Heavier than normal subsonic ammo question

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:28 pm

At the IN get together I got to compare the Colibri 60gr SSS subsonic ammo to Winchesters 40gr Super-X high velocity as it impacted the 25 yard swinger target.

What I saw was the sub sonic Colibri 60gr load hit the swinger harder and moved it more, than the HV WIN 40gr ammo did.

So moving this to center fire ammo, would it not be logical that the same scenario would play out say with the 30-30, 308, 303Brit and so forth?

So knowing zip about sub sonic rifle ammo, how would one go about designing such a thing? I know some have done it as I remember seeing sub sonic in the subject lines before. I just never paid attention.

Hobie, we need a dunce hat smiley.

Joe

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:43 pm

Heavier bullets retain more energy out to a certain point. So, yea within a reasonable distance, a heavy yet slower moving bullet should do the same regardless of caliber. Lot's of variables, but that's a pretty good rule of thumb. Take a look at any of the ammo makers charts. They'll usually show higher retained energy figures for heavier bullets than lighter ones. But you give up flatness of trajectory for the higher retained energy. No free lunch, in other words.

Post by **David** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:52 pm

By the way if you didn't know Aguila (Colibri) is actually Remington made in Mexico...

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:58 pm

The other consideration is the rate of twist and the rifle's ability to stabalize the longer/heavier bullets. Retained energy means nadda if the bullet is flying off course.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:06 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:The other consideration is the rate of twist and the rifle's ability to stabalize the longer/heavier bullets. Retained energy means nadda if the bullet is flying off course.

True, that's one of the variables I didn't mention because he was asking about the effect heavier bullets in a give caliber would have on the swinger.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:14 pm

In .303brit the 200gr + bullets were very popular for large game. The Enfields had a 1:10 twist so no problems with the bigger pills. For most hunting situations the heavy slugs would hit harder in the 30 bores as long as they are capable of performing at the lower speeds brought about by decreased case capacity. Same reason the .45 and .50 cal BP cartridges used heavy bullets they hit hard and penetrated deeply.

I would look long and hard for a mold that would throw a .215gr or greater bullet easy for the .30cal not so easy for the .303 but they are out there. Then I would work up a load based on the velocity you are looking for.

Montana bullet works has some that are 200grn might be worth playing with. http://www.montanabulletworks.com/wst_page5.html

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:01 pm

JReed wrote:In .303brit the 200gr + bullets were very popular for large game. The Enfields had a 1:10 twist so no problems with the bigger pills. For most hunting situations the heavy slugs would hit harder in the 30 bores as long as they are capable of performing at the lower speeds brought about by decreased case capacity. Same reason the .45 and .50 cal BP cartridges used heavy bullets they hit hard and penetrated deeply.

I would look long and hard for a mold that would throw a .215gr or greater bullet easy for the .30cal not so easy for the .303 but they are out there. Then I would work up a load based on the velocity you are looking for.

Montana bullet works has some that are 200grn might be worth playing with. http://www.montanabulletworks.com/wst_page5.html

A cast bullet would have to be a specialty mold for sure. My rifle has a .317" grove diameter. Not sure how smaller bullets would work in it.

Joe

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:06 pm

That does pose a problem.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:18 pm

I just sent an email to Montana Bullet Works. Gave the the scoop on my rifle and asked what they thought about it.

I'll let you know what they say.

Joe

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:26 pm

For sure let us know.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:35 pm

My question and MBW response.
Joe

A .314" cast bullet certainly wouldn't be ideal in your situation but since it has shot undersized jacketed bullets, it may perform with cast. There really isn't any way for me to know.

Dave

Montana Bullet Works
7730 Hesper Road
Billings, MT 59106
406-655-8163
Email: Dave@MontanaBulletWorks.com
www.MontanaBulletWorks.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 303 Brit questions
From: "J Miller" <BgKatt2@outdrs.net>
Date: Fri, June 19, 2009 4:16 pm
To: <Dave@MontanaBulletWorks.com>

I've had several shooters recomend your 200gr cast bullets for my 303 British rifle. The problem is my rifle is a Canadian made No4 Mk1 with a two groove barrel. It has a .303" bore with a .317" grove diameter.
Since your 303 bullets have a maximum diameter of .314" I'm concerned about how these would work.
It has a fair barrel, shoots 180gr Sierra Pro Hunters (.311") very nicely and flat based ball ammo even better.

What would you suggest in this situation?

Joe

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:39 pm

JReed wrote:That does pose a problem.

Not really. You can get a custom mould from Mountain Molds for around $100 for a 2cavity Aluminium mould.

http://www.mountainmolds.com/

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:55 pm

Joe,
The cast bullets may bump up large enough if you get some fairly soft ones.
Commercial cast bullets generally tend to be too hard and too small.

You will know fairly quickly if you keep an eye on the bore.
There are a number of folks who are paper patching underized bullets for larer bores.
If you have time to poke around on the cast boolits forum you should find many threads about paper patching.

The 10" twist should stabilize a bullet up to about 200 grains at subsonic velocities.

Jack

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:14 pm

The 8mm is .323" and you are looking for .319-.320
Seems like you could just size them down.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:31 pm

Tycer, I thought about that too but it's too much trouble.
Someday I might get into casting for this old rifle, but not here.

Joe

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:42 pm

Tycer wrote:The 8mm is .323" and you are looking for .319-.320
Seems like you could just size them down.

I had the same thought but didn't know how involved Joe wanted to get.

Joe Mountain Mold will make a custom mold at a reasonable price it may be something you should keep in mind if you end up moving.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:49 pm

JReed wrote:
Tycer wrote:The 8mm is .323" and you are looking for .319-.320
Seems like you could just size them down.
I had the same thought but didn't know how involved Joe wanted to get.

Joe Mountain Mold will make a custom mold at a reasonable price it may be something you should keep in mind if you end up moving.

Jeremy, no "if" to it, just when.

Joe

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:24 am

Momentum vs energy, results make sense from that point of view.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:08 am

I'm interested in how this turns out Joe. My subsonic 405g .44 load is an extreme example, percentage wise. It has good smacking power, and easily rings steel at 100 yards, so trajectory isn't big deal. And it has massive penetration.

I'm curious about how the effectiveness of heavy-for-caliber scales down. From your .22 experience, and from the results of the 200g .357 cast on steel it appears that it's a universal phenomenum. (sp)

Hopefully you'll have a range demonstration soon.

Grizz

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:34 am

OK, now I'm gonna ask a stupid question. It's a stupid question because I could look it up but I'm too lazy right now.

At what velocity does a bullet go super sonic?

Joe

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:18 am

J Miller wrote:OK, now I'm gonna ask a stupid question. It's a stupid question because I could look it up but I'm too lazy right now.

At what velocity does a bullet go super sonic?

Joe

Just a tad above 1110 fps. But that's going to vary depending on atmospheric condtions. Things like temperature, humidity, altitude, etc.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:18 pm

Tycer wrote:The 8mm is .323" and you are looking for .319-.320
Seems like you could just size them down.

A Lee Sizer die is only $29 and available here in ANY diameter you want:

http://leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/bro ... OMLUBESIZE

Maximum bullet diameter is .575.

We need:

Payment of $29.00 ($25.00 + $4.00 processing fee)
Desired diameter to the factory
Please allow 4 weeks for delivery.

They are really FAST, and easy to use. Here's the page with the picture:

http://leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/bro ... esize.html

I'd do that for NOW; down the road if you start casting, you may still use it anyway, so no wasted money.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:22 pm

It absolutely makes sense. Momentum (weight X velocity) favors heavier bullets as compared to light and fast favoring energy (velocity SQUARED X weight). MOMENTUM swings a plate, energy punches a hole in it

The boys on the cast bullet forum have done a lot of playing with heavy for caliber cast bullets.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:03 pm

J Miller wrote:OK, now I'm gonna ask a stupid question. It's a stupid question because I could look it up but I'm too lazy right now.

At what velocity does a bullet go super sonic?

Joe

depends on your temperature and altitude, or density altitude; IOW it varies:

In dry air at sea level with a temperature of 21 °C (70 °F) the speed of sound is 344 m/s (1230 km/h, or 770 mph, or 1130 ft/s).

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:54 am

Grizz wrote:
J Miller wrote:OK, now I'm gonna ask a stupid question. It's a stupid question because I could look it up but I'm too lazy right now.

At what velocity does a bullet go super sonic?

Joe
depends on your temperature and altitude, or density altitude; IOW it varies:

In dry air at sea level with a temperature of 21 °C (70 °F) the speed of sound is 344 m/s (1230 km/h, or 770 mph, or 1130 ft/s).

Sorta what I said. But here's a question for you. Does the same bullet go subsonic at the same speed? It's a trick question, so think about it .

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:51 am

J Miller wrote:At the IN get together I got to compare the Colibri 60gr SSS subsonic ammo to Winchesters 40gr Super-X high velocity as it impacted the 25 yard swinger target.

What I saw was the sub sonic Colibri 60gr load hit the swinger harder and moved it more, than the HV WIN 40gr ammo did.

So moving this to center fire ammo, would it not be logical that the same scenario would play out say with the 30-30, 308, 303Brit and so forth?

So knowing zip about sub sonic rifle ammo, how would one go about designing such a thing? I know some have done it as I remember seeing sub sonic in the subject lines before. I just never paid attention.

Hobie, we need a dunce hat smiley.

Joe

Basically, get a big, heavy bullet, find a good load for it, then, don't try to make it go fast.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:31 am

Travis Morgan wrote:
J Miller wrote:So knowing zip about sub sonic rifle ammo, how would one go about designing such a thing? Joe
Basically, get a big, heavy bullet, find a good load for it, then, don't try to make it go fast.

I think it was the "find a good load for it" part he was referring to (?).

Not alot of load data for the 405 grain .44 Mag or 530 gr. 444 Marlin slugs out there, so you sort of feel you're going into uncharted, and possibly dangerous, territory.

...of course, that's one of the many things forums like THIS are good for...!

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:07 am

Yeah, I've found a few deals like that, loading odd stuff.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:43 am

Not alot of load data for the 405 grain .44 Mag or 530 gr. 444 Marlin slugs out there, so you sort of feel you're going into uncharted, and possibly dangerous, territory.

This is true. As a customer of beartooth bullets I ask for load data for the bullets I buy. Marshall has pressure tested data for his 405g .44 bullet. He shoots it from a 5-1/2" redhawk. He gets over 1000 fps, but I don't. Since I don't know why I accept the low velocity, low recoil, high penetration results I'm getting with a big smile.

I watch the velocities and I DON'T try to get his top loads. I loaded his top load for another round and when my workup loads got as much velocity as I wanted from that gun I declined to shoot the rest of the series. I'm saving them for a good chrono day with the Buffalo Classic.

The chrono is your lifesaving friend when you're exploring new loads. Knowing when to stop is also a good skill to work at....

For the .30-something calibers I'd look around marlinowners or the cast bullet forum for those who are already doing it and see what they've come up with.

Regards,

Grizz

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:37 am

Grizz wrote: This is true. As a customer of beartooth bullets I ask for load data for the bullets I buy. Marshall has pressure tested data for his 405g .44 bullet. He shoots it from a 5-1/2" redhawk. He gets over 1000 fps, but I don't. Since I don't know why I accept the low velocity, low recoil, high penetration results I'm getting with a big smile.
Grizz

That is helpful. Thanks. I was planning on getting some heavies and that is one more reason to use Beartooth.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:43 pm

jeepnik wrote:
Grizz wrote:
J Miller wrote:OK, now I'm gonna ask a stupid question. It's a stupid question because I could look it up but I'm too lazy right now.

At what velocity does a bullet go super sonic?

Joe
depends on your temperature and altitude, or density altitude; IOW it varies:

In dry air at sea level with a temperature of 21 °C (70 °F) the speed of sound is 344 m/s (1230 km/h, or 770 mph, or 1130 ft/s).
Sorta what I said. But here's a question for you. Does the same bullet go subsonic at the same speed? It's a trick question, so think about it .

No. Higher speed.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:35 pm

I read this awhile ago and just remembered where I saw it. Great read and is very close to what you are trying to do.
http://surplusrifle.com/articles2008/tr ... /index.asp

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:36 pm

Yes; the speed of sound!

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:05 pm

Joe,
Yes, as you witnessed, all things being equal, heavier bullets do produce more momentum. I am wondering if your fired cases would accept a .321" diameter cast bullet?? I have a small supply of Saeco 190 gr. bullets that a friend gave to me awhile back. I'd be happy to send them to you for testing.

w30wcf

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:40 pm

w30wcf wrote:Joe,
Yes, as you witnessed, all things being equal, heavier bullets do produce more momentum. I am wondering if your fired cases would accept a .321" diameter cast bullet?? I have a small supply of Saeco 190 gr. bullets that a friend gave to me awhile back. I'd be happy to send them to you for testing.

w30wcf

I've never measured the ID of the fired case mouths. I could fake it a bit with my calipers but that wouldn't give a really accurate reading.
I'll PM you my mailing addy and give those bullets a try. If they don't fit the cases I could always buy a Lee sizer and skinny 'em up a bit.

Joe

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:52 pm

JReed wrote:I read this awhile ago and just remembered where I saw it. Great read and is very close to what you are trying to do.
http://surplusrifle.com/articles2008/tr ... /index.asp

Thanks for the r-tickle. I read it and saved it. I never thought of using Trail Boss in the 303.

Joe

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:47 pm

J Miller wrote:
JReed wrote:I read this awhile ago and just remembered where I saw it. Great read and is very close to what you are trying to do.
http://surplusrifle.com/articles2008/tr ... /index.asp
Thanks for the r-tickle. I read it and saved it. I never thought of using Trail Boss in the 303.

Joe

Its some thing I want to try so my kids can shoot it and not get beat up. We will both have to gets some and load up a bunch and ring them out at the next get together. I may even load some in the .308 might make the H&R fun to shoot.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:36 pm

JReed wrote:
J Miller wrote:
JReed wrote:I read this awhile ago and just remembered where I saw it. Great read and is very close to what you are trying to do.
http://surplusrifle.com/articles2008/tr ... /index.asp
Thanks for the r-tickle. I read it and saved it. I never thought of using Trail Boss in the 303.

Joe
Its some thing I want to try so my kids can shoot it and not get beat up. We will both have to gets some and load up a bunch and ring them out at the next get together. I may even load some in the .308 might make the H&R fun to shoot.

Jeremy,
I wouldn't worry about your boys getting beat up. When my youngest step son was 10 we all went shooting as often as we could. I tried to get him to shoot the .22s, he'd have none of it. He wanted my Enfield. He couldn't hold it up very well, but that shorter than standard military stock made it pretty easy to shoot. Win 94s with full power loads, my Win 94AE with black powder loads, the Enfield, but no 22s.

We had a blast for a while.

Joe

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:00 pm

Evan ( the youngest) is recoil sensitive. He doesn't even like to shoot round ball loads out of my .45 trapper.

I think a 200gr .303 at 1,000fps would really ding the ram @ 200M.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:06 pm

JReed wrote:Evan ( the youngest) is recoil sensitive. He doesn't even like to shoot round ball loads out of my .45 trapper.

I think a 200gr .303 at 1,000fps would really ding the ram @ 200M.

Evan is 7, right? Mine was 10. Lots of growth in 3 years. I concede your point.

I do believe you are right. If you get some loaded up bring enough so's I can try them. I'm not sure what I'm gonna load up for the next time.

As for round ball loads I had a box of them I loaded up some time back that are really puny. So little pressure the primers were backing out and locking up the revolver. I'm afraid of shooting then out of the rifle. I put a mega crimp on them just before the get together with my Lee FCD and was gonna shoot 'em up last weekend. But I forgot.

Joe

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:15 pm

JReed wrote:I read this awhile ago and just remembered where I saw it. Great read and is very close to what you are trying to do.
http://surplusrifle.com/articles2008/tr ... /index.asp

Interesting...I wonder how that would work in the 6.5 Swede?

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:14 am

I was really underwhelmed with trailboss loads from my .30-30. Right now, I'm using 16.5 gr. of 2400 under 160-170 gr. bullets in both .30-30 and .30-06. Zero needs to be raised about 7" higher at 100 yards with the .30-06, but very little recoil. Negligible at best. Hearing protection is still a must; tried it without once. Stupid.

Joe, the ID of your case mouths won't tell you anything; the rifling is just starting to constrict in front of your bullet's tip!

tdoor · Post by **tdoor** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:58 am

J Miller wrote:
JReed wrote:In .303brit the 200gr + bullets were very popular for large game. The Enfields had a 1:10 twist so no problems with the bigger pills. For most hunting situations the heavy slugs would hit harder in the 30 bores as long as they are capable of performing at the lower speeds brought about by decreased case capacity. Same reason the .45 and .50 cal BP cartridges used heavy bullets they hit hard and penetrated deeply.

I would look long and hard for a mold that would throw a .215gr or greater bullet easy for the .30cal not so easy for the .303 but they are out there. Then I would work up a load based on the velocity you are looking for.

Montana bullet works has some that are 200grn might be worth playing with. http://www.montanabulletworks.com/wst_page5.html
A cast bullet would have to be a specialty mold for sure. My rifle has a .317" grove diameter. Not sure how smaller bullets would work in it.

Joe

Hi Joe-

Paper patching might be an (although tedious) easy way to experiment if you only have undersized bullets at your disposal. Years ago I tried it on a 7mm Chilean Mauser with cast bullets (bore was greater than today's standard .284, probably about .289 although I am working from memory here); Although the load I experimented with was mildly super sonic, I was able to get 100 yards groups in the 2-3" range wheareas before they resembled a tight shot gun pattern

tdoor

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:03 pm

Travis Morgan wrote:
Joe, the ID of your case mouths won't tell you anything; the rifling is just starting to constrict in front of your bullet's tip!

Travis,
True if the bullet has a good percentage of the body at .321". However, the bullets I am sending Joe have two driving bands that will fit nicely into the case neck with the long nose riding on top of the lands.

w30wcf

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:12 pm

Gotta watch them Bore Riders... gettin all long nosed and uppity...

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:37 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:Gotta watch them Bore Riders... gettin all long nosed and uppity...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:50 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:Gotta watch them Bore Riders... gettin all long nosed and uppity...

that's seriously funny

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:24 am

........reminds me of McManus' book, "Real ponies don't go "Oink""!