375 JDJ vs 375/444 vs 375 Winchester

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:18 pm

I'm building a project gun based on the levergun poll I ran here a few months ago. I have most of the details worked out, but I still haven't decided on a cartridge. The results of the poll indicated a .366 was the average/optimum caliber, so I'm looking in the 348 to 375 range, and I've narrowed it down pretty well.

In addition to being in that caliber range, I am looking for a life-long rifle, and anticipate scoping at some point when my eyes go bad. A viable 300 yard cartridge is desired. Originally I wanted the new 348 DC and probably still do, being a great 348 fan and having LOTS of components, but the base gun is proving very difficult to locate. For that conversion I need/want a pre-safety pistol grip 1895. I have yet to see one for sale and I've been looking for a while.

In my searching, it seems that there are a significant number of Marlin 375s and Marlin 444s in the pre-safety pistol grip configuration I am looking for. Maybe a 444 based cartridge would be an option.

I know the 348 DC will get about 2700 fps with a 180 gr bullet, and about 2300 with 250 grainers...basically the same as a 348 win in a shorter, lighter rifle.

I now am seeking information on the 375/444 and have not found any RIFLE data for the cartridge. Plenty of ballistics for the 375 JDJ, though.

Question 1: Is there any difference between the 375 JDJ and the 375/444 that Redding makes dies for?
Question 2: Does anybody have ballistic inoformation for the 375/444 or 375 JDJ out of a 20 to 24 inch barrel?
Question 3: What are the max ballistic capabilities of the 375 Winchester out of a 22 inch barrel?
Question 3: Has anyone heard of a 348/444?

Thanks!!

Kapincrunch · Post by **Kapincrunch** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:51 pm

My understanding is that the 375/444 is the 375JDJ by another name.

The Max 375 win out of a 22 inch barrel will be in the neighborhood of 2250 or 2300 for the 220 grain Hornady using 1680. A 200 grain sierra can get nearly 2500 fps out of a 22 inch barrel using the same 1680 powder. (these will not be 300 yard shooters without calculating a lot of drop and they wont have much energy at that range.

The 375 JDJ may be good for another 75 to 100 fps

Never heard of a 348/444 but it might be worth a go. Or how about a 348/450Marlin?

cas · Post by **cas** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:09 pm

Look at Ken Waters data for the 375 Express.

Case wise, it's the same as the 375JDJ with an ever so slight change.

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:18 pm

Sounds like you are looking for a scopable 348. On a weaker platform.

Maybe you just want a 338 Federal.

358 Win in a BLR comes close.

35 Whelen or 338/06 in an 1895 Winchester.

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:23 pm

You know - if only they had made those 71s in an AE version.

Um??? 71 Scout rifle.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:41 pm

Sounds like a job for my newly aquired ( to me ) .358 Win. Savage 99.

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:26 am

Thanks for the input gentlemen. The rifle configuration is a result of the previously mentioned poll, which I will write an article on later. Long story short, the rifle will to be a 22", full magazine, pre-safety pistol grip weighing around 7 pounds. I want to keep as close the resultant caliber size of .366 as I can, so .338 is a bit shy. Even 348 is a small, which is why I'm exploring the higher power 375s.

FYI, here is a link to said poll: http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... f=1&t=9729

It was my desire for it to be a long range proposition, so it has practical application in the western open country hunting that I do, so I need more oomph than the standard rounds in the 35 to 375 range. The 348 Win cartridge will work but not the M71 - too heavy (plus I would not defile the glorious M71 with a full mag and a new 22" barrel). I'd rather start with a $400 rifle that's relativley easy to come by.

I think a 94BB in 356W would also work quite nicely but I think they are a bit unsightly with those wide hips and the AE cut, plus I'm not sure if they ever came in pistol grip. As much as I like Winchesters, there are a heck of a lot more smiths working on the Marlins, and they are considerably cheaper. Also, I hear of minute-of-angle Marlins from Mic McPherson, Clements, and Wild West, to name a few, but I rarely here of MOA Winchester. Marlin 22" full magazine is the platform I've settled on.

JFE · Post by **JFE** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:14 am

The 375 Win is quite a capable cartridge in its own right and I have been able to extract some surprising ballistics from such a small case. I have been able to drive a 300gr cast bullet to just over 2000 fps and a 280gr cast to 2200 fps - that's out of a 20" barrel. Thats a lot of power from a small case and all that with very modest powder consumption too (close to a 223).

If you opt for a 375/444 I think you will have trouble finding bullets (cast or jacketed) with cannelures in the right location. The case is 2.248" long cf 2.02" for the 375 Win and 2.08-2.12 for the 38/55. To get around this you will need to alter your Marlin to feed and cycle the longer case. Apparently it is possible to modify a Marlin to cycle a cartridge with an OAL of around 2.65-2.7".

Other wildcat options :

A straight 375-356 and use necked up 356 or 307 brass. CH4D have dies available (375-08). This should require minimal mods if you start with 444 based Marlin.

You might want to consider is a wildcat based on the 45/70 case. This would provide even more capacity and likely be similar to a 375-06.

Another option would be a 375-350 Rem mag and use a Marlin rifle in 450 Marlin as your starting point. You would need to alter the rifle to take a longer OAL but this would be quite potent little package. I think Redding have dies available too.

I'd be interested to hear how your project develops as I'm interested in something similar.

Joe

arjunky · Post by **arjunky** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:28 am

I think JFE is on to something. If you wanted the Ultimate .375, base it on the .450 Marlin case and go as long as you can in the 1895 action.

Byron

coyotejoe · Post by **coyotejoe** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:44 am

I think you're chasing a "willow-the-whist". A 300 yard .375 cartridge just requires a longer round than any levergun can handle, the .375 H&H is barely a 300 yard round. You will need a 270 grain spirepoint at 27-2800 fps.

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:51 am

The 375/356 may be a option - I'll have to look more into that. Using the 450 Marlin platform is intriguing, but I wanted to stay with a pre-safety gun...all of the 1895Ms will have the safety.

Looking at the data, I agree that a 375 caliber flatnose will be very difficult to turn into a 300 yard shooter. I think I'll drop my expectations to 250 yds. I'd like to see data on the 450M / 45-70 based 375s. That seems like the best possibility. I know WWG and some others are lengthening the 1895 actions, so the cannelure problem may be overcome with a price.

The 348 DC is a 45/70 based round, and like the 348W it delivers reasonably to 250 yds, which is probably fine, and maybe that's the best that can be done in a flatnose levergun platform in the .350-and-above-range. Clements has already done the work on the cartridge and knows how to build an accurate rifle around it.

Another consideration unique to my situation is that I'm in California, and I have to consider the availablity of lead-free flat points. So far Barnes is only selling 30 and 45 caliber offerings. Fortunately I have several hundred .348 barnes X bullets that I got before they were discontinued. As far as I know, there are no lead-free 358 or 375 bullets being mfg'd at present.

The problem with the 45-70 based cartridges is I can't find the pre-safety pistol grip rifle for the base gun. They all seem to be straight grip. I should start another thread on converting a straight grip 1895 to a pistol grip - I wonder if anyone here has done it. I guess another option would be to get a modern rifle and weld up the safety holes to get rid of the darn thing.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:12 am

It's OK to want a wildcat, something only you have, but from a practical standpoint, You could not beat an older steel framed Browning BLR in .358 Win. It would be a better gun all of the way around.

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:21 am

A 9.3mm on the .444 Marlin case? Interesting. Points to consider...

Ken Waters .375 Express (explored TWICE in "Pet Loads") was made up for use in .303 British based actions. JDJ apparently slightly changed case dimensions/shoulder angle so that he could copyright the cartridge. T'aint a bit of difference. The cartridge does in the 14" Contender what the .375 Winchester does in a rifle. I think you'd have to be better than I am at judging distance and also use a scope to make it a 300 yard cartridge for game. There is another consideration...

If I understand correctly you are talking about using a MARLIN 1895 pre-safety gun. I don't believe the action is able to handle the .375 Express/JDJ COL, at least it won't eject a loaded cartridge. That would be a must for me.

One could say the .444 Marlin is a rimmed version of the .30-06 blown out. Cartridges wildcatted off the .444 have mostly been limited by the ability of the platforms on which they are used to handle pressure. Most haven't been run in the same pressure ranges as the .30-06 wildcats. One could include such cartridges as the .307 and .356 Winchester in this comparison. You won't get the performance you want because, on the platform you intend to use, you won't be able to run the pressures necessary for that performance goal. You're going to have to compromise somewhere.

That's my take on it...

thornblom · Post by **thornblom** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:41 am

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:45 am

That sounds like that way to go Bubba another choice is the 9.3x74R in the Ruger #1 if you go with that rifle.

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:27 am

I think I will go with either the 348 DC or a 375/45-70 wildcat. The previously mentioned 375 Levegun Express is pretty much a tapered case with a minimal ghost shoulder. I would want something that Ackley would be proud of - a nearly straight case with a 40 degree shoulder, based on the 45-70 or 450 Marlin.

It seems this subject has come up a few times on the Marlinowners.com forum. There is speculation that the cartridge would make at least 2,600 fps with a 220 gr jacketed fp. That would be impressive, and a bit painful out of a 7 pound rifle, no doubt.

Thank everyone for the input and advice!

diego · Post by **diego** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:42 am

Why use the Marlin action and not go with the browning BLR in the 450 Marlin for the better bullet selection?

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:27 pm

71fan

I, too, live in CA and although it's currently on hold, I have done a lot of work on the 375 cal Barnes TSX bullets for use in leverguns.

You can see my progress thus far, here. More will come later as I get to it in the next few weeks.

Barnes has told me the TSX bullet needs about 1700fps to open properly in its original form. My mods haven't opened properly yet, but I have plans to correct that. I want them to open down to about 1200-1300, and I think I can accomplish that with the right design of cuts (scoring) in the nose. These are hand turned on my lathe, so very laboe intensive, they are also not a for sale thing either, just showing you what can be done.

As for cannelure location, my solution would be to pruchase a cannelure tool and make your own if need be.

The 375 JDJ and 375/444 are virtually the same with very minor dimentional differences, but JD was very protective of his patent. I once asked him if he would rebore/rechamber a barrel for an NEF/H&R for that caliber and he said he would not, even though the NEF's are stronger than the Contender for which he designed the JDJ rounds. The contender will not handle rounds like the 30-06 and 35 Whelen but the NEF will.

Looking at what you're trying to achieve, I'd suggest a 450 Marlin based as opposed to a 45-70 simply for the stronger brass. I may be wrong on this part, but I thought Marlin used the stronger barrel thread design on the 450 as well. Just a thought. I'd personally stay from an Ackley design on a case that big, for fear of feading issues. You can always add the Ackley later, but you can't remove it.

Bullets, other than the CA regs, there are a lot of possibilities if you want to do a little work. Hornady has a 300gr spirepoint boattail bullet that would most likely net about 260-275 when cut properly for a levergun, and the boattail might give you the few extra yards you were looking for. But they will have a bit of drop, none the less.

This is a very ambitious project, would like to see/hear more as it progresses. Me personally, I'd just go for the new 338 Cal Marlin coming out and be happy. LOT more bullets in 338 out there.

finger toes · Post by **finger toes** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:38 am

Not sure how far or expensive you want to get but Mic McPherson just built a very impressive Marlin along the lines you are looking for. Precision shooting Sept issue. It's a 35 cal on an improved 348 case 180 gr Speers at 2900, 220 gr Speers at 2675 and 250s at 2535 fps. You tell Mic what you want and he'll tell you what's possible in his shop. It's a balancing act getting all the power, velocity, accuracy etc out of a lever gun but it's fun(except for the bill). The end result of your 33, 34, or 35 cal bullets is usually a max bullet weight of 250 grs so the advantages of one over another are slight except for configuration which will nullify most 33s for your tube mag. The cost for projectiles would be higher for 34s so thats another consideration. I hope Barnes doesn't drop their 348 original line! I don't see why you couldn't hit things at 300 yds with a 35 cal round with the mv in the 2900-2600 fps range, you may need a scope though. I'd be shy to build a rifle around one bullet made by one company ie. 338 Marlin express. It's a great idea the soft tip bullet but I'd wait and see if they make more variety and available as components.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:44 am

If I were after a truely long range with any of the above calibers, I'd use it as a 2 shot gun and pointy bullets. One in chamber and one in the magazine.

OR as was suggested earlier, just get a darned BLR and use any bullet you want.

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:03 am

You'll need a ackley stlye cartridge with higher pressures in a Marlin or you'll get sticky extraction. Do your ballistics research . I'm not sure a 375 projectile will be able to do what you want to do in the Marlin platform. I think the 35 cal will be able acheive ballistcally what your looking for. The 356 Win , 35-444. Someone on this board tried a 450M necked down to 375 or 35 and it destroyed the gun, so you won't need that much powder capacity. Keep us posted on your choice of cartridge.

thornblom · Post by **thornblom** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:16 am

I'm thinking that a 300 yard gun, realistically, should be either a bolt action or a single shot.
Now, I know that hits can be made with lever actions at 300 yards because I have done so with several of my leverguns. However, I was shooting at steel silhouettes or large paper targets, not game animals. With lever actions, on game animals, I limit myself to 100 to 125 yards with the .44 mag and hot loaded .45 Colt and 175 to 200 yards with various .30 caliber lever actions. My .375 JDJ #3 Ruger I limit myself to 200 yards on game as I do with my Model 71 winchester .348wcf.

Ya'll may have different ideas, and that is cool. These are just the limits I set for my self as I don't want to have to track wounded animals all over hell and gone.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

thornblom · Post by **thornblom** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:22 am

In retrospect:

The Marlin lever action .308 marlin and the 99 savage in .300 savage or .308 wcf, or winchester model 88 in .308 wcf or .284 wcf when scoped and sighted in properly might possibly be stretched to 300 yards by a competent shooter.

Sincerely,

Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

PS: Brownings BLR in certain calibers, probably.

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:38 am

Just a thought, 9.3x62mm or 9.3x57mm in a BLR? A BLR in 30-06 can be rechambered in either one, plus the pressure is less than a 30-06. I have a few 9.3x62's in Mauser actions, brass and bullets can be bought at Grafs, Privi Partizan makes a decent 286 gr bullet. I was looking at the Win 358 and the 9.3x62 case dimensions, and the interesting thing is how close they are to each other, aside from the overall length.

Steve

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:56 pm

Old Savage wrote:You know - if only they had made those 71s in an AE version.

Um??? 71 Scout rifle.

A 71 AE...??? BLASPHEMY!!!

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:47 pm

This has been very educational adn helpful. What a great forum! Thanks everyone.

I wish I would have seen this article earlier. It seems our very own Paco has been there, done that.....
http://leverguns.com/articles/paco/375-356.htm
It's worth a read if you haven't already.

I'm leaning toward a Marlin in 375 Win or going with the 348 DC in an 1895. Based on all of the input here, and reading Pacos article and his latest book, I've concluded that the 375 wildcats are a bit more than I'm ready for and probably more than I need. Paco has done some amazing work with the 375/38-55 and I think the 375 Win will get close to what I want, with a PBR of about 225 to 240 yards for an 8-inch kill zone. Now I have to look into converting a 375BB into a pistol grip.

NonPCnraRN · Post by **NonPCnraRN** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:10 pm

Since Marlin is coming out with its own 338 cartridge, I would wait a while to see what bullets are available. Assuming that gummy boolits will not be an option for a while, a round or flatnosed .338 bullet would give a flatter trajectory than .358 or .375. The fly in the ointment is that you want a 300 yd gun and a I assume with as flat a trajectory as possible. There are cartridges already out there that will do the job at 300 yds except they have a trajectory like a rainbow. Paco Kelly did and article on the 356/375 conversion of a Big Bore. In the first part of the article he listed straight 375 Win loads using 38-55 brass for more volume. He made his own bullets out of copper tubing and lead cores. You could get the equivalent bullet from Hawk Bullets. He shot a 1800 lb range steer with the 300 gr bullet in 38-55 brass and the bullet went stem to stern through the steer. If I was going to do this I might try a Marlin 1895 Cowboy and custom 26" octogon barrel in the .338/45-70 wildcat. The large powder space combined with slower burning powders and a 26" barrel should work well. Good luck. So many choices, so little time/money. I would only use a 3/4" tube scope with the adjustments in the scope rings (Wm. Malcolm) in either 3x or 6x in keeping with the general look of the rifle. You would probably want 6x for your 300 yd gun. Sounds like a fun project. Make mine a Marlin Cowboy in an Ackley type 45-70/.338 wildcat with a 6x Wm. Malcolm scope. I would have Hawk Bullets make the bullets in the weight and jacket thickness that I would deem most appropriate. Yup, that's the ticket.

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:52 pm

NonPCnraRN wrote:SinIf I was going to do this I might try a Marlin 1895 Cowboy and custom 26" octogon barrel in the .338/45-70 wildcat. The large powder space combined with slower burning powders and a 26" barrel should work well...I would only use a 3/4" tube scope with the adjustments in the scope rings (Wm. Malcolm) in either 3x or 6x in keeping with the general look of the rifle. You would probably want 6x for your 300 yd gun. Sounds like a fun project. Make mine a Marlin Cowboy in an Ackley type 45-70/.338 wildcat with a 6x Wm. Malcolm scope. I would have Hawk Bullets make the bullets in the weight and jacket thickness that I would deem most appropriate. Yup, that's the ticket.

The 348 DC is nearly identical to what you are talking about, except of course the caliber, but close enough. He's getting 2,700 fps with a 180 from a 22" barrel. That is at least a 250 yd rifle, and with a good shooter 300 yds is within reason, dropping about 11 inches with a 3"@100 sighting. And right now, there are more suitable bullets for the 348 than the 338. 348 has offereings from Hornady, Barnes, and Hawk, while 338 is only Hawk. However, like you alluded to if/when the Leverevolution bullets become available they will be for the 338.

slimster · Post by **slimster** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:10 pm

71fan wrote:
NonPCnraRN wrote:SinIf I was going to do this I might try a Marlin 1895 Cowboy and custom 26" octogon barrel in the .338/45-70 wildcat. The large powder space combined with slower burning powders and a 26" barrel should work well...I would only use a 3/4" tube scope with the adjustments in the scope rings (Wm. Malcolm) in either 3x or 6x in keeping with the general look of the rifle. You would probably want 6x for your 300 yd gun. Sounds like a fun project. Make mine a Marlin Cowboy in an Ackley type 45-70/.338 wildcat with a 6x Wm. Malcolm scope. I would have Hawk Bullets make the bullets in the weight and jacket thickness that I would deem most appropriate. Yup, that's the ticket.
The 348 DC is nearly identical to what you are talking about, except of course the caliber, but close enough. He's getting 2,700 fps with a 180 from a 22" barrel. That is at least a 250 yd rifle, and with a good shooter 300 yds is within reason, dropping about 11 inches with a 3"@100 sighting. And right now, there are more suitable bullets for the 348 than the 338. 348 has offereings from Hornady, Barnes, and Hawk, while 338 is only Hawk. However, like you alluded to if/when the Leverevolution bullets become available they will be for the 338.

71fan, there are plenty of rounds out there for the .338, if you file or clip off the pointy ones. Common available range of 200 to 250 grains with extremes running from 160 to 300 gr. iirc.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:19 pm

Hobie wrote:A 9.3mm on the .444 Marlin case? Interesting. Points to consider...

One could say the .444 Marlin is a rimmed version of the .30-06 blown out. ...

The 57 mm family of cartridges to be exact

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:11 pm

I believe you mentioned earlier that you were in CA. If so MOST of the calibers you've discussed here, will be hard pressed to find suitable bullets, to meet the no lead requirement.

My final suggestion, for a levergun has to be the BLR. If you insist on big bore, then get the 338 Federal, or 358 Win or the 325 WSM if you want near 338 WM power. The 325 might be an issue for non lead bullets but I haven't looked. There are lots of 338 cal, non lead choices, and one or two in 358 cal.

The 338 Federal will do all you want and comes in factory loads with the Barnes TSX bullets. Otherwise, honestly, something will have to give here. Either the range you want to shoot or the caliber.

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:58 pm

I have a good stock of 348 Barnes X bullets - enough to last a lifetime if I take it easy on them. The other good news is that most of my hunting is out of state where the other bullets will still work (for now). But you're correct with the 375...I would only be able to use it out of state, unless you start selling the lathe turned ones

I'm pretty sure the 348 DC will do what I want to do, especially with my supply of Barnes Xs. The 375 Winchester, based on Paco's writings, comes close and may be a compromise, but I'd have to use another rifle in CA.

As far as the BLR goes, I agree it is a great platform, and I will end up with a two barrel takedown eventually. But my requirements for this project are very specific, based on the September Levergun poll and the planned article. It will be a 22" barrel with a full length mag tube, in the .350 to .375 range.

NonPCnraRN · Post by **NonPCnraRN** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:56 am

In CA you can shoot .375 Barnes 270 gr and 300 gr Banded Solids. They will act like hardcast but not too aerodynamic. A 348 or 45-70 based case would be the way to go. But it almost sounds like a safe bullet in a tubular mag and flat trajectory to 300 yds is an oxymoron.

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:14 am

I'd like to think of it less as an oxymoron, and more as a challenge

Anyway, I lowered my expectations to 250 yds. 300 yds is definitely stretching it.

Camp Cook · Post by **Camp Cook** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:45 pm

Good read guys, I just bought a new to me used 21" barreled s/s T/C Contender carbine in 375 Win and have contacted both Mike Bellm and JDJ in regards to the 375X444 and 375JDJ conversions.

I want to be able to reach out to 300 yards as well...

thornblom · Post by **thornblom** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:23 am

Hey camp cook,

If you have your .375 wcf barrel re-chambered to .375 JDJ, for your contender, be extremely careful of the load data that you use. There is data out there for contenders only (that is what to use). There is data for Encores and bits and pieces of data for other (stronger) actions such as the ruger #1 and #3. The contender action is not as strong as folks would like to believe, even in the G2 mode. DO NOT HOT ROD THE CONTENDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No matter what you have heard to the contrary, use conservation loads, especially with the .375 JDJ in the contender.

I have a Ruger #3 that was a .375 wcf that I had re-chambered to .375 JDJ. The Ruger #3 action is as strong as the Ruger #1. I use some relatively upscale loads in it that I will not list here for obvious reasons. I limit myself to 200 yards on game shots. I really don't consider the .375 JDJ a viable 300 yard cartridge. .375 H&H mag, yes. Big difference.

.375 JDJ with 270 grain bullet, 2200 ft/sec
.375 H&H with 270 grain bullet 2700 ft/sec

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

Wrangler John · Post by **Wrangler John** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:55 am

There is one cartridge that I have that may be of interest, although mine's chambered in a bolt action, it was designed for the lever action by Bob Hutton and P.O. Ackley, called the 'Lever Power' series. The .35-348 Winchester Ackley Improved. They made up a series on the same principle, it can be necked up to any desired bullet diameter. That nice straight case body and 40 degree shoulder reduces bolt thrust and case stretch, and there is ample case capacity. I use .350 Remington Magnum data as a starting point, and had no trouble getting 180 grain Core-Locks to 2,700 fps or 250 grain Hornady's to 2,500 fps, before I went on to other projects. Necking to .366" isn't any problem, as is .375" which makes the .375 Alaskan. These cartridges will work in any action that will handle the .348 Winchester. In some instances an OEM factory barrel (non-hammer forged) can be rebored and rechambered saving the original markings, except for the chambering designator.

In my opinion (caution opinion alert) the .444 Marlin and .375 Winchester cases are a tad too small to produce the best velocity and pressure relationship where the .348 Winchester case can burn larger charges of slow powders i.e. IMR 4350, to gain the velocity with a lower peak pressure. If you look at the loading data, .375 JDJ and cartridges in the .444 Marlin wildcat series use powders in the faster range of burning speed say 4198 to 3031 and 4895 at the slowest, while the .375 Alaskan and .348 based wildcats thrive on RL-15 to H 4831SC.

Bullet choice in a tube magazine will be limited. I built mine to use up an extra Siamese Mauser action laying around the shop, so no problem there.

By the way, the lead bullet prohibition extends to only a few counties south of Monterey County in the California condor range, not the entire state. You can hunt with lead bullets anywhere else, especially up north where the big bucks live.

NonPCnraRN · Post by **NonPCnraRN** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:01 am

Wrangler John wrote:There is one cartridge that I have that may be of interest, although mine's chambered in a bolt action, it was designed for the lever action by Bob Hutton and P.O. Ackley, called the 'Lever Power' series. The .35-348 Winchester Ackley Improved. They made up a series on the same principle, it can be necked up to any desired bullet diameter. That nice straight case body and 40 degree shoulder reduces bolt thrust and case stretch, and there is ample case capacity. I use .350 Remington Magnum data as a starting point, and had no trouble getting 180 grain Core-Locks to 2,700 fps or 250 grain Hornady's to 2,500 fps, before I went on to other projects. Necking to .366" isn't any problem, as is .375" which makes the .375 Alaskan. These cartridges will work in any action that will handle the .348 Winchester. In some instances an OEM factory barrel (non-hammer forged) can be rebored and rechambered saving the original markings, except for the chambering designator.

In my opinion (caution opinion alert) the .444 Marlin and .375 Winchester cases are a tad too small to produce the best velocity and pressure relationship where the .348 Winchester case can burn larger charges of slow powders i.e. IMR 4350, to gain the velocity with a lower peak pressure. If you look at the loading data, .375 JDJ and cartridges in the .444 Marlin wildcat series use powders in the faster range of burning speed say 4198 to 3031 and 4895 at the slowest, while the .375 Alaskan and .348 based wildcats thrive on RL-15 to H 4831SC.

Bullet choice in a tube magazine will be limited. I built mine to use up an extra Siamese Mauser action laying around the shop, so no problem there.

By the way, the lead bullet prohibition extends to only a few counties south of Monterey County in the California condor range, not the entire state. You can hunt with lead bullets anywhere else, especially up north where the big bucks live.

I was under the impression Monterrey County was included. If the range of the condor increases, the the lead free prohibition extends with it.

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:25 pm

I hate to say it, but I fully expect the entire state to be lead free within the next ten years. The wackos will impose their will one way or another. It's always good to plan ahead.

NonPCnraRN · Post by **NonPCnraRN** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:44 pm

71fan wrote:I hate to say it, but I fully expect the entire state to be lead free within the next ten years. The wackos will impose their will one way or another. It's always good to plan ahead.

That is why I am looking at Barnes TSX FP boolits and North Fork Cup Point Solids for all hunting in CA. I don't want to have 2 different loads for each application I might need. Plus I don't want to have to verify my position by GPS if I am close to a lead free area. I will find lead bullets of the same wt and profile for practice and use the ultra expensive non lead bullets for the actual hunt. I will of course have to use a few to sight in my rifle just before a hunt. I thought we were to get some kind of rebate on the purchase of lead free bullets or ammo? Has anyone taken advantage of this? Maybe if they pay farmers not to grow stuff, we should be paid not to hunt!!! Yeah right!

Camp Cook · Post by **Camp Cook** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:34 am

thornblom wrote:Hey camp cook,

DO NOT HOT ROD THE CONTENDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No matter what you have heard to the contrary, use conservation loads, especially with the .375 JDJ in the contender.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

Thanks for the thoughts/advise...

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:56 am

You could also take the 338 Marlin express and open it up for .375" bullets or go to .358" bullets and use the 35 cal Leverrevolution bullets (200 gr). I would think that you would be looking at 35 Whelen ballistics then.
I am more thinking of going the .375 route with a rebored 338 mxlr (as if I need another 375 cal gun!!) or maybe a 41/338 and use 405 Win bullets instead.