475 Turnbull vs. 45-70 quote

[86er]

"Truthfully, you can come pretty close to this performance level (475 Turnbull) with heavy 45-70 loads intended for use in modern actions" - Craig Boddington Guns and Ammo Magazine, February 2009, "Power Play" -pp33 (inset).

Tell us something we don't already know.

[cas]

But much like in Hot Rods, "There's no substitute for cubic inches."

[jeepnik]

Back in my youth, the line about cubic inches rang true. Today, I see what these kids are doing with their little rice burners, and have to admit, they turn in faster times than we ever could. Still, the sound of 400+ cubes through wide open dual exhaust is something today's kids will never experience.

[Andrew]

Tell us something we don't already know.

The ostrich recieved it's scientific name(Struthio camelus) from the Greek words for "camel sparrow".

Still, the sound of 400+ cubes through wide open dual exhaust is something today's kids will never experience.

I have and you are correct, my good sir.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I'm not 45-70 literate. What are the top loads for 350 and 400 grain jacketed slugs in modern guns? I assume few people shoot 450's in the 45-70 due to OAL restrictions and powder capacity limits.

[86er]

Hey Rimfire:
I can get 45-70, 405gr's to go just short of 2200 fps in a 26" cowboy or a 24" XLR. Right about 2100 fps in my 22" Win
350's 2400 fps 2350


These are the Grizzly Cartridge stats with their loadings.

[cas]

Fast isn't everything. Fast is fleeting.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

The wife sent me on a grocery store run for milk before my boys (Ga. Tech) started their game with LSU tonight. I stopped by the magazine rack and there on the stand was this issue called Hodgdon's 2009 Annual Manual of Reloading. I grabbed it because it had a short section on the 348 ... but it occurred to me when I got home that it would probably have 45-70 loads in it. I have sets of older Speer and Hornady manuals but I would have to get up and go look for those and this was all shiny and new.

The 45-70 listings had three categories ... Sharps, Lever Actions, and Modern Rifles. These seem to be segmented by peak CUP. The Sharps limit is at 28,000CUP, the Lever Action is at 40,000CUP upper limit, and the Modern Rifles seems to top out at 50,000CUP.

The top loads for both Lever Action and Modern Rifle are all using H4198. Under the 40,000CUP limit are the 350's at 2191fps and 400's at 2002fps. Under the 50,000CUP limit the 350's are at 2300fps while the 400's are at 2108fps.

The OALs are all 2.540 inches. I assume the Modern Rifles are something along the lines of a Ruger #1 while the Lever Action means Browning/USRAC 1886 or Marlin 1895.

There are also some loads for other cartridges (medium bores) using BL-C(2) that I find interesting. In these, the BL-C(2) seems to produce a comparable velocity at a somewhat lower pressure in rounds like the 358 Winchester and 35 Remington when the heavier bullets are in play. There is no load for BL-C(2) in the 348 WCF section unfortunately. I need to look it up in the spreadsheet by SkyC that I got in another thread recently.

Referring back to the article in Rifle on the 475 Turnbull, the loads given in the included table are very close to the Modern Rifle loads for the 45-70. In this instance, I'd say the quote is valid, however the article notes a few loads that were developed for use in his 1886 that are clearly hotter ... 2400fps for the 400 grain bullet for example. The article conveys that most of the loads are kept down to keep them comfortable to shoot while still being plenty lethal.

Also of note, the 475 Turnbull has healthy loads listed for the 450 grain bullets at 2100fps. I think the OAL limit and subsequent loss of case capacity with the 450 grain .458" bullets in the 45-70 keep it from competing in that area. Obviously, he enjoys a 2.750" OAL with his 475 Turnbull.

Man, my boys (Ga. Tech) are getting creamed by LSU. LSU has really gone into coast mode in the 2nd half. The score should rightly be 65-3 LSU rather than the 38-3 that we're closing with.

[Tycer]

Fast isn't everything. Fast is fleeting.

Yep. On the big heavies, 1500 is about ideal for penetration. I couldn't get groups @1500, so 1675 is my load for the 450's in the 45-70.

[Bogie35]

Back in my youth, the line about cubic inches rang true. Today, I see what these kids are doing with their little rice burners, and have to admit, they turn in faster times than we ever could. Still, the sound of 400+ cubes through wide open dual exhaust is something today's kids will never experience.

Too bad there are no classics being built anymore.
I'm sure 50 years from now, you won't see anybody showing off their vintage "2008 Ford Taurus" or "2008 Chevy Impala".

bogie

[Wrangler John]

Yep, but the .45-70 really shines in a Siamese Mauser action where you can seat the bullet out and load to insane levels. I remember shooting 500 grain jacketed and cast bullets at 2,100 to 2,200 fps and realizing that my anatomy was the limiting factor. Dang thing shot perty good too, but I had a 1:18 twist just for the heavy bullets. They would penetrate the railroad tie backstop on the range, dead oak trees, and coast deer posed no problem - why you'd dress 'em out with a sponge. Didn't even need a knife, except for skinning.

No they won't be showing off their classic Ford Taurus, but then the new hot rods are turbo diesel trucks. My 6,500 pound GMC Sierra 4x4 DuraMax crew cab will clean the clock of most sporty cars, and them fellers that build 'em up with the goodies are pumping 1,000 hp and 1,200 ft lbs of torque and then some. When I push the throttle down, the turbo spools up and it slams me back in the seat getting scratch in three of six gears, I really feel young again. Stupid, but young. Maybe I'll spend some Social Security checks on race parts.

[Malamute]

In the 86 action, you have a longer overal cartridge length to work with in 45-70 than a marlin. Whatever is shown for 45-90 and 50-110 WCF is what the action will take, tho some of the 45-70's need a little work to get longer rounds in the loading gate. Not a serious issue, and simple to do. They feed fine after getting them in the magazine. A simple rechambering job to 45-90 in an 86 would probably do whatever the 475 does, tho I havent looked at any data.

I for one am happy with Keiths heavy 45-70 loads (400 @ 1850fps). When Sore Shoulder was up a couple years ago, he said he had a goal of X (something over 2000fps) velocity with a 400 gr bullet in his marlin. I told him they wouldnt be much fun to shoot. He reported that he shot some of them, but he ended up breaking the rest of them down for components. They werent any fun to shoot!

There's a few fairly large grizzlies around here. My loads should take care of anything on my mountain just fine, and are not hard to make fast follow up shots with.

[Naphtali]

Hey Rimfire:
I can get 45-70, 405gr's to go just short of 2200 fps in a 26" cowboy or a 24" XLR. Right about 2100 fps in my 22" Win
350's 2400 fps 2350

These are the Grizzly Cartridge stats with their loadings.

I must ask: What safe, published handloading data shows these velocity numbers? Does Grizzly use non-cannister powders to achieve their results?

[RKrodle]

Does Grizzly use non-cannister powders to achieve their results?

Yes. That's the same way that the other Custom ammo makers can do it. Also I have read it's the same way that some of the recent factory loads are hard for us handloaders to duplicate.

[Old Savage]

45-70.

[NavyDMO]

Man those are some powerful loads. Even a 405gr at 1600fps through my marlin guide gun jumps pretty good. I prefer to shoot the same bullet at 1350fps.

I'm trying to figure out a good 45-70 load for pigs. I want them to take the hit and stay put. Do I need to load up?

[RKrodle]

Man those are some powerful loads. Even a 405gr at 1600fps through my marlin guide gun jumps pretty good. I prefer to shoot the same bullet at 1350fps.

I'm trying to figure out a good 45-70 load for pigs. I want them to take the hit and stay put. Do I need to load up?

NavyDMO, Welcome to Leverguns. I think your 1350 fps load is plenty for hogs and most anything else. It's amazing what a big bullet like the 45-70 moving slow can do.

[brokenhand]

BTT

[thornblom]

Hey

[Tycer]

Hey Bubba,

Great to hear from ya. Hope all is well on the homefront.

[thornblom]

thanks

[Doc Hudson]

Hey Rimfire:
I can get 45-70, 405gr's to go just short of 2200 fps in a 26" cowboy or a 24" XLR. Right about 2100 fps in my 22" Win
350's 2400 fps 2350


These are the Grizzly Cartridge stats with their loadings.

What he didn't mention is that loads like that kill on one end and cripple on the other.

A 405 grain bullet a 2060 fps from an 18'5" 6.75-pound Guide Gun produced as much recoil as I could enjoy, and then some!

FWIW, I used 405's in my Guide Gun over healthy doses of IMR 4198 and I used 510 grain Semi-Spitzer Flat-points in my Rolling Block over 65 grains of Elephant Brand FFg blackpowder with Montana Gold Lube on the bullets.

[86er]

My Miroku made 1886 weighs 8lbs with all the accessories. It sports a Kick Eze recoil pad. It kicks, but it is not brual at all. There was a video floating around of me shooting a buffalo 5 times in something like 3 seconds - all good hits - with that gun. That was with the full boat Grizzly 405's running 2006fps from that 22" barrel.

[piller]

For what it is worth, I was there to see it when RKrodle videotaped 86er doing that shooting. He really did it with the heavy loads. He let me fire a few shots from his rifle, and that recoil pad and the weight did make it shootable without any pain. The kick was there, make no mistake, but it was not bad at all.

I had to put a recoil pad on my Guide Gun because even the lower power factory loads with it were noticeable. The recoil pat it came with was hard rubber and had no cushion, but now I am not getting bruised anymore.

[JustaJeepGuy]

I had to put a recoil pad on my Guide Gun because even the lower power factory loads with it were noticeable. The recoil pat it came with was hard rubber and had no cushion, but now I am not getting bruised anymore.

What did you replace the factory pad with?

[piller]

I put a Limbsaver on it. Not a perfect fit, but a little silicone sealant around it and there shouldn't be any problems with moisture. The new pad made a very noticeable difference in how many shots I could fire in a range session, and the bruising was no longer a factor.

[JustaJeepGuy]

Thanks; I'll look into the Limbsaver!