Question for you Winchester 1894 experts....authentication

[jdad]

Local shop has a deluxe 1894. 24" half octagon, button mag, with a Lyman #21 sight covering the left side of the receiver, 32 WS, rifle buttplate. Serial number is 335xxx, so it dates to 1905. It's in 90% plus condition, with normal wear under the receiver, a rub mark on the barrel , a few dings in the wood (all the finish is still there), but something doesn't look right.

Here is what puzzles me.
1. It has matching proof marks on the barrel and receiver, but Winchester did not start this until 1908.
2. The barrel is 24" instead of the standard 26".
3. I did not see "Model 1894" anywhere on the barrel.

Fake, real, or rebuilt? What is a fair price, in today's market?

I get first rights of refusal tomorrow, so any info will be helpful.

Thanks

[Hobie]

The receiver dates to 1905 but have you seen the bottom of the barrel? The receiver COULD have set in a "bin" until 1908. What type of front sight and how far back from the muzzle? What are the barrel markings?

[jdad]

Near the receiver end of the barrel it said something like "special smokeless steel...." It was a 2 line stamp. The barrel just had the fine lettering and nothing about model.

[pokey]

the front sight dovetail should be 1 1/16" from muzzle.the rear sight dovetail should be 4 23/32" from the receiver.
the barrel address should read,

manufactured by the winchester repeating arms co.
-new haven, conn.u.s.a.pat.aug.21.1894-

ahead of receiver on the left side of barrel should read,


model 94-winchster-nickel steel-
-trade mark-

[Hobie]

Madis says that early barrels were marked on the top far forward, then on the left side and just before 500,000 much closer to the breech. The correct marking "should" read

MANUFACTURED BY THE WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS. CO.
- NEW HAVEN, CONN. U.S.A. PAT AUG. 21, 1894 -

In 1907 around serial 374,000 there was an error and the patent date reads "August 14, 1894"

It might be correct and read:

MANUFACTURED BY THE WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS. CO.
NEW HAVEN, CONN. U.S.A. PATENTED AUGUST 21, 1894

Different dies were used and were recut up to 10 times! Is it marked

NICKEL STEEL BARREL
ESPECIALLY FOR SMOKELESS POWDER

?

There was a stamp

EXTRA STEEL BARREL
ESPECIALLY FOR SMOKELESS POWDER

these are not the nickel steel barrels. They eroded too rapidly and Winchester returned to the nickel steel.

Madis shows one gun with the proof on receiver ring and barrel. It is the only photo of that part of the gun!

[pokey]

in that serial range the barrel should have the pw in oval proof ahead of receiver ring also.

[jdad]

Hobie,
If my grey matter processor remembers correctly it does say "Nickel Steel....."

How much should I expect to pay for a deluxe, with this many special features and in 90-93% condition?

[pokey]

there are a couple of special order 94s going off soon on gun broker, both just under 2k.

[Sixgun]

You say its a deluxe. This means a checkered stock with a pistol grip. 90% condition? 5 special order items? If its "right", go buy it and I'll give you 3 g's for it. Its worth more-----------Sixgun

[jdad]

You say its a deluxe. This means a checkered stock with a pistol grip. 90% condition? 5 special order items? If its "right", go buy it and I'll give you 3 g's for it. Its worth more-----------Sixgun

Checkered pistol grip(with correct grip cap), checkered forearm, rifle butt plate, 24" half octagon, button mag, Lyman 21 receiver sight, some type of blank (with screw) in the rear dovetail, and an ivory bead front sight (Lyman #2 or #3).

I hope the price is fair and it's original. If I do buy it I will ask if it doesn't letter can I return it.

[Malamute]

The model number on the earlier guns was on the upper tang behind the hammer. Model markings on barrels came later, with some crossover of tang markings and barrel markings both used for a while. I just looked at a 1921 carbine that didnt have the model on the barrel. By 1927 they did.


The gun not only could have had the receiver sit in the bin until it was finish built, or could have been returned to the factory to be reworked. The 24" barrel length is not a big issue, standard was 26" for rifles, but any length could be special ordered at that time. Does it look like it was cut, or look right at the muzzle? The factory didnt crown them much if at all at that point on rifles.

[jdad]

The model number on the earlier guns was on the upper tang behind the hammer. Model markings on barrels came later, with some crossover of tang markings and barrel markings both used for a while. I just looked at a 1921 carbine that didnt have the model on the barrel. By 1927 they did.


The gun not only could have had the receiver sit in the bin until it was finish built, or could have been returned to the factory to be reworked. The 24" barrel length is not a big issue, standard was 26" for rifles, but any length could be special ordered at that time. Does it look like it was cut, or look right at the muzzle? The factory didnt crown them much if at all at that point on rifles.

Muzzle is clean cut and in the "white".

[Mike D.]

Aahh, I see that 'ol Sixgun woke up and beat me to the punch. That gun could very well have been proof marked on both receiver and barrel at the time of manufacture, since most all guns numbered in excess of 350,000 were so marked. Your gun is very close to that "line". Also, there would be no model designation on the barrel. That wasn't seen until very late in the 1894s production. All .30WCF and .32WS barrels were marked "nickel steel, especially for smokeless powder" on the left side, below the rear sight.

[Sixgun]

Yo Mike,
From now on, I'm gonna tell guys these nice Winchesters they keep finding are only worth a couple of hundred

I saw a real nice deluxe '94 the other day in 30 WCF. The guy want 5 g's for it!---ouch. But on the other hand, it was not all that long ago that nice deluxe '94's were bring 3-----------Sixgun

[Mike D.]

Shoot, it wasn't THAT long ago that Deluxe 1886s were bringing 3 Gs. I can remember passing on a Deluxe LTWT TD .45-90 at $4200 four years ago. Not a mint gun by any stretch, but a clean well cared for piece. My letting that one get away was serious mistake. I don't collect '94s, per se, so my only reason to pick one up would be as a trader. I could make an exception for a nice, late .32-40 or .38-55, though.

[kimwcook]

That's why sixgun and Mike D. are so skinny. They spend all their money on rifles. I've gotta fuel the machine guys. Talking thousands of dollars for rifles like it was chump change. All I can do is wish and dream of rifles like that.

[Pete44ru]

It sounds like a pretty nice piece, anyway.

Button mag ? My fave !
I seem to recall that only about 10% of all Winchester 94 leverguns had other than a full-length mag.

.

[ArcticGoose]

I have a couple 94's that are similar to the one you describe. The barrel length, while special order for an earlier gun is not unheard of. As usual, Sixgun and Mike D are right on with their advice. These guns have gone through the roof. It's getting to the point I can't afford to buy old Winchesters anymore. Can't wait to see a picture of it!

[jdad]

It's on layaway. I'll have it in 2 weeks. I've already ordered the factory letter, from Cody.

[GEOFF]

Congrats Jdad,

I think you need to send a couple of old Marlins my way to help fund this new acquisition!!!

I need an 1893 that's as nice as that 39A I bought from you a while back!!! Seriously, keep an eye out for a smokeless 1893 for me, in .30-30 or .32Special.

Can't wait to see pics of this 1894!! Again, congratulations!!

Geoff

[jdad]

Congrats Jdad,

I think you need to send a couple of old Marlins my way to help fund this new acquisition!!!

I need an 1893 that's as nice as that 39A I bought from you a while back!!! Seriously, keep an eye out for a smokeless 1893 for me, in .30-30 or .32Special.

Can't wait to see pics of this 1894!! Again, congratulations!!

Geoff

Well I do have a Deluxe 1893 Takedown chambered in 30-30, with half octagon barrel, half mag, and a Hepburn receiver sight. Eventually I get bored with that and pass it on to someone.

[DerekR]

I look forward to seeing pics of your rifle J. I have an old 1894 .32WS that is just a few numbers lower than yours. Mine is a SRC and the only special order item is the smooth metal shotgun buttplate. It does have the Lyman 21 also. It seems that the Lyman 21s show up on a fair number of old .32WS. My guess is the range of elevation was nice if you reloaded with holy black. Love them old 1894s!

Derek