325 gr FTX and .45-70 1886 - Newbie posting

[vancelw]

I'm new to this forum and fairly new to reloading (<2 years) Most of what I have loaded is .223 varmint and .40-65 cast (for my humbling attempts at the Quigley Shoot.)

I recently acquired a Browning 1886 in .45-70 that was made in 1986. I loaded 10 rounds of ammo with the 325 gr. FTX bullet and 38 gr of 5744. With my reloads and a box of factory LeverEvolution ammo, I headed to the range with my chrony.
The factory stuff averaged 1960 fps and my loads averaged 1760 fps. I wasn't worried about accuracy, but the factory sight let me put 11 rounds in a 5 inch circle. A better sight is in my future, as my goal is to take a mule deer with the gun this season. I'm hoping to work up to a 4" point blank range of just under 200 yards.

After reading this forum and others (and subjects of things blowing up) I need some reassurance.
Hornady says to trim the brass to 2.040 and I used 2.080 brass. The rounds cycled through the action and I saw no signs of overpressure. The primer on the fired factory ammo was mashed much flatter than my reloads.
Is there any reason for me to trim the brass, rendering it "FTX only" brass? Am I overlooking a danger by not trimming it? I'd like to get a little more velocity out of my reloads, but if I'm pushing the limits already, I can settle with a shorter point blank range.

Thanks for any advice. ( I already know to take a recoil pad next time I go to the range!)

[deerwhacker444]

Welcome..!

Somebody who reloads for a 45-70 will be along shortly.

[Leverluver]

The FTX bullet is longer than standard from the crimp groove to the tip of the bullet. The reason they are saying to trim the case is so the crimp groove is in the proper position for crimping. Without trimming, you cannot crimp in the groove supplied. The bullet needs to be supported so that recoil and magazine pressures do not push the bullet back into the case, which can raise pressures. Now you "can" use standard brass length IF you use a powder that supports the base of the bullet so that it cannot be pushed back into the case. That will mean that you will be looking at the slower burning and bulkier powders for the cartridge. This is not unlike what Buffalo Bore does when they load the Speer 350 which also does not have a crimp groove in the proper place when using standard brass length. They use a compacted load of Benchmark to support the bullet and just roll crimp over the ogive. The roll crimp stops bullet movement forward and the powder stops bullet movement backwards.

BTW, I loaded and tested that bullet to some pretty high velocities. The factory loads (<2000fps) work pretty well but if you push velocities too much, it turns into a fat varmint bullet.

[vancelw]

That's the thing...I DID crimp it in the groove. I didn't measure overall cartridge length, but I tried the very first one in my rifle, and it chambered fine. No resistance at all. It cycled through the action just fine as well.

I guess I could make a cast of the chamber to see exactly what I have. I'd like to develop some cast loads for this rifle, using Lyman's 535 gr Postell.

[86er]

I've used the FTX crimped in the groove in my 1886 and it cycled and fired fine with no excessive pressure. The rifle can take a little longer overall length so it shouldn't be a problem.

[Leverluver]

Hornady is just trying to keep things within SAAMI spec. They know how long the bullet is and where their ogive meets a minimum spec chamber. If your rifle can take a longer than SAAMI OAL and there are no problems with the bullet being jammed into the rifling , like 86er says, no problem using a standard case.

[vancelw]

Now that I think about it (and put aside my stubbornness,) it won't hurt a thing for me to trim the brass like Hornady says. I don't plan on mixing my "hunting" brass and my cast load brass anyway.

I bought the FTX bullets and loaded them before I found out that you were supposed to trim the brass. You'd think they'd put a note in the box of bullets, since .45-70 is what most people are going to load the 325 gr FTX in. I would have noticed a problem if the round was too long to chamber.

The Lord looks after children and idiots, so I'm covered both ways.

Thanks, guys.

[RKrodle]

Take a already fired, but not resized case. Using the sharp edge of a counter top, or something similar, press the side of the case mouth against it to cause an indent at the case mouth. It doesn't have to be much. Now, place a bullet in the case by hand just enough that it is held in by the indent. Leave the bullet sticking out as much as possible without it falling out. Take a magic marker and black the entire bullet. Lever the action open and insert the case and bullet into the chamber and close the action completely. Open the lever and carefully remove the case and bullet. Note the bullet may stick in the rifling and not come out with the case, use a cleaning rod and push the bullet out from the muzzle end. Inspect the bullet and you will see where the indent in the case removed the black form the bullet by sliding up on the bullet. Where it stopped at is the MAX over all length that that particular bullet can be seated at in that particular rifle. Now, you will want to seat your bullets somewhere short of this. So if your crimp grove is beyond where the black is removed from the bullet then you are ok to crimp in the crimp grove. This applies for chamber length but not necessary action length. If you are using longer cases then the book calls for and seating the bullet to the crimp grove the pressures will usually be lower. Hope this helps.

[RKrodle]

Now that I think about it (and put aside my stubbornness,) it won't hurt a thing for me to trim the brass like Hornady says. I don't plan on mixing my "hunting" brass and my cast load brass anyway.

I bought the FTX bullets and loaded them before I found out that you were supposed to trim the brass. You'd think they'd put a note in the box of bullets, since .45-70 is what most people are going to load the 325 gr FTX in. I would have noticed a problem if the round was too long to chamber.

The Lord looks after children and idiots, so I'm covered both ways.

Thanks, guys.

If the standard length cases work then I would not trim them.

[vancelw]

OK. I seated an FTX in an empty case.

Starting with 2.087" brass, I ended up with a COL of 2.624. It took several tries to be sure, because the end of the brass ended up right at the bottom of the crimping cannelure, which allowed the bullet to slip. The cannelure is about 0.070 in width. So, it looks like I can trim my brass to 2.080 and not worry. I should end up with a COL of less than the 2.600 Hornady recommends. I'll pay particular attention to my first round when I load for my next trip to the range.

I did the same thing with a Lymand 535 gr Postell and got an overall length of 2.968". If I use 2.080 brass and seat all the way to the top of the last grease groove, I should end up with an COL of approx. 2.900.
Both of these bullets are supposed to be .458 in diameter.

Anybody out there have load they have developed for 5744 and the 325 gr FTX? Like I said, I used 38.0 gr of 5744 to get 1760 fps. If I can safely get this up to 1950 fps, I will have a 4" point blank range right at 200 yards, which is as far as I want to shoot a deer with iron sights. ( I might be tempted to try a farther shot on a coyote )

[Warhawk]

The thing is, about 99% of the .45-70 lever guns in use today are Marlins. The Marlin is very sensitive to overall length. I'm sure that Hornady's OAL warning pertains to the Marlin lever guns.

The Browning 1886 (and probably other 1886's, but I have only used the Browning) will function with much longer OAL ammo. This is probably why you have not had any problems.

If you have a friend with a Marlin, you might try your dummy round in it. I suspect it will be too long.

[RKrodle]

From what data I can find, having never used 5744 myself, it looks like your at about top end for that powder. I would look at getting something like H4198 and it shouldn't be any problem reaching that speed and then some. Where about in Texas are you?

[Mike D.]

Despite the considerable difference in bullet length between the Hornady Original and Barnes TSX, when loaded correctly the cartridges should be equal in overall length. I trim my cases to the specified 2.105", maximum length. There is no need to go shorter. After loading both are 2.510", with bullets seated and crimped. The TSX should be seated to the top groove, not below. I reduce the powder charge approximately 5 grains when loading the longer bullet. MV is MUCH higher with the TSX, so a seriously compressed load is unnecessary.

[vancelw]

From what data I can find, having never used 5744 myself, it looks like your at about top end for that powder. I would look at getting something like H4198 and it shouldn't be any problem reaching that speed and then some. Where about in Texas are you?

I'm near Paris, the one with the red cowboy hat on the eiffel tower.

I finally found Hornady's FTX data for a Marlin 1895, which shows that 47.9 gr. of IMR 4198 will give 2150fps. I may try a lesser charge and see if I can get a velocity somewhere around 2000 fps. I'm not trying to max the gun, just get a 4" point blank range of about 200 yards. Any more than that, and I don't trust my eyes enough with iron sights to make a humane kill.

I was trying to stay with 5744, because I buy it 8 lbs at a time. ( I use it in my BPCR Browning .40-65 and .45-70) I have a .223 load for prairie dogs that I use 5744 for, and it works great. I also use the 5744 for my .45 colt. I have 2, unopened 1 lb containers of 4198 at home, but I've had them a while and can't attest to their proper storage. Is there a good place in NE Texas or DFW to buy powder? Usually, when I find powder on a shelf around here it is in an antique container and overpriced. I usually buy my powder in Miles City when I am on my way home from hunting and visiting. I may have to scrounge up some reloading buddies to make paying Haz-Mat shipping fees tolerable.

[RKrodle]

Your not to far from me, I'm near Greenville. I usually pick up powder at a gun show or one of the shops over in the Dallas area. I use a lot of H4895 but keep several other powders on hand. I use 4198 for my 358 win. Some of us from around here get together every once in a while and shoot, you should come next time.

[vancelw]

Just say when. I don't get to shoot or fish often enough...stoopid work gets in the way.

Does the ammo dump (or whatever its called) in Caddo Mills sell powder? I missed Market Hall last go round, and Big Town is all Black guns (I like 'em, just have plenty already.) I may spend a day at Wanamacher's in Tulsa on my way to MT deer heaven next month. Drool on all the old guns.

[RKrodle]

Ammo Depot. I'm only a couple of miles from them. Sometimes they have powder but never any I use. They don't have much reloading stuff. There's a place in Mesquite called Southwest Reloaders (?) , they are in downtown and only open like Thur - Sunday. They have a real good selection of IMR and H powders, along with Winchester and Norma. They normally setup at all the gun shows. Also B&S guns at Beltline and I-30 has a fair selection of powder but not bullets.

[Warhawk]

From what data I can find, having never used 5744 myself, it looks like your at about top end for that powder. I would look at getting something like H4198 and it shouldn't be any problem reaching that speed and then some. Where about in Texas are you?

I'm near Paris, the one with the red cowboy hat on the eiffel tower.

I finally found Hornady's FTX data for a Marlin 1895, which shows that 47.9 gr. of IMR 4198 will give 2150fps. I may try a lesser charge and see if I can get a velocity somewhere around 2000 fps. I'm not trying to max the gun, just get a 4" point blank range of about 200 yards. Any more than that, and I don't trust my eyes enough with iron sights to make a humane kill.

I was trying to stay with 5744, because I buy it 8 lbs at a time. ( I use it in my BPCR Browning .40-65 and .45-70) I have a .223 load for prairie dogs that I use 5744 for, and it works great. I also use the 5744 for my .45 colt. I have 2, unopened 1 lb containers of 4198 at home, but I've had them a while and can't attest to their proper storage. Is there a good place in NE Texas or DFW to buy powder? Usually, when I find powder on a shelf around here it is in an antique container and overpriced. I usually buy my powder in Miles City when I am on my way home from hunting and visiting. I may have to scrounge up some reloading buddies to make paying Haz-Mat shipping fees tolerable.

I'm not sure which route you take to Montana, but Powder Valley near Winfield, KS is one of the best places to buy power and primers.

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

They are a few miles east of I-35 just across the Kansas state line.

[vancelw]

[

I'm not sure which route you take to Montana, but Powder Valley near Winfield, KS is one of the best places to buy power and primers.

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

They are a few miles east of I-35 just across the Kansas state line.[/quote]

Thanks! I usually go through KC to Sioux Falls before going west, lot faster roads that way. Sometimes I break my OCD and try a different route. During Deer season, it depends on the weather what route I take.
I looked at the powder valley website, and their powder prices do look good. If I find powder I want in MT, there's no sales tax, so that helps some. I can see it won't be long before I reload for everything I have (except my .22s and duty weapons.) I know I can load 50 .45 Colt cowboy rounds for not much over $6.00, when all the stores want $35 to $49 for a box! I think I enjoy the casting more than the reloading.

[vancelw]

Finally, a sunny day where i could use my chronograph. I forgot what "bright" was. We've had rain for two or three weeks straight. Animals were showing up on my back porch in twos.

For my 325 gr FTX bullet, I used (and got results on 5 shot groups):

5744 39.0 gr 1785 fps
4198 43.7 gr 1903 fps
4198 45.8 gr 2039 fps

Didn't see any any signs of over pressure, so I'm going to start loading the 4198-45.8 gr and sighting the rifle in. I got 4 inch groups at 100 yards with the stock sights. I'll have to get better sights if I want to shoot much farther than that, the stock Browning sights are hard for me to use with my eyes finally aging.

If I shoot a white tail with this thing, I won't have to field dress it. Makes a big hole...

[crs]

A good and informative thread guys!
Except of course for all the rantings of that guy, Ricky, down by Caddo Mills. He does have a good place to shoot though.
My place is in Farmersville just a bit north of Caddo Mills, so let us all know if you head down Dallas way.

[RKrodle]

Finally, a sunny day where i could use my chronograph. I forgot what "bright" was. We've had rain for two or three weeks straight. Animals were showing up on my back porch in twos.

For my 325 gr FTX bullet, I used (and got results on 5 shot groups):

5744 39.0 gr 1785 fps
4198 43.7 gr 1903 fps
4198 45.8 gr 2039 fps

Didn't see any any signs of over pressure, so I'm going to start loading the 4198-45.8 gr and sighting the rifle in. I got 4 inch groups at 100 yards with the stock sights. I'll have to get better sights if I want to shoot much farther than that, the stock Browning sights are hard for me to use with my eyes finally aging.

If I shoot a white tail with this thing, I won't have to field dress it. Makes a big hole...

Glad to see it working out the way you want, congrats. I like a receiver sight, it sure helps me to see better.
Oh, don't paying any attention to that CRS guy that posted above. If he gives you any trouble let me know, I'll tell his wife on him .

[vancelw]

Glad to see it working out the way you want, congrats. I like a receiver sight, it sure helps me to see better.
Oh, don't paying any attention to that CRS guy that posted above. If he gives you any trouble let me know, I'll tell his wife on him .

I have been thinking about a MVA sporting vernier tang sight, but I don't have $220 right now (unless I sell something and that ain't gonna happen just yet.) Have to save my pennies.

I have a full buckhorn that tips up to a ladder sight on my 1892 .45 Colt. I really like that sight for the .45 Colt, except for the fact there's no markings on the ladder. I could live with a sight like that on my 1886 .45-70. I guess I could swap it out and try it to see how I like it before I go down the wrong path.

I have to go to Austin this week. May have to stop off at the Waco gun show and the Austin Gun show to see if any money jumps outa my pockets.

[Leverluver]

I was quite pleased with the quality of these. I put one on my 73 Uberti and it works and fits great. I tried it on my Miroku 86s (Browning octagon and USRAC EL) and found that the dovetails on both were too large for the sights. It is fairly common for the Mirokus to be a little on the large size and at least that will make you work harder to make one fit. If you do, it will work well if your eyes are young enough.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,234.html

[SJPrice]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,3138.html

I have the full buckhorn Smith on both of my Browning 1886's. One is a SRC and the other is the rifle with octagon 26 inch barrel. I like them real well as they allow me to use them like a peep for close fast shots. The only thing I do not understand is the dovetail on the SRC is set all the way to the rear of the barrel and makes for a great sight picture. The longer rifle however has the dovetail set about 4 inches forward and so the rear sight is not as close to your eye. Still works, but closer to your eye seems to work better. I added fiber optic fronts to both and they are great for low light quick shots. I made the front blade for the SRC by modifying a .430 green fiber optic sight blade from my FA model 83

[vancelw]

I think if I had a carbine, that is exactly the sight I would put on it. I have a similar one on my 24" barreled .45 Colt and love it.

Has anyone ever mounted one of these sights (or similar) to an 1886 Browning or Winchester? Did you have problems with the bolt hitting the sight? I *think* I'd like to put one of these on my 26" octagon barreled 1886. I'd like to any any pros and cons anyone has to offer on that idea.

TIA