Marlin 1895G 45-70 - Deer - Barnes 250gr?

[JohndeFresno]

This is the place to go to for excellent posts from the pros and semi-pros for hunting load info. So -

I'm now working on a Barnes (copper) handload for deer and hogs for my beloved 1895 Guide Gun. As stated by several, my current planned loads amount to nil in my part of the world right now, so I have to rely on a cupric projectile.

Barnes offers the choice of 250 and 300 gr. for their TSX Flatnose. It looks to me like the 250 grainer would be quite sufficient, with the benefit of a very flat trajectory.

Based upon tables stored in the QuickLoad program, a relatively mild 1895 Marlin load of 48.0 gr. Hodgdon H4198, for instance, looks to be around 93.8% case fill, running somewhere in the neighborhood of 2091 fps at muzzle and perhaps some 1300 fps at 150 yards with only 4 inches drop if zeroed at 100 yards.

Earlier, one of our posters (sobenk?) had contacted Barnes and learned that their .30-30 bullet opens up at around 1400 fps; but I don't yet know what the .458 caliber requires.

With all of this in mind, has anybody taken a deer or piggy with the 250 grain TSX (not the 300 grain load, the lighter load)? I am looking at a .45 caliber bullet hitting at something like 1,300 fps at the farthest end of my intended range for this firearm. It seems to me that this is enough to drop any medium sized game.

But does it tear up too much meat at closer ranges?

I don't care to experiment on some poor critter when somebody has surely already been there.

Thanks in advance for your experiences and input!

[Mike D.]

I have loaded 20 rds of the 300 gr TSXs, but haven't had the chance to test them out. At a buck a pop, they won't be wasted for target practice, though. I might roll a pig or two next month to see how they work, if I get time to go down to the ranch. Of couse, I'll be shooting a Winchester .45-70, Starline Brass, WW primers and 55 grs XMR2015. This load produces a consistent 2300 FPS with 300 Barnes originals, so the slick CU should be faster. I have used my 95 '06 and the 168 TSX, finding that the all CU bullets strike nearly 8" higher at 100 yds. This also happened with my scoped bolt gun so it wasn't a fluke.

[JohndeFresno]

Thanks, Mike. I'm almost completely decided upon the lighter round for stability reasons and owing to the moderate size of the game. But I will be interested to see what happens.

[gary rice]

Thanks, Mike. I'm almost completely decided upon the lighter round for stability reasons and owing to the moderate size of the game. But I will be interested to see what happens.

John, is your guide gun scoped? The reason im asking is that if not you might have a devil of a time getting barnes bullets in that caliber to print low enough at 100-150 yardswith iron sights. This is my main complaint about the tsx bullets in 45-70. May be though that your gun will do better than mine as i actually ran out of room on my rear sight, lowered it until it almost fell off and still shot too high. Im supposed to go pig hunting this month and of course I have no choice but to use the tsx's.

[JohndeFresno]

John, is your guide gun scoped? ...you might have a devil of a time getting barnes bullets in that caliber to print low enough at 100-150 yardswith iron sights...

I remember our backchannel conversation, Gary. That's why I'm interested in seeing what anybody else has done. I hate to add a sighting device of any kind to the rifle, but I may have to if I am going to even carry it in my area. I really hate to give up on using the great little guide gun.

[Mike D.]

I have Lyman #21 sights on a couple of my guns and #56 on others. I was able to lower those sights enough to get the bullets to print 3" high at 100 yds, which is fine with me. That will put the 300 grainers "on target" to 250 yds, what I consider the extreme outer range of that bullet. Like you said, John, larger bullets are not needed for the light skinned local 4 leggers. Pigs aren't "magical" creatures" and lighter bullets will do 'em in just as well as heavier ones will.

[JohndeFresno]

Mike,

That is a great suggestion. It may be the option that we are both looking for - thanks!

[86er]

John: I have a client in Ione that has experimented extensively with the 250g and 300g Barnes out of the same necessity you have. I left him a message when you posted this and finally heard back. These are his comments, not mine. He gave me some load data too but you better confirm they're safe first! I'm not sure what he's talking about in some of it and I don't know if it helps but at least it's an opinion from someone actually using those bullets in the field. Does anyone know what a WWGCP is?

"Joe:
I thought the flat trajectory of the 250 was attractive and after all who needs more than that for deer, bear and Tule elk. I can get them pretty fast up to 2555 in the WWGCP. I tried to sight in at 200 but that made 100 5 or 6 too much. I ended up putting it 3 high at 100 and its on at something like 170. The 300s go up to 2400. When I tried both at the long range the 300 was more accurate in that it made a smaller group everything else being the same. The 250s are easier to get in the case when you load them because they are pretty full of powder and the 300 takes up more room. I shot two of our BT deer, two boar and one black bear with the 250s. The deer and boar were all 100 away. They each got one shot and two went through and two didn't. The bear was 75 out on a hill and when I shot him he ran down the hill in the open where I shot him 4 more times out of 5 remaining that I shot. At the bottom he ran into the trees but when we found him he was dead. The bear I shot in Washington was with the 300. You saw that one. It was 35 from a tree stand. It ran 50 or so but was dead and the bullet went through. I shot this years deer with the 300 and the tule elk. The elk took 3 shots but I think the bullets broke the petals off since we found some petals inside but there was a 45 caliber hole on the in and out holes. My brothers boar with the 300 broke the petals off too. Tell your friend he can get 2500 feet with VN120 50 grains or 2400 with IMR4198 48.5grains shoved down. Barnes has a reloading manual but they'll tell you the load over the phone if you call them. If I had to pick I'd get the 300 since it is more accurate and gets a better group when we shot 200 and it drops less at 200 too. If you ever get something else unleaded let me know so I can try it up here. Regards. Shinnie."

[CEMENTHEAD]

86er,
WWGCP is short for Wild West Guns Co-Pilot. Hope this helps, Thanks, Tom

[Mike D.]

If the Co-Pilot can handle those loads, any 1895, nee 336 Marlin, or 1886 will do likewise. The '86 will do those strain free, and probably more. The amount of powder that you can get into the csae is the only issue.

[JohndeFresno]

...
"Joe:
I thought the flat trajectory of the 250 was attractive and after all who needs more than that for deer, bear and Tule elk. I can get them pretty fast up to 2555 in the WWGCP. I tried to sight in at 200 but that made 100 5 or 6 too much... I'd get the 300 since it is more accurate and gets a better group when we shot 200 and it drops less at 200 too.... Regards. Shinnie."

Thanks for all the help CementHead, 86er and MikeD. I was leaning heavily towards the lighter of the two rounds; but field experience always works best for me.

Reading Shinnie's post a second time, he's using yards and inch drop, e.g. "that made 100 5 or 6 to much" meaning "that made 100 5 or 6 inches high - too much;" and so on. So it all comes together.

For instance, I verified his load of IMR 4198 at 48.5 gr. against the QuickLoad program and then ran Quick Target to run up the trajectory using a 200 yard zero with the velocity produced (2147 fps per QL). It showed, indeed, a trajectory of +5.4 in. at 100 yards; that all makes sense.

Since I'd want reliable penetration, it appears that the 250 with its great trajectory does not always penetrate game, per Shinnie's experience. So I guess I should order the 300 grainers. Here's another good example of following the wisdom and accepted practices of many hunters before us when it comes to choosing a heavier load for a grand old cartridge.

And I will probably settle upon a much milder load, even after working up the recipe. These '95's are pretty tough rifles, but QuickLoad (again) suggests a more modest load in order to stay below the 40,000 psi limit that I believe is suggested for the Marlin .45-70 levergun.

So far, the software has made some surprisingly accurate predictions of velocities and trajectory when I have checked the results against my chronographed strings; and I'm not really interested in pushing the envelope. I'll leave that to folks of more means who can afford to replace their firearms.

QL shows a 44.0 gr. load of H 4198 reaching a pressure of 38,669 psi for a (more or less) "true" velocity out of my shorter guide gun of 1956 fps for the 300 gr. round. This load reportedly uses 97.8% of the available case capacity, so that looks pretty good to me.

[Mike D.]

John, I have no data to prove it but don't believe that the copper bullets produce nearly as high pressure that the jacketed lead does. They sure scoot to the target faster. I need to take my chrony out and check the velocity of my '06 and .45-70 loads, something I have not as yet done. With regular jacketed 150 grain .308 bullets I load 47.5/H4895 for my 1924 vintage 1895 .30-06. I reduced the powder to 45 grains for the 168 TSX and believe that the velocity may be just as high. The old girl functions smoothly with that load and no signs of pressure issues. I didn't have my chrony down at the San Benito ranch, but will do it at our local place, as soon as the mud dries up just a bit. I hate it when my chair sinks as I'm takin' aim. Ventilating my chronograph is NOT on my to-do list.

[JohndeFresno]

...I need to take my chrony out and check the velocity of my '06 and .45-70 loads, something I have not as yet done...I didn't have my chrony down at the San Benito ranch, but will do it at our local place, as soon as the mud dries up just a bit...

Great! I'll hold off on my next Barnes purchase until you can crank up your device!

[86er]

John - I'm very impressed that you transated Shinnie so well. He talks like he write, on and on with no breath between. It's hard to figure out what he means sometimes. It looks like you weeded through and got some good info. Good Luck!

[JohndeFresno]

Thanks for going the extra mile on getting the info, 86er.

[scr83jp]

I've got barnes 250gr but haven't loaded any as yet in my xlr 45-70.I have other choices with 45lc,454casull (handguns),sw460mag( Bullberry 20"encore rifle barrel)using magtech 225gr all copper bullets that may open up like golden sabres from the site pics,also have nosler 150 & 180gr E Tips for my 06's & 300win mag.Wish barnes sold their seconds like nosler does on http://www.shootersproshop.com & http://www.bivwak.com

[brokenhand]

BTT

[JohndeFresno]

I've got barnes 250gr but haven't loaded any as yet in my xlr 45-70.I have other choices with 45lc,454casull (handguns),sw460mag( Bullberry 20"encore rifle barrel)using magtech 225gr all copper bullets that may open up like golden sabres from the site pics,also have nosler 150 & 180gr E Tips for my 06's & 300win mag.Wish barnes sold their seconds like nosler does on http://www.shootersproshop.com & http://www.bivwak.com

Thanks for the tip, Scr83jp!