.357 Max in a single shot, but wait...

[awp101]

OK, in my Cadet thread someone suggested going .357 Max instead of Mag so I could shoot Max, Mag and Special loads. I've been kicking around the idea of getting a .357 barrel for my Handi and reaming it to Max but based on an incident last summer I have questions.

I took my Win94 Legacy in .44 Mag to last summer's Summer Safari. I had sighted in both Mag and Special (Grizzly Ammo) loads at 25yds for a variety of reasons. Both grouped well at that range. When it came time for the hunt, all I had on hand were the Special loads due to a lack of planning on my part. At the ranch I found out at 75yds the Specials would pattern at best. I had to crank over a foot of elevation into the scope and even then there was no consistency and no guarantee of even hitting paper.

86er and RKrodle contacted Grizzly that evening to ask about it and Mike mentioned the 0.10" deeper chamber of the Mag might be playing havoc with the velocities giving erratic accuracy. It's not a problem in a revolver but in a rifle it seems to make a difference.

My question now is, what's to keep that from happening with ANY rifle chambered for a Max or Mag and using the shorter cousins?

[mescalero1]

You will most likely experience the same problem.

[Hobie]

I have a Max barrel for my Contender. I think such problems depend on a number of variables some of which will exacerbate the condition, others will mitigate it. I have shot .38 Special cast bullet loads that grouped very well at 50 yards and were very quiet and some that wouldn't stay on a paper plate at 25 yards. EVERY GUN IS DIFFERENT. The relationship between bullet and the internal dimensions of a particular barrel are critical. If you aren't a handloader you aren't going to have control of such things.

[Thunder50]

Never shot 357' mags or 38 specials in my Max, but I do know that the difference between light load and full bore Max loads can mean 2-3 feet difference in impact at 100yds.

[Tycer]

Cast bullets prefer to be right on the lands. Often, any jump to the lands allows them to cant in the chamber, shearing one side and destroying accuracy.

[Rusty]

Check out all the threads over on Graybeards. They've done a lot of shootin with them there in the Handi rifles. There's been talk of late of people having a hard time finding Max brass as well.

I don't recall anyone ever having a problem with jumping the gap. I guess it could be if you were expecting MOA accuracy with .38's in a Max chamber.

I've been thinking about it myself and I'm not sure anything more than the Mag. with a 180 grain cast is needed. Look at Paco's article on the .357 out of a rifle and see what you think.
My son just placed articles he had printed out by Jim Taylor and John Taffin as well. I'm thinking that for my area the Mag would be enough.

[Lefty Dude]

Cast bullets prefer to be right on the lands. Often, any jump to the lands allows them to cant in the chamber, shearing one side and destroying accuracy.

How about a revolver, you have the cylinder Gap. ?

[Hobie]

Check out all the threads over on Graybeards. They've done a lot of shootin with them there in the Handi rifles. There's been talk of late of people having a hard time finding Max brass as well.

I don't recall anyone ever having a problem with jumping the gap. I guess it could be if you were expecting MOA accuracy with .38's in a Max chamber.

I've been thinking about it myself and I'm not sure anything more than the Mag. with a 180 grain cast is needed. Look at Paco's article on the .357 out of a rifle and see what you think.
My son just placed articles he had printed out by Jim Taylor and John Taffin as well. I'm thinking that for my area the Mag would be enough.

Rusty,

I think you're right. The .357 Mag is enough. However, it isn't a Max. The Max approaches the .35 Rem performance (and surpasses some .35 Rem factory loads). The Max will move 180 gr. 100-200 fps faster than the mag will move 158 gr. and will move 200 gr. as fast as the 158s from the Mag.

[AJMD429]

I think you're right. The .357 Mag is enough. However, it isn't a Max. The Max approaches the .35 Rem performance (and surpasses some .35 Rem factory loads). The Max will move 180 gr. 100-200 fps faster than the mag will move 158 gr. and will move 200 gr. as fast as the 158s from the Mag.

Hobie, what do you think of the idea that people say "If you want .357 Maximum performance but don't mind a long-action gun, just get a .35 Remington, and if you want it out of a short-action carbine, get a .44 Mag and re-barrel it for .357 Bain & Davis? That makes some sense to me.

I already have a .357 Maximum in a Contender pistol, but when I decided I wanted to get a 'similar' levergun, the prices and reliability issues for conversions stalled me out, and I stumbled on a Marlin 336 in .35 Remington. I don't mind 'long, heavy' guns, so I'm happy now ( ) - but THEN I heard about the .357 Bain & Davis described as ".357 Max performance out of anything that can feed a .44 Magnum" - sounds kinda' cool...

[Sixgun]

The reason the Grizzly ammo did not shoot was because of the bullet fit to the throat. Almost anything will shoot good at short range but like Elmer Keith said, "The true test of ammo and gun are when they are shot at long range".

That 1/10" of an inch jump is just an excuse from Grizzly. I have an original 1878 Sharps that was chambered for the 45-70-550 round. My gun only shoots 400 grainers--That bullet jumps 5/8" of an inch. (one of many experiences in the last 35 years or so) So...........if your chamber is reamed to perfectly match the rifling, the cases are sized to that chamber, with no slop, and the bullet enters the throat the way it should, the bullet is correctly sized, the rifling twist is correct for the bullet, then that bullet will hit what you want out to any reasonable range. Its all mechanics.

But I will agree with the others who said, go ahead and rechamber for the 35 Rem. round if you think you need more velocity. I would be happy with the 357 round, load it "right" and place the bullet "right"------------------Sixgun

[Tycer]

Cast bullets prefer to be right on the lands. Often, any jump to the lands allows them to cant in the chamber, shearing one side and destroying accuracy.

How about a revolver, you have the cylinder Gap. ?

The gap is only ~.050". I think the fact that the forcing cone has to be so large to accommodate cylinder slop would be more detrimental to accuracy with cast bullets than the gap. The forcing cones on my Smiths run about .025" larger than groove diameter, and the cylinder on a couple of them won't let me chamber a cast bullet .002" over groove, so cast bullets are very inaccuate in those. The Dan Wesson I used to have was really great with cast, but still not rifle accurate. At 25yds I'd expect any rifle in a vise should outshoot most any revolver.

[Hobie]

I think you're right. The .357 Mag is enough. However, it isn't a Max. The Max approaches the .35 Rem performance (and surpasses some .35 Rem factory loads). The Max will move 180 gr. 100-200 fps faster than the mag will move 158 gr. and will move 200 gr. as fast as the 158s from the Mag.

Hobie, what do you think of the idea that people say "If you want .357 Maximum performance but don't mind a long-action gun, just get a .35 Remington, and if you want it out of a short-action carbine, get a .44 Mag and re-barrel it for .357 Bain & Davis? That makes some sense to me.

I already have a .357 Maximum in a Contender pistol, but when I decided I wanted to get a 'similar' levergun, the prices and reliability issues for conversions stalled me out, and I stumbled on a Marlin 336 in .35 Remington. I don't mind 'long, heavy' guns, so I'm happy now ( ) - but THEN I heard about the .357 Bain & Davis described as ".357 Max performance out of anything that can feed a .44 Magnum" - sounds kinda' cool...

I am one of those people that say that. I have a .357 Mag rifle and 3 .35 Rem rifles as well as the .357 Max. At the moment, a custom .357 B&D seems less practical than a .35 Rem 336 without paper but that won't stop a real "loony".

[sharps54]

I haven't done much load development (heck I haven't shot it since I moved to VA in 2006) but I have a 6.5" Blackhawk with a .357/44 B&D cylinder. When you look at .357 Max and .357/44 B&D on paper I don't see any reason to go with a Max unless you have the reamer or buy a factory barrel. If you have to get a reamer anyway the B&D gives better performance and 44 brass is a lot more common than Max brass.

Hobie, if you have somewhere we can shoot and a chrono maybe we can get together sometime and see what kind of loads we can work up out of this wheelgun...

ETA I guess cost of reloading dies favors the Max as well but since I already have ones for the B&D I'm biased.

[awp101]

Thanks, I suspected it might cause a problem but I see it's more of a diameter issue rather than the case length.

[Thunder50]

I like the Max over the 35 Rem (have 2 rifles & 2 pistols in 35 Rem) is that I can use carbide dies. With my Max, I can get 2380 fps out of a 180 cast,180 SSP or the 200gr FTX, using Lil Gun powder with good accuracy with the two jacketed bullets (1.5" @100yds, but only 2.25"@100 with the cast). It other words, I beat Hornadys Leverevolution ammo for the 35 Rem, by 150fps. Bear in mind that this is out of a Ruger #1 using a custom reamer. Way too hot for any other gun, I suspect.

[Hobie]

I like the Max over the 35 Rem (have 2 rifles & 2 pistols in 35 Rem) is that I can use carbide dies. With my Max, I can get 2380 fps out of a 180 cast,180 SSP or the 200gr FTX, using Lil Gun powder with good accuracy with the two jacketed bullets (1.5" @100yds, but only 2.25"@100 with the cast). It other words, I beat Hornadys Leverevolution ammo for the 35 Rem, by 150fps. Bear in mind that this is out of a Ruger #1 using a custom reamer. Way too hot for any other gun, I suspect.

Yes, too hot for the Contender for certain. Using carbide dies IS a big plus for the Max.