience unlike many on this forum), I'd start with a single-stage press, a Lee Autoprime and a set of Lee dies (including the FCD; use the carbide dies for the handgun calibers -- no lube required). Its cheap, gets you in touch with each stage of reloading and is something you will always use, even if you move to a turret or progressive press in the future. Many of us have multiple presses. There will always be a function you can use the single-stage for, e.g., depriming and sizing only, turning out low-volume for that odd cartridge, etc.

I'd also check out ebay and other gun site classifieds for used equipment, particularly for the "lots". You can buy a complete setup, with all the tools needed, often for 1/2 the price of new. I picked up a single-stage press for $15 or $20. The Lee Autoprime will run you ~$15 with the case holder set, and the four-die sets can be found for $30 or less. Add a scale (I use a digital one that I got for $25, but many prefer a balance beam one), and you are good to go for around $100. Depending upon the cartridge/caliber, you may need other tools, such as a case trimmer, burr remover, caliper, etc. I also use the hand Lee tools -- there are less than $5 each and serve well enough.

So, bottom line, I'd say start with the basics, with low investment. Learn more about the process and your needs, and then move up to a more expensive/robust set-up when your volume, knowledge and skills warrant it.

[Hobie]

The Lee single stage will do. You do need a scale, a good scale, and a way to trim cases (again the Lee trimmers will do for consistency).

[adirondakjack]

I'm not an expert by any means, but over 35 years I've used everything from the little Lee 'mallet' kit to a Dillon RL550B progressive, and a Rockchucker single stage and Lee Classic 4-die turret, plus a Lyman 310 and a Lee 'hand' press. They all work.

Basically, IMHO you pay the BIG bucks for three things - speed, precision, and status. The prestige of the logo on the box isn't important to me, so the premium for me is when I want speed or precision.

For me, the most 'precise' loads I ever made were on the no-longer-made Lee "Precision Micrometer" kit I got for $28 and used with powder dippers costing another $8, so unless you need volume AND precision, you still don't need to spend much. By 'precision' here I mean seeking sub-0.5" groups (and getting them consistently) at 100 yards; ANY of the presses and setups will get you under 2 MOA with a gun/cartridge capable of that, if that is your goal.

As far as speed, I think the little Lee Classic Turret press is plenty fast, and die holders are cheap (unlike the Dillon) so you can leave everything adjusted and switch back and forth to other cartridges. I also like their "disk" powder measure, but use the 'double disk' setup for more load flexibility.

Die-wise, I have been satisfied with Lee, but the 'factory crimp' die is really only different (and maybe or maybe not 'better') for bottleneck/'rifle' cartridges; for pistol it is just a roll-crimp done by a 'collet' die. I'm still trying to figure out if I like the FCD for .44 Mag (gonna try a 'real' FCD this weekend by using a .44-40 die to crimp some loads).

The nice thing about the 'turret' presses is that you don't get everything out of whack as much if you mess up one round, because only ONE round is on the press at a time, vs. a whole 'chain' of them to re-set if you screw something up. Less chance for mistakes. Still plenty fast for me - pull the handle down four times and you have a loaded round.

You may later want specific tools like a primer seating tool that is separate, and again with a 'turret' press it is easier to use the press for everything BUT one step, whereas on a progressive it would really slow you down.

Basically, they all do the same job - colors differ...

I just helped a new reloader walk through the process and order "gear". A Lee Turret press, two turrets, two sets of dies, calipers, brass tumbler, lee auto prime and shell holders, every bit she will need for two calibers came to about $400, starting from nothing.

You simply won't shoot enough 30-30 or 8MM to justify a progressive, and the little Lee Turret, run batch style will make VERY good ammo.

OTOH I have a grand in my Dillon 650 to do two calibers, not counting extras like calipers, tumbler, scale, etc, etc, etc, and I still use my 30 year old Lee Turret to make small batches, rifle ammo, etc. It's a good method, especially if you use an auto prime to do priming off the press.

[Don McDowell]

Thanks for reply, Doc!

Okay, so... precision is largely the objective to me, along with gaining technical knowledge and saving money while shooting more... speed isn't all that important to me and prestige isn't at all.

Haycock

I would urge you to get ahold of one of the Lee anniversary/classic kits. It contains everything a reloader will need accept for the dies.
I personally don't care for the Lee dies as quality is a bit to spotty to suit, so I stick with Hornady,RCBS,Lyman ,Redding and CH4D.
Get ahold of the Lyman 49th Reloading Handbook as well, excellent reference for alot of cartridges.
You won't save any money reloading as you'll end up shooting more, but you can fine tune loads to each rifle/handgun you have.

[Haycock]

First off, thanks to all for the input! Great info!

Sounds from all the responses like a turret press probably fits the bill... " A Lee Turret press, two turrets, two sets of dies, calipers, brass tumbler, lee auto prime and shell holders, every bit she will need for two calibers came to about $400, starting from nothing." sounds about right to me... appreciate that, adirondackjack.

Don't think I want to hand-seat primers just yet, though I may get there eventually, so nothing extra needed there (thanks to fordwannabe for pointing out my misinterpretation on that point).

I'm gonna hunt around for used gear first, then either try my hand at the whole process with an intro-level setup or maybe just suck it up and go with the turret rig.

Appreciate all the insights, gents.... I freakin' love this site.... don't post much, but I read it every day... just great...


Haycock

[Terry Murbach]

TAKE THIS TO THE BANK : "MOST INEXPENSIVE" AND "REAL QUALITY" ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE AND CAN NEVER EVER NEVER BE RECONCILED.
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR AS IT CANNOT BE ANY OTHER WAY. YOU SHOULD FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU NEED TO DO THE JOB CORRECTLY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AND PAY THE TAB, NO MATTER WHAT IT IS, BECAUSE YOU WILL ONLY HAFTA DO IT ONCE.
MY LOADING EQUIPMENT HAS BEEN IN CONTINUOUS USAGE SINCE 1960 AND HAS NEVER GIVEN ME A MOMENTS PROBLEM. EVERYTHING THING BOUGHT SINCE---THE C-H 333 PRESS, THE RCBS A2 PRESS, THE TWO RCBS AMMOMASTERS ETC--- HAS BEEN IN CONTINUOUS USAGE WITH NEVER A PROBLEM. THE COST WAS NOT CHEAP BUT AMORTIZED OVER THE PAST YEARS MAKES IT THE CHEAPEST WAY TO GO BAR NONE. HELLES BELLES, I'VE LEFT MORE BEER SPILLED ON THE BAR THAN THE COST OF THAT GOOD STUFF ON MY LOADING BENCHES ON A PER YEAR BASIS.
AND BESIDES THAT, HANDLOADING YOUR OWN AMMUNITION IS INCH THICK FROSTING ON THE CAKE CALLED SHOOTING.

[O.S.O.K.]

IMHO, if you are planning on handloading for a long time to come - buy quality. I started with an RCBS Master Reloading kit - over 20 years ago and still use it. I have other presses too and more equipment, but this kit will do it all for what you want and will still be working for your kids to use if you pass it down to them...



Midway has em, along with many other catalog houses... http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?p ... ber=646599 If you look around you can find them on sale for $269 or less...

If you don't have the cash for that right now and want to get started, you may look at the Lee Anniversary kit - its $100 or less and also has everything you need. Its just not nearly as robust and includes a lot of plastic parts - but it does work and will trun-out quality ammo...

[gimdandy]

Haycock,
Every time this question comes up I have the right answer BUT its wrong for the person that is a beginner. Reason is if you get a 550B first then you could be going so fast you may learn to side step the learning curve on safety. With that in mind get a single stage press or lee's fine turret . Either one will accomplish the needed objective and either one is an investment that you won't be selling IF you ever up grade. It is a big plus to have a single stage on the bench for odds and ends even if you have the best progressive and if you don't it will reload for you for life , safely . GET A GOOD SCALE AND RELOADING MANUEL AND READ IT (not shouting just emphasis ) Never exceed maximum on a listed load and follow the book as a recipe , because it is. Of all the reloading manuals I have I think that "Modern Reloading Second Edition "is what I'd recommend and Lyman #49 .Tons of good information

[adirondakjack]

Haycock,
Every time this question comes up I have the right answer BUT its wrong for the person that is a beginner. Reason is if you get a 550B first then you could be going so fast you may learn to side step the learning curve on safety. With that in mind get a single stage press or lee's fine turret . Either one will accomplish the needed objective and either one is an investment that you won't be selling IF you ever up grade. It is a big plus to have a single stage on the bench for odds and ends even if you have the best progressive and if you don't it will reload for you for life , safely . GET A GOOD SCALE AND RELOADING MANUEL AND READ IT (not shouting just emphasis ) Never exceed maximum on a listed load and follow the book as a recipe , because it is. Of all the reloading manuals I have I think that "Modern Reloading Second Edition "is what I'd recommend and Lyman #49 .Tons of good information

Agreed. I use a Dillon 650 for production reloading, but it is NOT a begiiner's press. As I told the newbie I'm teaching "Run the Lee a year, then we'll talk progressive. Too much going on at once for a newbie."
SAFETY, SAFETY, SAFETY! Even then, I HIGHLY recommend a 650 over a 550, as auto-indexing and a powder alarm will save ya from the most common press-related mistakes.

[Modoc ED]

You can load a good amount of ammo with a single stage press. The RCBS Rockchucker kit as shown above is a good kit with quality equipment and might well be all you need along with some other pieces -- trimmer etc..

Take a look at this link. It is written for the LEE Loader but is very useful in that it shows what trimmers, etc. are necessary and it has an excellent discription for dipping powder.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_no ... tes.htm/51

If you do use the dipping method shown in the link, get a LARGE tuna can and use it. The cans are pressed -- not welded -- and powder will not stick in the crease in the bottom of the can.

[Warhawk]

I started many years ago with a Lyman T-Mag press. I gave that one to my brother and now have a newer T-Mag II press, plus a lot of other "stuff" I've accumulated over the years.

I don't shoot anywhere near as much as some, but the turret press gives me enough of a speed advantage over a single stage press that I don't feel the need to go to a progressive press, like a Dillon.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/pres ... K_Tmag.php

[adirondakjack]

The main advantage to a turret press over a single stage is with a turret, especially the Lee, for which turrets are cheap ($12 or so), you can set up dies once for a caliber and leave em. Swap out the whole deal in 30 seconds. Get a new caliber? A set of dies and a turret will be about $40.

[Ranch Dog]

I work with a group of 6,000 professionals and we tend to wander off into groups that enjoy certain hobbies, such as reloading. The reloading group is quite large and I was asked to put together a web page of Lee equipment for the person interested in spending around $300 to load rifle and pistol cartridges. Of the 1,000 of us, we favor Lee equipment so that is what this page features and it will give you some suggestions.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/Reloading/Getting_Started/

I have every Lee press offered but my preference based on my experience is the simple turret press. I have the Loadmaster, Lee's fully progressive press, but don't enjoy reloading with it. Once it is set up there is not much to the "art". If my dog wasn't three legged, I could teach her to pull the lever and poop out a cartridge. I enjoy reloading as a past time so I don't mind taking the time to enjoy the activity.

[Warhawk]

The main advantage to a turret press over a single stage is with a turret, especially the Lee, for which turrets are cheap ($12 or so), you can set up dies once for a caliber and leave em. Swap out the whole deal in 30 seconds. Get a new caliber? A set of dies and a turret will be about $40.

The main advantage I see to the turret press is that I can load one round of ammo without having to change the dies. This can be valuable for making a few test loads, or dummy rounds, etc.

[Haycock]

After looking over more information on all these devices I'm pretty convinced that a turret press is the way to go... learn all the steps individually and well, have the ability to swap turrets between loads, the pricing is more moderate than a progressive and once mastered provides more throughput than a single-stage.

The Lee and the Lyman both look like good options.... but I'm curious... why do so many people dislike the Lee dies???


Haycock

[Modoc ED]

but I'm curious... why do so many people dislike the Lee dies???Haycock

You'll never get a satisfactory answer to that question. It's like anything else. People have their preferences. Some people are gonna flat out say that LEE sucks while others will say LEE is the best thing since sliced bread. Many of us have a mixture of LEE and other products. I myself have LEE and RCBS dies along with a mixture of various brands of scales, etc.. Then there is the snobbery to contend with along with small mindedness and unsubstantiated arguments.

[El Chivo]

I also recommend the Lee Turret for what you described. A friend of mine with tons of experience uses a Dillon and not too long ago fired off a double charge at the range with all of us there. Good thing it was out of a Contender, it froze but didn't blow up and kill anybody. You get going with a progressive press and stop paying attention, things happen and you might not see it. One thing I heard of is two bullets sticking together and getting seated in one cartridge, that is an instant explosion and no way to detect it.

The Lee Classic Turret Press comes with a primer seating gizmo if you want to use it, and you can disengage the automatic advance if you want to use it like a single stage. I do it that way, rather than loading one round at a time. This lets me visually check all 50 or so rounds in a batch before seating the bullets to make sure there are no double charges or empty cases. After doing it both ways I think that's safer.

If I want to do just one round, all I have to do is reach up and advance the die turret by hand. Very easy.

And it costs less than most single stage presses. It's more than enough for me.

My big splurge for reloading were these great Sinclair International wood loading blocks - extra deep so the cases won't tip over no matter what.

[AJMD429]

You can browse Lee products at leeprecision.com and prices on them are best at MidwayUSA.com. New may be better than 'used' as in easier to get exactly what you want, know it works, etc.

[Don McDowell]

Let me say that if Lee gets the deminsions on their size die right, there's not a smoother resizing die to be had. Altho many times the depriming rod is hardened way past the point that the collet will grip and hold it in place.
The thru the powder case expanders have a very nasty tendancy to fold a small chip of the case mouth in, for no apparent reason, is something that Lee has not shown any inclination to correct (at least thats been my experience). Not necessarily a bad thing unless its doing that to 1$ each cases.....
The seating dies are also a stuff shoot many of their dies will not apply a roll crimp. I have one seating die that the threads on the cap that holds the seating stem in place are so sloppy that you can actually see the thing raise up and down when seating the bullet. Just try and load match quality ammo with a die that won't put 2 bullets in a row to the same depth.
This gets us around to the lock ring, the rubber Oring that is supposed to keep the dies in adjustment, doesn't always get er done.
The price they get for these dies nowdays isn't enough cheaper to put up with this sort of nonsense.

[J Miller]

I totally agree with Terry. Buy the best the first time and you'll never regret it.

As for presses that are quick to change dies on, check out the Forster Co-Ax press. Beautiful press. Built like a tank. I learned to load on one 35+ years ago when they were made by Bonanza, then bought RCBS presses. About three years ago I found two older Bonanza Co-Ax presses and bought 'em both. Sent my RCBS presses in for over haul and set up the Co-Ax press.
RCBS presses came back and now reside in their shipping boxes. Maybe someday I'll set them back up but the Co-Ax is my favorite press of all time. I highly recommend it for simplicity and durability, especially for the beginner.

And another thing, a beginner has no business starting on a progressive press. That's just a KABOOM waiting to happen.

Joe

[adirondakjack]

After looking over more information on all these devices I'm pretty convinced that a turret press is the way to go... learn all the steps individually and well, have the ability to swap turrets between loads, the pricing is more moderate than a progressive and once mastered provides more throughput than a single-stage.

The Lee and the Lyman both look like good options.... but I'm curious... why do so many people dislike the Lee dies???


Haycock

Like any maker, lee will have the occassional bad die. I've used dozens of LEE die sets and never yet had a bad one. One post mentions getting the decapper tight enough. Yes ya gotta use two wrenches and crunch down like ya mean it, but once ya do, the Lee decapper is virtually impossible to break (unlike other makers), as it is extremely tough, about like a needle bearing. I asked a company making MILLIONS of rounds of ammo what dies they use. "Lee, they last as long as any, and cost half as much as most".


I do like Hornady handgun "New Dimension" dies. That little floating skirt on the seat/crimp is a neat idea UNTIL YA BREAK IT (I did).

[fordwannabe]

Haycock, you see what I mean about you will learn what works for you as you progress with the hobby? If you ask 10 reloaders a question you'll probably get at least 11 answers to it! Just be safe learn to walk before you run, this stuff is dangerous so be careful but have fun and if in doubt STOP and ask somebody(like us) before you do something that we'll all regret. I like having new members here and don't want to have to have a thread about memberX who had a reloading accident. Tom

[Don McDowell]

[quote="adirondakjack. . One post mentions getting the decapper tight enough.

.[/quote]

Yup and when you finally set down with the two wrenches and the collet nut strips the corners, and it still won't hold a bit of 6013 applied with about 110amps will keep it there nicely For the last 15 years anyway.

[Modoc ED]

I'm sure someone has said this but I don't recall seeing it so I'll say it --

Get a good reloading manual. There are many of them out. I like the Lyman #48 and the newer Lyman #49 along with the LEE reloading manual but I also have them from Nosler, Hornady, Speer, and others. Also, there is a manual out called I think "The ABCs of Reloading".

[adirondakjack]

For the handgunner, the Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook is a good one to have. For $15 it has a lot of info.

[Modoc ED]

To me, the Hodgdon Reloading Manual (magazine actually) is very important as it covers Hodgdon, IMR, and Winchester powders.

[Charles]

This type of question from a newbi comes up on a regular basis and the answers always fall into the same two camps.

Camp 1 - Buy Lee like me.

Camp 2 - Reloading euipment is a lifetime investment so buy high quality tools.

I have been reloading since 1958 and am firmly in Camp 2.

High quality includes names like RCBS, Redding, Hollywood, Pacific and C-H.

You can buy used single stage high quality presses on Ebay for a very attractive price. I have one old Herters press bolted to my bench that cost me a total of $1.00. The press came with two primer arms and a number of shell holders. I sold the primer arms and shell holders and bought an RCBS adapter for the press so it could use standard snap in shell holders. After the dust settled, I had $1.00 in the press. The bolts to mount it cost me more than the press.

I could put together a good reloading outfit for $100 to $200 depending on how things fell. You need...

1. reloading press with primer arm.
2. good powder scales
3. shell holder
4. reloading dies
5. powder measure

You do not need a case tumbler nor a set of calipers to start. Those will come soon enough, but you don' need them to start. After you have learned the basic you will buy

6. a good 1 inch micrometer
7. case trimer
8. case tumbler.

After that, over the years, you can spend a small fortune on other reloading equipment. When I moved a year and a half ago, I had 1,400 pounds of reloading equipment and supplies. I got the bug bad!

[Charles]

Haycock... I have had every brand of reloading die and equipment under the sun and the only bad dies I have had were Lee. The only bad reloading press was a Lee.

In 1982 I bought a Lee turrent press because I liked the price. It proved to be just fine for handgun ammo but when I loaded my first batch of match 30-06 ammo I had a shock. The ammo did not have a uniform headspace from round to round. It was the slop between the pot metal turrent and the press body that was the culprit. I gave the press away to a kid who wanted to start reloading for his 45 auto.


I would buy and use Lee equipment exclusively if it was as good a product as the higher priced spread, but my experience has taught me this is not the case.

Lee makes some very creative and well engineered products. Their collect neck sizing dies are one example of a product way ahead of the competition. You pay less for for Lee products and sometimes you get a product that works just fine, other times you don't.

Lee does stand behind their products and their customer service will fix it, if it is not correct. I just get tired of sending stuff back to Lee.

[Modoc ED]

Haycock wrote:
but I'm curious... why do so many people dislike the Lee dies???Haycock

Like I said above:

"You'll never get a satisfactory answer to that question. It's like anything else. People have their preferences. Some people are gonna flat out say that LEE sucks while others will say LEE is the best thing since sliced bread. Many of us have a mixture of LEE and other products. I myself have LEE and RCBS dies along with a mixture of various brands of scales, etc.. Then there is the snobbery to contend with along with small mindedness and unsubstantiated arguments."

As the old saying goes, "Some guys would gripe if hung with a new rope.

[Don McDowell]

And some folk have honest gripes about lousy quality, and as Charles so adeptly put it "just got tired of sending stuff back to Lee"

[Charles]

Modoc... What do you consider an unsubstantiated argument? I would think it would be an uninfomed opinion not based on fact and/or experience.

My post about Lee was based on my personal experience with Lee equipment I bought and paid for. I simply related that experience as the reason I do not favor Lee equipment. It is not rumor, hearsay, or prejudice.

I don't consider that to be either unsubstantiated or an argument, as I don't care what stuff people buy. I was just answering the question the man asked.

How would that be unsubstantiated argument, unless you are saying I am not telling the truth about my experience with Lee equipment? That is not what you are saying is it? I certainly hope not.

[El Chivo]

I do see some variation in OAL with finished rounds with my Lee Classic Cast Turret Press, but there's also variation in case length and bullets so what can you do? Mine seats them right to the groove in the bullet every time.

I noticed it has a loose feel when you seat a bullet. The arm pushes up on the die which is seated in the disc. The disc has to turn so there is some play in it. But after checking it out I'm satisfied the disc moves up a set amount every time once it contacts the metal. It feels like there's play but when the bullet is actually being seated, there's not, because the disc is making contact with the press. Hope that's not too confusing.

I'm reloading to save money, I don't use match grade bullets or cases anyway.

[Nate C.]

What about the reloader Hornady offers?

[Charles]

El Chivo... When I had my Lee turrent, I first noticed the difference in OAL of the rounds and thought the bullets were seated to different depths due to the slop/play in the pot metal turrent head. That was something I could live with.

Then one day, I hauled out the Wilson case gage and found the difference in OAL was not caused by different bullet seating depths, but by differences in the headspace. The die was pushing the case shoulder back a different amount.

The long and short of it was the die/turrent head was not going back to the same position each time the press ram was lifted. The die was in the same hole, so the problem was the fit of the press body and the die/turrent head. The die/turrent head being made of fairly soft material would wear much quicker than other presses, only increasing the problem as time goes buy.

Everybody, I guess, has to decide for himself what is acceptable and not acceptable to him. A reloading press that produced inconsistant headspace and OAL of rounds is not acceptable to me and the offending press was removed from service. I went back to using the same old upstroke Pacific press I had been using since 1958. Soon thereafter I replaced it with a downstroke RCBS Rockchucker. About five years ago I replaced RC with a 50's vintage RCBS A2 and added a Redding turrent for handgun loads.

The RCBS A2 is not much bigger than the Rockchucker and similiar in design. The principal difference is the A2 is made from steel and the RC is cast iron. In addition to the extra strength and wear resistance of the harder metal, the A2 is so slick and smooth. It is the Krag of reloading presses. It is a joy to use.

Producing high quality ammunition depends on the rounds being straight. That is the bullet straight in the case and not canted. It also depends on each round being exactly like the others is all respect. Crooked ammo or ammo that is not uniform from round to round will never produce the results I seek. second or third rate ammo is of no interest to me.

Lee caters to the budget minded reloader and in doing so offers a great service to the worldwide shooting community. I am not anti-Lee in any way, as they have a very needed place in the reloading market. Many folks start with Lee because of the price and move up to more expensive equipment as their needs and interest change.

But for the shooter that is interested in the highest quality ammo at the beginning, Lee is not the best choice in reloading equipment. So a fellow should buy what suits their interest and needs. If Lee meets their needs, then Lee is the maker of choice for that person. If not, then it is best to save a little longer and buy higher quality equipment.

These is no need for one handloader to be critical of another handloader because of their choice in equipment. This forum should be a place where folks can share their experience and discuss their needs and interests without faulting another person's character over differences in opinion.

[stretch]

I agree with Terry - buy the best you can afford.

JMIller's comments concerning the Forster Co-Ax are right on the
money. I obtained a used one of Bonanza vintage.
It looked like it was missing a couple of parts, so I stuck it on the
shelf and forgot about it. Cleaning up a few months ago, I deicded either
to fix it or toss it. I emailed Forster , and about $45 dollars later had
my press up and running. It's true - they're built like tanks, and it's easy
to load good ammo. For a beginner, this might be the best single-stage
press out there. Use anybody's dies, and no need to use shell holders.
Buy the Forster lock rings - they sell 'em by the dozen and they're cheap.
Set up your dies and forget 'em - they seem to hold the settings very well.

Don't overlook used equipment. Most of my stuff is used, and works fine.
I bought a Lyman Orange Crusher used that had maybe a box of ammo
loaded on it. Still works great, and it is also built like a tank. Lee's cast iron
Classic O-frame press is also good.

-Stretch

[firefuzz]

I started loading 35 years ago on an RCBS Rockchucker, still using the same press set up on a portable bench that use while I sit and watch the tube. Since then I've accumulated a Dillion Square Deal "B" with about 10 different sets of dies and a Dillion 650 and a ton of other loading equipment. My favorite brand of dies is Redding, can't beat them.

I've loaded over 250,000 rounds on the Square Deal, it's been back to the factory twice for an overhaul at no cost to me. It's been the best money I've ever spent on a press...for loading pistol ammo mainly 9mm, 38spl, and .45acp. I've only loaded a little rifle ammo on the D-650, about 10k rounds, mainly .223, but I've found the greater "leverage" it has over the SD is handy when loading large diameter cases like the .44s and .45s. The automatic case feed is handy for any cartridge. I'm about to set it up for .45-70 which I think it will be the berries for.

I've had mixed experience with Lee products. I've worn out four of their hand priming tools, which they replaces at no charge, and use their univerals decapping die quite a bit. But I won't use their dies any more as it's been my experience that they over-work the brass terribly. A friend bought a Lee Pro-1000 a week after I bought the Square Deal and has spent more time having it worked on than loading on it. I don't think he ever loaded 10k rounds on it and it's drawing dust on the shelf now. YMMV

I've also got an old RCBS "Jr." press that I've had for about 20 years that I loan out to beginning loaders. So far it's been used, and is "borrowed" right now, by six different people to get started in reloading. It's loaded a lot of ammo and still looks brand new.

My advice to any beginning reloader is to a quality, cast steel (iron), single-stage press to start on. Don't overlook used single stage presses here, great deals can be found at garage sales. I don't recommend brands as most companies make at least one good one. A Lee hand priming tool and a full set of collets for it and a decapping die. A good set of scales, don't scrimp here. A table mounted trimming tool that you can mount a drill moter on, you'll thank me later . Last but certainly not least...buy at least three good, current loading manuals, one of them being a Lyman, and READ..READ..READ.

I load everything I shoot except rimfires and shotguns and that may have to change. I don't even know what loaded ammo cost anymore (I'd probably faint). You won't save a dime reloading, but you'll get to shoot more and develope a much greater understand of ballastics as a reloader.

Good luck to you and be safe.

Rob

[Old Time Hunter]

I work with a group of 6,000 professionals and we tend to wander off into groups that enjoy certain hobbies, such as reloading. The reloading group is quite large and I was asked to put together a web page of Lee equipment for the person interested in spending around $300 to load rifle and pistol cartridges. Of the 1,000 of us, we favor Lee equipment so that is what this page features and it will give you some suggestions.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/Reloading/Getting_Started/

I have every Lee press offered but my preference based on my experience is the simple turret press. I have the Loadmaster, Lee's fully progressive press, but don't enjoy reloading with it. Once it is set up there is not much to the "art". If my dog wasn't three legged, I could teach her to pull the lever and poop out a cartridge. I enjoy reloading as a past time so I don't mind taking the time to enjoy the activity.

My sentiments exactly. Bought the "Anniversary Kit" years ago, still use it for the single stage, have a Dillion 550B that sits under the bench, and a Lee Classic Turret that is used at least a couple of times a week. Can't beat slapping a loaded turret in and run'n different calibers in minutes.

[AJMD429]

This topic comes up every few months, and I'm always impressed at the sound advice and experience of forum members, even though we have many different views and opinions, I really think it is helpful not only to the 'new reloader' but gives all of us other ideas and so on.

Anyway, if you do keep reloading, you WILL likely wind up with more than one press, anyway, and if you get one you're not entirely happy with, you can always sell it or pass it along to help someone else get started in reloading, so don't fret too awful much about which brand or type you get. The "start with the best" guys have a sound point, but in reality ALL the presses will turn out quality ammo if you do your part.

One thought 'against' the single-stage presses to me, is that their advantages are not necessarily what a new reloader needs. They are incredibly strong, but you're not going to be forming wildcat .243 caliber cases from .45-70 brass. They're not particularly any easier to use than a turret press, though, and the turret presses are plenty strong for ordinary reloading, be they Lee, Lyman, or whatever brand. I do think that getting all your dies for a given cartridge set up 'just right' on that 4-die 'insert' and having them stay together and all set up, ready to snap back into your press IS an advantage. Theoretically, the 'set screws' on regular dies mean that they will install exactly the same on a single-stage, which accomplishes essentially the same thing, but again, I haven't seen any advantage to the single-stage over my Lee Turret, other than brute strength, which hasn't been an issue.

OTOH, like others have said, you may want to isolate certain operations, and for me, it is de-capping 'military' brass; THAT setup stays on my RCBS single-stage, where there aren't other 'dies' that go with the process anyway, and the strength may be an advantage. So - even if you get a single-stage but quickly 'graduate' to a turret or progressive, you'll still likely use the single-stage for something anyway.

The progressive presses ARE way more involved to set up than the single-stage or turret (I think the turret is almost easier than the single-stage, and you can essentially USE it as a single-stage, that just has all the die set physically attached to each other so you don't lose them). Boy they are great if you need to reload many thousands of rounds per year, though (that's why the first Dillon's were pistol-only, since the pistol-shooters often do such high-volume shooting vs. the rifle shooters). The thing with progressives is that I don't think there would be any real way to use one of them very well in 'single-stage' mode, unlike the turrets.

I wouldn't personally want a progressive press as my ONLY press for that reason; too much trouble (others may have ways they get around this) for the first few dozen you reload with each of several settings or powder charges, etc., when 'developing' a reload. Too much trouble if you just want to load up a dozen 'cat-sneeze loads with a different bullet. Those things (to me) seem easier with a non-progressive setup.

I do my 'military decapping' and any cast-bullet swaging on my RCBS single-stage, because those are one-die setups anyway, and the military cases DO require more force for decapping/swaging.

I do my 'regular' reloading on the Lee Turret, and it is plenty fast, and easy to twiddle with as I try to get it 'just right' for a given load.

I reserve my Dillon progressive (550) for high-volume stuff where there's really only one load and bullet I'll be using for thousands of rounds.

All are great pieces of equipment, but if I could only have one, it would be the Turret, so that's why I recommend that type for starting out.

Brand-wise, for progressive presses, Dillon seems best, and the 550 is it if you want rifle and pistol both.
Brand-wise, for turret presses, I have no issues at all with the Lee, and both press and toolhead prices are great.
Brand-wise, for single-stage, they ALL seem to be decent, but the RCBS probably is most popular.

When you get set up, take some pics and let us know what YOU have found most useful...!

[Haycock]

So far the only turret press that seems to be free from quality controversy is the Lyman T-Mag II, so for now I'm leaving that at the top of my kit-list. I am discounting the Lee turret press.... I just don't need the risk of potential headaches.

I guess my next step is to flesh out the rest of the list... my neighbor has casting equipment, linotype (sp?) pigs, etc. as well, so I want to find some molds too... and I can use his tumbler so I don't need one of those.

I will probably pick one of the Lyman kits built around the T-Mag, but if anyone thinks it makes more sense to buy individual components in a best-of-breed manner please shout out with specific suggestions for a scale, die sets, trimmer, etc.

I noticed that Lyman makes molds too, but there doesn't seem to be any load data for them.

How can I find ballistic data (BC, SD, etc.) and recommended loads for common mold designs?


Haycock

[Haycock]

This topic comes up every few months, and I'm always impressed at the sound advice and experience of forum members, even though we have many different views and opinions, I really think it is helpful not only to the 'new reloader' but gives all of us other ideas and so on.

True that!!!

When you get set up, take some pics and let us know what YOU have found most useful...!

I will do it! Got my space all squared away and ready to go....


Haycock

[Don McDowell]

The Lyman Kit would be a most excellent investment.
If it doesn't come with the Lyman Reloading handbook , buy that seperate and it will list the information you're looking for on their cast bullets along with a wide variety of jacketed bullets.

[Haycock]

The Lyman Kit would be a most excellent investment.
If it doesn't come with the Lyman Reloading handbook , buy that seperate and it will list the information you're looking for on their cast bullets along with a wide variety of jacketed bullets.

Thanks, Don.

Hay

[Modoc ED]

Don McDowell and Charles -- I was a little too direct in my posts to you guys and I'd like to apologize. As said by many here, almost all reloading equipment on the market today is good quality stuff. I happened to get my start with LEE and that probably accounts for my bias for LEE dies. Funny thing is, my bench mounted press is a RCBS Challenger, one of my scales is a Lyman and I have several Hornady components too. Just goes to show how confusing the reloading game can be to a new reloader.

[Charles]

Modoc ED --- apology accepted.

[AJMD429]

I like Don McDowell's advice on the Lyman kit and manual. Agonizing over whether another brand of equipment might be 'better' is to me a waste of time; just get ANY decent brand and get started! One advantage of a 'kit' is that you'll be ready to go right away, without later realizing there's some little accessory you forgot to get.

If you're eventually dissatisfied with the Lyman turret, you can always do the right thing and trade it in for a Lee...

(Note to Lyman fans......just kidding, really!... )