another question, this time its a pistol one

[polardaddy]

Well I imagine that some of you guys play around with SA pistols, I am getting rather interested in them and doing some compititions
after some practice, my delema is which ones are good and which ones to stay away from.
I am very familiar with shooting, been doing semi auto's for a long time.
I know that uberti is a real big name, which kind of umbrella's over pietta, cimarron, which is all owned by beretta, but the couple shops I stopped to asked preferences in the SA world, most hand me a vaquero right off the bat, i even asked about uberti/cimarrom/....... and they all repeat vaquero, or to save my bucks up and get a colt, they don't even mention baretta, taurus, or even USFA.
I just called a small shop that tends to have more SA and older lever guns, this guy has a matchin set of taurus, and vaquero's. He was kind of saying to start with something not really expensive just in case this sounds more fun to me then what i may think of it after doing it, and if I do like it, I can always trade what I have in for something better next time around, kind of described it like a ladder.

So what do you all recommend?

[J Miller]

The Rugers are built tank tough. All coil springs and heavy duty parts. This goes for the Blackhawks ( all variations ) the Vaqueros and New Vaqueros.
BUT, they are not traditional single action revolvers. Their actions are very different than all the old design guns. They don't load on the half cock, you gotta flip open the loading gate with the hammer down. They have transfer bars as well. Many think this is the greatest thing since sliced bread, me ... I don't like 'em. I like the Old Model Rugers since they have the old half cock Colt style action.

The Beretta single actions are made by Uberti which Beretta owns, but they have extra lawyer inspired parts that tend to get out of order much faster than an old style action. Cimarron, and several others import Uberti single actions. They just have them built to their specs.

Most every currently made single action that's affordable will need some smoothing, polishing, and possibly new springs. Even some of the expensive ones will need work. That's just the way it is now.

So what you need to decide is weather you want a traditional action in your single action, or something along the lines of the Rugers.
Once you decide that, the choices are much easier.
Rugers, Uberti, Navy Arms, Pietta, and some others are basically affordable. Colts and USFAs are more for those with real deep pockets. That's why even though I've been shooting single actions for over 30 years I still don't own a real Colt SAA. Darn it.

Joe

[kimwcook]

Polardaddy, what kind of competitions do you plan on doing? That would help answering what type of single action you're looking for. And, what the professor said.

[Nate C.]

Apparently other folks have, but I've never had a problem with the Taurus Gaucho.

If you get the Rugers at a fair price, you can always get your money back by reselling later if you decide you don't want them. They tend to hold their value pretty good, I think.

[76/444]

I have bought Rugers for many decades,... never a disappointment. Doing comp? Lots of rounds? Nothing holds up like a Ruger in my book. And you can get a fair amount of your investment back if you decide to quit, imo.

[Ysabel Kid]

I love my Uberti's, but mainly because I love the traditional style and function. For simple workhorse use, nothing beats the Ruger. So, it just depends on what's more important and how much you intend to use it.

[polardaddy]

Polardaddy, what kind of competitions do you plan on doing? That would help answering what type of single action you're looking for. And, what the professor said.

if I get into it serious enough to compete, would probably do SASS, I have found 2 local chapters around me.
Is there really that much of a difference between 357 and 45lc? I know that with a 45 a much bigger chunk of lead is thrown, but the guy I was talking with made it sound like its 45lc or nothing. I looked on the SASS website and the only thing I could find was bigger then 32 and no bigger then 45. I'd like to get something that not everyone has, almost trying to stay away from vaqueros and colts.
Any thought?

[Steve Collins]

I'd stick with the Rugers; that way I'd have a great outdoors gun along with a competition gun.

[Pete44ru]

[I'd like to get something that not everyone has, almost trying to stay away from vaqueros and colts.]

It's one thing, to be independant, and quite another to ignore what has a proven track record under hard use - the REASON why so many recommend either a Ruger or a gennie Colt, and downplay the clones.

Under long or hard use, many of the clones - although they may seem to look the part - just won't stand the gaff, w/o exhibiting the FORD syndrome. (Fix Or Repair Daily )

.

[jdad]

Just remember CASS is a speed game. Unfortunately, this means it has become an "equipment" game. 38 & 45 squib loads tend to dominate. Heck, you could probably through the bullet faster than some of them leave the barrel.

[AmBraCol]

Polardaddy, what kind of competitions do you plan on doing? That would help answering what type of single action you're looking for. And, what the professor said.

if I get into it serious enough to compete, would probably do SASS, I have found 2 local chapters around me.
Is there really that much of a difference between 357 and 45lc? I know that with a 45 a much bigger chunk of lead is thrown, but the guy I was talking with made it sound like its 45lc or nothing. I looked on the SASS website and the only thing I could find was bigger then 32 and no bigger then 45. I'd like to get something that not everyone has, almost trying to stay away from vaqueros and colts.
Any thought?

Here's an idea for you. Get the small frame Vaquero, the one folks call the "New Vaquero". Get it in 45 Colt. Shoot FULL power 45 colt loads through it. You'll stand out from the squib load shooters simply by shooting real ammo instead of the gamers choice loads. The Vaquero tends to be much stouter than the Colts and Clones. If you want a half cock notch you can install a Power Custom kit in it. A Ruger will stand up to decades of hard use with minimal care. Or, for that matter, get a Colt or an Uberti in 45 Colt caliber - and shoot full power loads through it. Fully half of all original Colts were built in 45 Colt. So by going with "the old standby" and shooting full power loads you'll be "more authentic" than the rest of the crowd.

[Hobie]

I don't think you could beat the Ruger New Vaquero for SASS stuff. I have USFA guns, too. Like 'em all but they are different. I'd like to get a Colt but keep getting distracted.

[Griff]

To be "competitive" you need to shoot a light enough bullet to minimize recoil and yet still have enough power to handle the ocassional knockdown target. That generally equates to .38 specials with 125-140 pills. And, to get "competitive" seems to require somewhere around 25-50K rounds of PRACTICE annually. Plus attending ALL the matches you can afford to. Not something to be undertaken by the travel and financially challenged.

Now... there's different levels of competitiveness... locally, regionally, and nationally. The above would put you at the top of the game nationally, if you have some natural talent and good manual dexterity for all THREE guns. There was a time in this game that proficiency with the rifle would overcome shotgun or pistol afficionados. Simply because of average round count. 5 pistols, 2-6 shotgun and 10 rifle... weighed heavily in favor of practicing mainly with the rifle. Now; with two pistols, it's the balanced shooter that masters the transitions between the guns that will steal the show. There's a very old saying in CAS, "slow is smooth, smooth is fast". Smooth movement is deceptively fast. You may not even realize just how fast you're going with you practice that smooth movement in putting down one gun and pickin' up the next. Even shooting smoothly will overcome the herky, jerky movements in the "TRYING TO BE QUICK".

Now, I'm NOT competitive, mainly because I do not practice; and only shoot 3 or 4 matches a year. But I have been in the past, at least on a local level and amongst shooters in my class (BP load & cap n' ball revolvers).

As far as the guns, as Nate Kiowa Jones sez, you ain't gonna be competitive with bone stock guns, no matter which brand you buy. It'll take some amount of massaging to get the guns to be as smooth as you need to ensure that you can be smooth. Lightweight springs reduce the effort to overcome the interia built up as the various parts go thru their movements in cycling. The comparison he uses, (which I love), is you don't go NASCAR racing in yer auntie's Chevy Impala. His assessment may be different than mine, but... in order:

Ruger New Vaquero, modified with lightened springs, a free spin pawl, and half-cock notch.

USFA or Colt, with the addition of lightened mainspring, wire bolt/trigger spring, timing job and a Ruger hand spring and plunger.

A couple of the importers have some specific models made for competition by the various importers... EMF has the Great Western II by Pietta and these are great guns for the money... plus EMF has been a real pleasure to work with whenever I've had an issue. Then there's Taylor's "SmokeWagons" and Cimarron's "Evil Roys". I believe that both of these are Uberti clones, and have some spring work and timing work done before they leave the respective importer. I know that the GW IIs, the Evil Roys and EMF's Hartford's have the flat, Colt style hand spring removed and a coil spring with a plunger (ala Ruger) installed. This is possibly the greatest increase in longevity you'll find. Colts and their clones have been notorious for breaking hand springs at the worst possible moment. (At least that's what I and a few friends have endured).

I would stay as far as you can get from the Colt "Cowboy" or any of the clones with a transfer bar system. While, yes, they are safe... adding these parts have also increase the number of parts prone to breakage and interference with the basic action of the pistol. Under SASS rules they're just not needed. You'll only load 5 at the loading station, and any scenario that requires a 6th round it will be loaded after the pistol has been drawn and you're "under the clock".

The above represents my in-expert opinion after participation in cowboy action matches over a 24 year span. Trust me, if it's happened, I've seen it! (Except for one, which I won't go into.)

EDIT: One other wrinkle you need to be aware of... two shooting categories require pistols of .40 caliber or greater. They are Classic Cowboy and Classic Cowgirl, both of which also have stringent costume requirements. Not to mention the gender thing. Now note... that the .36 caliber cap n' ball revolver is legal for ANY SASS category. It sure reduces the decision making process for loads, etc. A lil' BP, 77grain round pills in .375 or .380 diameter, a "WonderWad" and you're good to go! Is it any wonder that that's what I use! And, yes, my .36 1851 Navies have been modified with Ruger hand springs, Manhatten conversion to reduce the likelihood of caps falling back into the action, timed and smoothed to ease operation and reduce breakage. But, all for naught, as without that PRACTICE, (sinful activity that it is), I ain't gonna be "Competitive"! But, I still have F.U.N.!!!!

[Buck Elliott]

The "new" Vaqueros seem to be the 'go-to' guns at the moment. Like all Rugers, they're tank-tough, and can benefit from some judicious 'smithing. They are not "true" clones -- having different lockwork, &c., but the NEW vaquero handles more like a Colt than the older model, BUT WILL NOT TAKE THE STOUT LOADS so many of us grew fond of in our Original Vaqueros.

The offerings from Beretta/Uberti are better than they were in times past, ever since Beretta took over the reins. I have a Talyor's (Uberti) and a couple of Stampedes (Beretta) and they're as good as -- if not better than -- most standard guns coming from the Colt Custom Shop right now. They're precisely timed and with very little attention to the innards, silky-smooth.

I shoot .454" diameter cast bullets in all of them, just like I do in my 'original' Ruger Vaquero, and my Taylor's (Uberti) '73 rifle.

The Pietta guns are NOT made by Beretta/Uberti, but are another breed of cat entirely. Some have good luck with them; others not so good, but they seem to be getting a handle on things, lately. the new Great Western revolvers from EMF are out of Pietta, and look pretty good. The older Pietta C&B revolvers were (IMNSHO) worse than boat anchors, and still are, for the most part.

The Taurus 'Gaucho' can be good, bad or kinda mediocre -- depends on the day it was made, I think. Most of the Gauchos I've seen, handled, and worked on were the epitome of mediocrity... BTW, the gun was once discontinued by Taurus "due to popularity" -- their words, not mine...

[polardaddy]

Wow thanks for all the tips, here is another question though,

Is a 44 considered old school enough at most of the comps? that is if I can find a couple older vaqueros for good prices.
The reason I ask is, I have a bunch of shells for both 357/38special and 44 mag/special, I also have dies for the calibers and really don't want to have to start all over going with 45 long colt. any more thoughts?

[Buck Elliott]

Don't pay any mind to the cartridges somebody else is shooting. "Old School" or not, there's not a thing wrong with shooting .38/.357 Mag or .44 Spl/Mag ammo for CAS. Just tame your loads down to a comfortable level and you'll be all right. Remember that SASS rules dictate an upper limit of 1000 fps for revolver ammo. Stay well under that, and your gun should outlast YOU.

SOmething in the neighborhood of 700 - 750 fps will do all you need to get done in CAS.

[polardaddy]

cool,

thank you buck, i have reloaded for quite some time and always reloaded on the low end of the scales, my guns have nothing to prove to me. And I think the 357/38special is way cheaper to reload.

[adirondakjack]

.38 or .44 is just fine. I started CAS 6 years ago with a blackhawk and a (big) vaquero in .45. I bought a second vaquero and never looked back. If I shoot em another 20 years they won't be wore out. Ya can't say that about colts or clones.

The "curiosity factor" of somethin different will last about 12 minutes. The problems if ya have any, will last until ya get frustrated and lose yer behind trading a beat up clone for a ruger.

Make no mistake. Though a thing of beauty, the 1840s style colt lockwork was never designed to take the kind of pounding CAS puts a gun through. Rugers will stand it. (Even Elmer Keith said Ruger made a better gun than colt ever did.)

[polardaddy]

yeah, I'm thinking the ruger will be my next addition. I have a double action i'm thinking of trading in to cut the cost a bit. I stopped in at cabela's the other day to see prices and availability, I was surprised, they even had colts on hand stuff they even had the "man with no name" series from cimarron. but liked the feel of the vaquero best.