Most reloadable brass manufacturer.

[ob1coby]

Does anyone have an opinion on who make the ammo that I can reliably reload the most times with quality results. I am using this question for my next bulk 223 purchase, but it will transfer to my 45-70 when I get one. This is not for benchrest, just best quality most reliable brass for quantity. Thanks for any imput.

[TedH]

Winchester

[Wrangler John]

In the December-January 2009 Handloader Gary Sciuchetti wrote an article on .308 accuracy loading. In the article he tested 10 brands of brass for endurance. Winchester was in the middle of the pack, failing at 14 shots. Norma went the longest failing at the 24th shot. Both Remington plain and plated brass went 20/22 sots respectively. Lapua went 15 shots. Nosler, Federal Hornady did not fare as well, with Nosler and Federal Military being the worse, failing at the 11th shot. So, if this can be translated to .223, then Norma and Remington offer the longest lived brass. Hornady, Norma, Nosler and Lapua are substantially more expensive than the others. In terms of cost, the Remington and Winchester seem to offer the best value for new brass, something I learned a long time ago. Starline brand .45-70 brass is very good, I use it exclusively now. It has the advantage of begin about $100 cheaper per 500 than Remington or Winchester in either plain or nickel. I have enough to last a lifetime, or what's left anyway. Winchester brass used to be canelured to prevent bullets from being pushed into the case by a magazine spring, a holdover from the days of yore, something I didn't like as it interfered with seating 500 grain cast bullets. Remington brass had radiused rims and no case canelure, I used it until the Starline came along. However, being a straight case the stuff lasts a long time if treated well.

[AJMD429]

That was a good article. Made me think "Remington" at least for bottleneck cases, especially any based on the .308 (which in MY limited inventory, IS .308 ).

[BenT]

Because of the Handloader article I'm going to try to buy Remington over Winchester. I usually bought what ever was cheaper or available. But 20 loads vs 14 before failure is a big difference.

[AndyM]

I always seemed to do better with Remington, even before the Handloader article. Winchester, for me, did not seem to last that long.

But this information was "found" by mistake, because I usually buy whatever is cheaper or whatever has the best deal at the time.

[TedH]

Interesting article. I wonder if the Winchester or Remington has changed their brass in some way lately, as in the last 3-5 years? I have not bought any new brass with the exception of some Jamison brass for at least that long. With the brass I have now, I always had luck with Winchester. Looks like my next purchase will be Remington brass.

[morgan in nm]

I have never read the article but I have always used remington brass every chance I get. Remington has always seemed to me to be a bit softer which is easier to reload. I have tried winchester on some calibers such as 30-06 and .308 and have found problems crimping the bullet as well as shaving copper(NOT ALWAYS) and I use new rcbs dies for those calibers. It seems like sometimes, I have to give them a little extra reaming at the case mouth. PMC brass is like winchester in quality, maybe a little worse. Federals are good for some calibers. On metric calibers, it is awful hard to beat Norma.

I infact use remington for 223 as well as 45-70.

Just my $.02 worth.

[Modoc ED]

I have never read the article but I have always used remington brass every chance I get. Remington has always seemed to me to be a bit softer which is easier to reload. I have tried winchester on some calibers such as 30-06 and .308 and have found problems crimping the bullet as well as shaving copper(NOT ALWAYS) and I use new rcbs dies for those calibers. It seems like sometimes, I have to give them a little extra reaming at the case mouth. PMC brass is like winchester in quality, maybe a little worse. Federals are good for some calibers. On metric calibers, it is awful hard to beat Norma.

I infact use remington for 223 as well as 45-70.

Just my $.02 worth.

Try boattail bullets for your .30-06 and .308 loads. There was an article in either Rifle Magazine or Handloader Magazine that address the problem you have described. The article said that Boattail bullets were initially introduced to aid in reloading bullets and to keep brass from deforming, etc..

[Slick13]

http://www.neiljones.com/html/full_leng ... _dies.html

With dies from Neil any brass should last a long time.

~Michael

[timkelley]

I've never done any testing, scientific or otherwise, but Remington brass has always seemed to last me longest.

[perry owens]

Excuse the ignorance of a black powder only shooter but what is the usual failure mode observed on this 0.223/0.308type of case? Is it usual to anneal the shoulder of them, as we do with the big black powder bottleneck cases? Has anyone done any research on the effect of annealing on case life?

Perry Owens

[Doc Hudson]

Back more than 20 years ago, 1987 IIRC, Guns & Ammo ran a test to see how long brass would last.

They selected the .38 S&W Special as the cartridge and started off with 100 pieces of new unfired brass from several different manufacturers. They used a standard pressure load using Unique (IIRC). They trimmed cases only when necessary and continued to load and fire ammunition, measuring the brass after each firing. When case mouths split, or cases burned through, or primer pockets expanded beyond a certain amount, the brass was discarded. They continued this to find which cartridge would last the longest.

Finally, they were down to two cartridge cases. One was, IIRC, a piece of Winchester brass. The other was a piece of nickle-plated Federal brass. At somewhere in the upper reaches of the 130's the Winchester brass burned through the side. The Federal case continued to be fired until it too burned through on the 143 firing.

I can't sit here and tell you that your .223 or .45-70 brass will last as long. But I do believe that it is a good indicator of the quality of Federal brass. I use lots of Federal brass in my reloading, and generally restrict my top-end loads to Federal Brass. That doesn't mean I throw out Remington, Winchester, or any other brand of brass, but when I'm buying new unfired brass I look for Federal's headstamp.

[AJMD429]

Excuse the ignorance of a black powder only shooter but what is the usual failure mode observed on this 0.223/0.308type of case? Is it usual to anneal the shoulder of them, as we do with the big black powder bottleneck cases? Has anyone done any research on the effect of annealing on case life?

Perry Owens

Every time I decide I should anneal brass, I read an article saying it is a waste of time and/or too difficult to do properly and affordably. I'm interested in what others have found on this.

The only cases I've had fail are bunches of .223 reloads (unsure how many times they are NOT once-fired brass, and were purchased from a local reloader) that fail with neck crack parallel to the cartridge axis (not always to the end, sometimes just at the shoulder/neck junction), and an occasional pinhole/crack near the base. No separations. Rem, Win, Mil, mixed cases. One .30-06 base separated off half an inch above the headstamp but fortunately the fore part of the case also came out when I worked the 1903 bolt. None of the guns have had noticeable effect or even different noise when these have happened.

[Modoc ED]

Back more than 20 years ago, 1987 IIRC, Guns & Ammo ran a test to see how long brass would last.

I'd say that a study on brass cases done 20 years ago would not be an indicator of the life of brass cases made today. The changes in metalurgy have been significant. Yes, the basic compounds made to make brass are the same but the methods of making, additives, anealing, etc. have been improved significantly over the years.

Just my .02¢

[Doc Hudson]

Back more than 20 years ago, 1987 IIRC, Guns & Ammo ran a test to see how long brass would last.

I'd say that a study on brass cases done 20 years ago would not be an indicator of the life of brass cases made today. The changes in metalurgy have been significant. Yes, the basic compounds made to make brass are the same but the methods of making, additives, anealing, etc. have been improved significantly over the years.

Just my .02¢

I can't argue with you at all.

All I can say is that I've had perfect satisfaction with Federal brass for the last 20 years. But for that matter, I've had no complaints about Winchester, Remington, Frontier, or PMC brass. The only complaints I've had about brass at all has been about military brass bending or breaking decappin pins. I reached the conclusion that GI brass is not worth the effort.

As a side note, the only factory ammo I've had any trouble with was some Federal red box .22 LR High Velocity cartridges back in the late 1970's. I had a number of cases to split in my revolver, it had never happened before, and has never happened since. I sent some of the split cases and the box to Federal along with a note and never heard from them.

[perry owens]

AJMD429 wrote

Every time I decide I should anneal brass, I read an article saying it is a waste of time and/or too difficult to do properly and affordably. I'm interested in what others have found on this.

My black powder experiences may not be relevant to smokeless powders and modern high-tolerance chamber dimensions, but here's what I learned. With 577/450 Martini Henry Bertram brass I was getting neck splits after 5-8 reloads, on 11.15mm Werndl fireformed brass cases split at the neck after as few as 2 reloads. With some cases costing $5 each I was ready to put up with the inconvenience of annealing. My kit is very simple - a propane torch, a Lee case spinner chucked in an electric screwdriver, a bucket of water and a dab of Tempilac temperature indicator paint on the neck of the case. Now I make it a habit to anneal after 5 reloads and so far haven't lost a case.
Someone out there must think annealing is worthwhile as at least two companies offer annealing machines http://www.zephyrdynamics.com/page3.html
http://www.kenlightmfg.com/products.html

Perry Owens

[WCF3030]

Funny you should ask.
In just under 2months I reloaded the same 20rds of new Winchester brass for my 30-30 28 times, using the same 28.5gr of H-335 173gr Lyman bullet, LP primer in my H&R. Full length size the 1st time then neck size after that.
Then I did the same thing with mixed used brass in my 336 30-30 with the same load and same result after loading 28 times.
All rounds where shot from a cross legged field position and not the bench but accuracy improved as I improved, and never seemed to diminish.

I keep track of time, temp, light, groups and put it all on a spread sheet. At times it was a pain but I came up with some neat results.

[marlinman93]

If you're talking .223, I've had gotten a lot of reloads out of the Winchester white box ammo.

[rost495]

I can't honestly say how much 223 I've shot. Over 100K rounds. LC brass is by far my first choice in that caliber. Worst choice is Federal.

I have had good luck with RP and RP nickel past that.

I think it has a lot to do with caliber though, from what I hear when I go to 32-20 Starline is it, not WW or RP....

I learned some of my competition shooting from a wise old gent, who fired 223 bolt guns and torture tested a piece of WW once to 27 loads..... I get an easy 20 loads from LC and WW has changed since those days.

Jeff

[Bigahh]

Interesting information! I have never tried to push my brass to the limit, but I have found that Norma Brass gives me the best accuracy overall.

[scr83jp]

In the December-January 2009 Handloader Gary Sciuchetti wrote an article on .308 accuracy loading. In the article he tested 10 brands of brass for endurance. Winchester was in the middle of the pack, failing at 14 shots. Norma went the longest failing at the 24th shot. Both Remington plain and plated brass went 20/22 sots respectively. Lapua went 15 shots. Nosler, Federal Hornady did not fare as well, with Nosler and Federal Military being the worse, failing at the 11th shot. So, if this can be translated to .223, then Norma and Remington offer the longest lived brass. Hornady, Norma, Nosler and Lapua are substantially more expensive than the others. In terms of cost, the Remington and Winchester seem to offer the best value for new brass, something I learned a long time ago. Starline brand .45-70 brass is very good, I use it exclusively now. It has the advantage of begin about $100 cheaper per 500 than Remington or Winchester in either plain or nickel. I have enough to last a lifetime, or what's left anyway. Winchester brass used to be canelured to prevent bullets from being pushed into the case by a magazine spring, a holdover from the days of yore, something I didn't like as it interfered with seating 500 grain cast bullets. Remington brass had radiused rims and no case canelure, I used it until the Starline came along. However, being a straight case the stuff lasts a long time if treated well.

I was in Dillons in Scottsdale buying some supplies a few years ago and checked on 45-70 brass it was very high in price so I passed when we returned home I checked midway and starline 45-70 was really cheap so I contacted the tech who has the gatling guns and told him about the sale for about $45/100 he thanked me & told me that was cheaper than he could buy it with his discount when I checked midway a couple of days later all 45-70 starline brass was gone.

[Wrangler John]

I was in Dillons in Scottsdale buying some supplies a few years ago and checked on 45-70 brass it was very high in price so I passed when we returned home I checked midway and starline 45-70 was really cheap so I contacted the tech who has the gatling guns and told him about the sale for about $45/100 he thanked me & told me that was cheaper than he could buy it with his discount when I checked midway a couple of days later all 45-70 starline brass was gone.

Yep, do a someone a good turn, and they corner the market. Mentioned a source for Federal primers on a forum once, and they too disappeared before I could order. Now I order first and spill the beans after!

I buy Starline brass direct from Starline through their online store. Usually find it in stock. Just checked and 500 .45-70 cases go for $178.45. Good source for .480 Ruger and .45 Colt brass too. You can buy 1,000 .45 Colt cases for $153.75.

If I recall, Starline was started by Sierra Bullets sometime after they moved to Sedalia, MO from Rancho Santa Fe, CA. The two companies are across the street from one another. I have yet to wear out any of their brass.

[Old Time Hunter]

First it seems to be an apple to orange comparison, Doc's is a straight cartridge, the other is based on a necked cartridge.

Second, I personally have found that what ever I do, all my 45-70 brass fails faster with loading BP than smokeless. It seems to balloon just north of the .200" mark from the rim. It does not matter whether it is Remington, Winchester, or Hornady. As far as smokeless, I've not worn out any of them yet. 'Course I do not keep track as to how many times I've loaded them, but some of the brass is 20+ years old.

As far as necked brass, I've had the best luck so far on PPV(Graf's) cheap stuff on my 7.62 x 54R, .303's, and 8mm, still have not split or distorted any. Whereas my .30-30 Win's last about 10 years and the Remingtons about 15.

[rost495]

answers to annealing, with 223, I keep probably 10K loaded rounds here at any time, and due to heat/cold cycles the necks will crack since copper/lead bullets expand/contract at a different rate than brass. I anneal about every 5-6 firings and will get 4 cycles of LC EASY. LC brass is cheaper, and gives me 2 inch and less groups at 600 yards from my AR15s.

As mentioned, I feel its an individual thing. If I have to blindly pick it'll be Rem. But by caliber it seems to vary. As mentioned, while some folks love FC, FC in 223 is a one shot proposition. Way too soft.

Good luck, Jeff

[JohndeFresno]

Thank you to everybody who posted here. This highly relevant information helps me to consider my next series of purchases as I stock up for possible hard times ahead.

Well done, all!

[Griff]

My opinion... well, there just any way to know. Differences in loading, loads and firearms vary significantly and will affect the life of brass substantially.

Let me just say this... I tossed out the last of my .38Spl brass that used Large Pistol primers cause I finally got tired of changing out the priming mechanism.

[JohndeFresno]

I tossed out the last of my .38Spl brass that used Large Pistol primers cause I finally got tired of changing out the priming mechanism.

Are they still in your trash barrel? I hand-prime everything...