100-Year-Old Winchester 94

[ReadyontheRight]

Hello! New member here. Old member at Thehighroad, THR.us and Thefiringline. I was sent here after a recent purchase.

I just picked up a 100-year-old Winchester 94. $171 from the Frontiersman in St. Louis Park, MN. Serial number 491XXX in 30 WCF caliber (30-30). I believe it's from 1909, but there is apparently some dispute over the accuracy of online Winchester serial number look-up websites.

The stocks are beat up and there is some sort of filler on the top of where the front handguard meets the receiver. Ugly padded buttpad has been added. I will be looking for new wood for this rifle.

The metal is in very good shape for a gun that's been around for 100 deer seasons. There's obvious scratches and wear, but nothing too bad. The front sight is tiny - I assume that's the way they were made back then. The bore is shiny and the action is fairly solid and smooth - although full of gunk, so it should be much better after a cleaning and oiling.

Apparently is has a new barrel and a cut-off magazine. I plan to start by taking off the U-G-L-Y buttpad and putting on a period-correct steel buttpad. I am not sure about replacing the saddle ring (which has been cut off). I might eventually change out the sights, change wood and put a full magazine on to be more period correct, but I will only do it cheaply. It's a shooter.

I would appreciate any insight or ideas to make this a GREAT rifle.

What do ya say, is it the new Bluesrifle or what?

[flatfender]

You done good. I like it.

[Tycer]

I'd give it a bath and go shoot it first. Winchester proof steel barrel is good for jacketed or cast. For appearances, you could get a longer used mag tube or cut the barrel and recrown, or get a rifle forearm and cap and do a button or 3/4 mag. The wood could stand to be replaced. It's all ready for a tang sight.

Very nice. Looking forward to a range report and future pics!!

[J Miller]

ReadyontheRight,

Welcome to the forum.

Well now, here's my "If it were mine" comments:

If it were mine I'd -
Replace the wood
Replace the magazine tube
Replace the front and rear sights
Clean it thoroughly, check for worn internal parts replacing them as needed
Go shoot it.

>The barrel has been replaced and there is zero collector value to it, so there is no reason to worry about "period" correctness.
>The buck horn rear sight has been dehorned, it's still a good sight, just looks ugly to me.
>The front sight would probably be too short, but it's only a blade in the ramp, easily replaceable with what ever type you want.
>The wood, yuck, maybe a magician could fix it, but I'd suggest a complete replacement set. Brownells has replacement wood in their current catalog.
>The magazine tube should be the same length as the barrel, well, maybe a 1/8" less or so, but that one looks plum ugly like that.
>The saddle ring, yes, I'd replace it. I'm the outcast here as I like them.

That's it, that's all I'd do to it.

Joe

[Griff]

IMO, what you have is a "parts" gun. That's not in & of itself, a bad thing; (I have a few & some in progress). But you certainly need to check it closely for proper fit & assembly BEFORE you go off to the range w/it.

Please don't take offense, but if not for your benefit, maybe some else viewing can learn. 1st and foremost get it checked for proper headspace. Being as that barrel is of much later vintage & off a 94 of unknown configuration than the action, and... is it longer than 20" from the breech to the muzzle? Certainly 'pears so. Whether it is or not, how is the magazine cap anchored into the barrel. Should be a hole in the bottom of the barrel for the shank of the screw extending thru the mag cap. Is there 2? (1- at its current location & 1 just behind the muzzle or ?) If not, pull the forend and see if there's a fairly narrow dovetail hdden under the wood. If there is a mag plug screw hole directly aft & below the muzzle, pull front band and check the bottom of the barrel to make sure it's relieved for the front band screw? (Small "U" shaped channel, there'll be a corresponding cut in the mag tube). That wood... well, I don't need to mention it, you're already relacin' i... a guy could get hurt trying to re-use it. Several reasonable & not so reasonable options on replacement wood,

Well, I could go on, but that'll give ya some pointers. I'll give you some links on stuff when I'm not hurtling down the freeway if you're interested. Welcome to the Forum. Excellent 1st post... but then, I love project guns!

[Travis Morgan]

Throw it away. THIS way!

[Ysabel Kid]

Welcome aboard. Great way to start the posting too - with cool pictures!!!

[ReadyontheRight]

So that stuff on the forestock isn't official Winchester Gun Bondo?

Yes - The wood needs replacing. I plan to leave it on for my first range session (might be a while, -20 degrees tonight in Minneapolis - without wind chill) and probably a while longer.

At least I don't have to worry about damaging the wood when I clean it. I will probably damage the wood if I try to disassemble, so I will wait for "bondo separation" until I find a deal on new stocks.

I will probably then cut this buttstock down to switch out for eventual use by my kids. Please let me know if there is any reason not to.

Good point about the headspacing. I know how to do it on a Garand (well...kind of. I don't have the gauges). Is 94 headspacing something any gun shop or gunsmith can do?

Thanks for all the responses and the warm welcome guys. I think this will be a fun, long-term project.

[Malamute]

Hey Ready, you made it over, welcome.

It's good advice to check the headspace, however, even if it's out a bit, it isnt catastrophic (PO Ackley has pics of a 94 he shot with the locking bolt removed, the bolt didnt go anywhere). If it were me, I'd go shoot it a few rounds and see what it does. Even guns that are in spec or very close often back primers out a little bit. The issue is more of a low pressure round that doesnt back the base of the shell against the breech face to reseat the primer. A good quarter or more of the 94's I've had or shot have backed primers out a little, even guns that looked like new.

You should be OK to keep the stock and cut it down for kids use, so long as there arent any bad cracks in it. You could likley repair the cracks also. The replacement stock type you need is pre-war type, (I'm not exactly sure of the year they changed, but 1950's 94's had the same type butt stock inletting as post-64's, so just saying "pre-64" won't get you exactly what you need as far as butt stock fitting. A later stock will go on the gun, but the inletting on the upper tang next to the hammer will have a gap when installed on your gun.

With the ramp sighted barrel you have, a standard later model 94 mag tube should drop in, as far as screw clearance cuts go. I believe the barrel has always been a carbine barrel. The length and front sight ramp are typical later carbine type. The caliber marking and ramp front sight put it somewhere around the war years (WWII) I believe. If you take the mag tube and fore end off, there should be a year stamped on the underside that will indicate what year the barrel was made.


Good luck with your project. And dont be surprised if it shoots much better than you expect. A little tinkering with various make ammo or weights of bullets may surprise you.

[HATCHETTJACK]

i need a new boat anchor

[JReed]

Welcome aboard.
What a great project gun you picked up.

[ReadyontheRight]

i need a new boat anchor

$300 and it's yours. A genuine Winchester 94 boat anchor. Pre-64. Pre-War. Pre-The Other War. Heck..it's Pre-Talking-Motion-Picture!

I will need the address of your FBL. And an original copy of his Federal Boat License signed in fish blood. Remember - Boats don't drown people. Water drowns people.

Heck, I'll even duct-tape on...uh..I mean MOUNT...a genuine #4 Super Hooker anchor to the top of the receiver for that extra bit of grab. I really prefer the #4 Super Hookers on those old 94s over the 3x9x40 Leupolds. They don't look so top-heavy. And much cheaper!

Just let me know when you're done fishing this summer. I'll dredge it out of the muck and piece it back together for deer season.

There's nothing a little Winchester bondo and WD-40 can't fix.

[kimwcook]

Welcome to the forum. Nice first post, you posted pictures!

[KirkD]

Welcome to the forum. Regarding the saddle ring, that receiver does not show any sign of ever having one, so far as I can see. If it had one, there should be a big hole in the left back side of the receiver, or a sawed-off plug. I see neither.

[awp101]

What do ya say, is it the new Bluesrifle or what?

Depends. Did you trade a microphone for it?

Welcome and nice score!

[Malamute]

Kirk, the pics he posted on THR were in higher def, and you could see the filler screw in the saddle ring hole better.

[Gun Smith]

No money headspace gauge. Find some heating/ac type metal duct tape. Stick a piece unto the base of an EMPTY 30/30 case. Trim around the base with a razor blade. Keep adding layers of tape and test fitting it in the chamber until the bolt just barely closes on the case. Carefully peel the tape off the base and measure the thickness of the tape. This will give you the maximun headspace on the gun. Remember this is a somewhat crude way to measure the headspace, but it will give you an idea of what you've got. I DON'T remember what the maximun should be.

[KirkD]

Kirk, the pics he posted on THR were in higher def, and you could see the filler screw in the saddle ring hole better.

By gum! These old eyes of mine don't seem to be giving me good information lately. I wonder if I'll still be able to use open iron sights come springtime.

[RIHMFIRE]

Thats a great project gun...
The guys around hear will be happy
to lead you in the right direstion to find
parts, stocks, etc...
and welcome.....

[HATCHETTJACK]

i need a new boat anchor

$300 and it's yours. A genuine Winchester 94 boat anchor. Pre-64. Pre-War. Pre-The Other War. Heck..it's Pre-Talking-Motion-Picture!

I will need the address of your FBL. And an original copy of his Federal Boat License signed in fish blood. Remember - Boats don't drown people. Water drowns people.

Heck, I'll even duct-tape on...uh..I mean MOUNT...a genuine #4 Super Hooker anchor to the top of the receiver for that extra bit of grab. I really prefer the #4 Super Hookers on those old 94s over the 3x9x40 Leupolds. They don't look so top-heavy. And much cheaper!

Just let me know when you're done fishing this summer. I'll dredge it out of the muck and piece it back together for deer season.

There's nothing a little Winchester bondo and WD-40 can't fix.

just messin with ya, figured i would get you fired up and we would see the finished product sooner

[ReadyontheRight]

just messin with ya, figured i would get you fired up and we would see the finished product sooner

Yeah, I know.. Good one!

I could use some advice on the sights. Now that I know they are not correct, I would like to change the sights.

What did the front site look like on early 94s? I picture a tall, skinny blade sight like a 1903 Springfield - (which is also what I would like). Does anyone have pics of the correct site and where can I get one?

How do I remove the old front sight and install a new one? I have only done it on a Remington rifle where I just drifed in a tru-glow sight into a dovetail. This looks more complicated.

I will most likely save up and get a tang-mounted rear peep sight eventually, so I will leave that for now.

[J Miller]

The front sight on a ramp like that is usually a .360" tall or there abouts bead sight.
It's best to use a front sight pusher tool to remove and install the sights. However by putting the ramp against a solid support you can drive the sight out with a punch and hammer. Remove them from L to R as you look down the barrel at a target.

A nice looking and somewhat period correct set of sights can be had from Marbles or Lyman.

Joe

[Malamute]

The period correct front sight for your gun is a small stud type base with a steel or nickle silver blade pinned into it, and the front band much closer to the muzzle. The ramp you have is from the 30's and later. The standard rear sight for early carbines was called a "leaf" sight, commonly called a ladder sight with a sliding leaf and a folding portion that raises. The sights were very short and they had the rear sight dovetail slot much closer to the receiver. The rear sight you have looks like a nice early rifle sight, (the grooves on the sides being an earlier type)it was a semi-buckhorn style, and has been filed down flat on top in the "express" style. Actually, a better sight than the early carbine sights, and the flat top is faster and easier to use for most of us. Original early carbine leaf sights sell for $200 and up, repros are about $100 I believe.

I don't have any pics of either front or rear sights handy.

Kirk D has a nice early type carbine in 38-55 cal, if he shows up, perhaps he can post a pic of his to give you an idea. The stock was different too, with a curved buttplate that wrapped around the top of the stock, and a flat place along the top edge.

[KirkD]

Here are a few photos of the carbine Malamute mentioned. It is a model 1894 Winchester 38-55 saddle ring carbine, made in 1907 ....



The saddle ring .....



The front sight (post with a slot in which is inserted a blade, held in place with a pin that goes through slot and post. Funny how I didn't notice the crud around the base of the front sight until after I took the photo! ) ....



The buttplate (note the flat top on the buttplate and stock) .....

[Griff]

Reproductions sights are available:

Rear: http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4484.html

Although I'm not sure it would be a correct front sight on a carbine for that era, this copy would correct on a rifle of that era (my 1910 26" rifle wears one) and quite similar to front sights on earlier carbines and some of the shorter "trapper models (except for the screw). Not sure if it has enough height:
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4422.html

On my Trapper:

For that wood:
buttstock & forend: SCR pre-64, pre-war (uses curved steel buttplate as pictured by KirkD): http://www.gunstocksinc.com/web_pages/P ... stock.html

I've found the steel buttplate for this style buttstock on EBay and a couple of other sources, (none are showing it available right now).

When you start looking for that saddle ring, be aware that Winchester used two different thread sizes on the studs, (I forget which was the early and which was late, but you're looking for the early size).

[Old Savage]

You betcha ELWOOD.

[Travis Morgan]

KirkD,

You need to slap some Ray Holes Saddle Butter on that old saddle, ASAP. Once you get it, get ahold of me, and I'll give you some particulars on how to get the most out of it.