44 magnum vs 30-30

okanagan hiker · Post by **okanagan hiker** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:14 pm

Hi all...

I am looking for opinions -

For black bear, which is more effective... 44 magnum ( example of Remington 275gr core-lokt or Win 250gr partion gold ) or 30-30 ( example 170gr Win silvertip ).

or.... 45LC??? heavy cast bullet?

Also, thoughts about hard cast vs jacketed expanders?

Also, this is more about defense than hunting... a frontal shot is most likely.

Thoughts about pentration, wound channel, etc.

thanks in advance
OKH

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:19 pm

Well welcome, and I am sure someone will be along shortly to start the ruckus that will be your answer.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:06 am

OKH, If you pick the 44 or 45 go with a hardcast lead w/gc you will be happy, softpoints open to quick. danny

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:23 am

Bigger is better in my opinion when you couch the parameters in terms of defense. Faster is good, but big, slow heavy bullets impart more energy transfer to the object being struck.

However, shot placement is still number ONE!

okanagan hiker · Post by **okanagan hiker** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:54 am

I think my concern is tissue damage and wound channel more than penetration.

Would not an expander like the Partion Gold ( with its nice protected core ) give the best of both worlds? Expansion, along with retained weight ( likely at least 200 of the original 250 grains ) to give penetration... and a more damaging wound.

Yes, I know energy is lost during expansion, and some weight, and that the now larger 'face' of the bullet causes more drag.

But is the hard, blunt face of the hardcast going to cause enough trauma by itself?

OKH

alnitak · Post by **alnitak** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:06 am

My choice would be .44 magnum with Randy Garrett Hammerheads:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/garrett.htm

He offers two versions, a 310 gr, 1020 fps that is perfect for handguns up close, and a 310 gr, 1325 fps that is ideal for lever guns.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:19 am

Big holes bleed better too. Hardcast bullets, like Garret ammo, will present excellent penetration (I have never recovered a Garret bullet in any game) two big holes, impart enrgy, cause wound channel, and a blood trail on a critter that sometimes just doesn't show much blood. The 30-30 has taken plenty of game and plenty of Bear and is more than adequate for the job. the 170 gr power shock ammo is not much to my liking. I recently shot a mixed goat at 30 yards and the ammo performed poorly to say the least on what should have been a perfect shot. On another animal, it performed perfectly. Either would work. I would use either cartridge but if I was choosing, I would use a 45-70 out of my WWG co-pilot as my "defense" gun. In any of the cartridges, I would use a hard cast bullet. If you are going to use one that opens up, be sure to use a quality bullet. One of the site's sponsors, Grissly ammo - makes some superior ammo also. I no longer carry a .44 afield, going for the .45 LC so if you wanted to hunt with the 30-30 and have a defense sidearm, load one up with keith style loads in either .44 or .45 and you will be well armed for the situation.

darrell3030 · Post by **darrell3030** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:22 am

As much as I would love to say the 30-30 wcf I will have to go with the 44 mag with a heavy lead bullet.
I would pick my Win 94 44mag over my Marlin 336cb for bear.

Slick13 · Post by **Slick13** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:49 am

okanagan hiker wrote: Also, this is more about defense than hunting... a frontal shot is most likely.

Riot gun with the first shot 00 or 000 buckshot, followed by a slug, followed by more buckshot.

As for .44 Mag vs .30-30.... Remington 275 gr. 44 load vs. 170 grain soft point Core Lokts.... the .30-30 at all ranges has more velocity, energy, and a higher ballistic coefficient. But for a bear over 500 lbs (that's potentially PO'ed), neither cartridge would be my first choice.

~Michael

okanagan hiker · Post by **okanagan hiker** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:47 pm

I am also leaning towards a my Mossberg 500 12 gauge... but I would rather carry a nice slim light lever action!

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:25 pm

With proper ammo I wouldn't worry myself over the difference.

Dirty Dan · Post by **Dirty Dan** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:09 pm

If you already own one of the above, use what you got.
If you are you buying new, 45-70.

Scott Young · Post by **Scott Young** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:14 pm

either! it is just a black bear. what ever will kill a deer will serve nicely for bear for hunting. if you are attacked then either. you will most likely get of one shot and that will probably not do you any good, and you will be mauled.

okanagan hiker · Post by **okanagan hiker** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:15 pm

Well since I am wanting a new lever anyways.. the Marlin 1895 GG sounds good in 45-70

But my basic question remains... hard cast vs expanding jacketed? Penetration vs wound channel?

300gr Win Partition Gold or Remington 405gr JSP or?? Any good factory hard cast ( besides Garrett, not available in Canada as far as I know )

OKH

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:36 pm

I'd go with the 35 Remington over the 30-30. For closein work, I might take
the 44 over the 30-30, too. They'll all work, though.

Realistically, shoot what ya brung. Some others have made the real point -
shot placement is key with all of the above.

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:15 pm

Stretch, I have to say I LOVE your reply!! Mostly because I recently became the proud owner of a Marlin 336RC in .35, which is a real tack-driver, & I understand, kills out of all proportion to its caliber. I intend to use it this deer season to prove to myself its virtues. jd45

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:27 pm

jd45, you're obviously a man of taste and distinction.

I know a bigger hole in the critter you're hunting is generally better,
but I can't see needing a bigger hole than those 200 gr. CoreLokts
make in a black bear.

m.wun · Post by **m.wun** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:44 pm

Well from what I read these days you have to shoot bears with a cartridge as big
around as a 20 ga.shell necked down to 7mm with a surgical plastic laser bullet
designed for 99% weight retention with a 6-14 power scope,but I would opt for
the 44 with heavy bullets.Partialy because it holds 10 rounds vs. 4 or5.

KT-45 · Post by **KT-45** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:50 pm

If'n I'm intentionally hunting bear I'd take my Marlin 1895CB in .45-70 (405 grain semi-jacketed flat point over 50 grains of Reloader 7).

But to answer your question: When I'm woodsbumming in bear country (not hunting) I have a 7-1/2" Blackhawk chambered in .45 Colt on my hip. I load it with either 300 grain jacketed hollowpoints or 325 grain hard-cast lead. As both of these bullets are pushed by powder charges that would break a Colt I'll keep the load data to myself.

I recently acquired a Remington 870 Tactical in 12 gauge. Once I find a good shellholder sling for it I might try it out on a hike in the woods...see how it rides, if the bulk is worth it, etc. In bear country it would be stuffed with a mix of 000 and slugs. (propped-up next to the bed it's currently full of #4 buck)

dbateman · Post by **dbateman** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:57 pm

i would not fell under guned with ether 30-30 or 45lc but given the option
i would go for the 45lc for close i have alot of faith in the 45lc round
its a very good stopper and it holds more rounds...but the 30-30 will work to
cant comment on 44

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:30 am

from what I understand about bear hunting it's shooting quite close from a stand, so I would say go with the .44 - big hole, plenty of energy.

If you are setting up for a 200 yard shot then the 30-30 would make more sense.

35 Remington would give the best of both worlds.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:26 am

NO "Bahrs" in "Paradise" but plenty Deeer and Boars which can get over 500 pounds locally. I have, and still do own carbines in both 44 mag, and 30-30. If i'm hunting goats, deer, or sheep I'd go with the 30-30 Winchester... BUT if your target is Wild Boar, or Black Bear then stick with a hard cast large meplat bullet of 240 grain 1500 fps minimum.

Birdman · Post by **Birdman** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:48 am

I'll use my 44 because that's what I own. You can't go wrong with either.

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:15 am

Thanx for the kind words, stretch, (grin!)...... & ain't those 200gr RNCLs the HAMMER of THOR?!?! I'm usin em in ALL my reloads, by goomya! jd45

Whit Spurzon · Post by **Whit Spurzon** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:07 pm

Okanogan Hiker, Are you out-posted in North Central Washington?

I've been hunting that area with a Marlin 1894 CB in 45 colt. My hunting load is a 300 grain cast bullet (actually weighs closer to 320 when lubed and gas checked with the alloy I use) pushed to about 1250 fps. The only thing that has me rethinking that load is that my neighbor claims to have seen a Grizzly in the area and the nearby Forest Service Campground has signs posted warning of their presence.

My "ranch rifle" for my place over there is a 30-30.

I have a small Cinnamon colored Black Bear regularly using my property - feeding on berries mostly. Except for a few scat piles outside my door, he hasn't been a problem. Seems like there are lots of bears this year.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:38 pm

For hunting, either one is great. But for defense, just carry some Bear Spray.

bogie

KT-45 · Post by **KT-45** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:48 pm

Bogie35 wrote:For hunting, either one is great. But for defense, just carry some Bear Spray.

bogie

Obviously you haven't seen the post about bear scat.

I'll paraphrase: "Black bear scat has twigs in it and smells like nuts and berries. Griz scat has little bells in it and smells like pepper spray."

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:16 am

KT-45 wrote:
Bogie35 wrote:For hunting, either one is great. But for defense, just carry some Bear Spray.

bogie
Obviously you haven't seen the post about bear scat.

I'll paraphrase: "Black bear scat has twigs in it and smells like nuts and berries. Griz scat has little bells in it and smells like pepper spray."

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:20 am

Griff wrote:Bigger is better in my opinion when you couch the parameters in terms of defense. Faster is good, but big, slow heavy bullets impart more energy transfer to the object being struck.

However, shot placement is still number ONE!

+1 and Welcome.

Scott Young · Post by **Scott Young** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:13 am

now you are speaking my language when you mention .35rem. I own all three, but i have had an affair with the little 35 since i first purchased it years ago. i simply love killing things with it. that 200 grain corelokt is my go to bullet.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:16 am

Up to 75 yards, I'll take my .44 Mag in my Trapper. 13 Whitetails have met their demise, along with one Black Bear, and a nice Bull Elk up the Clark Fork in the Bitter Roots, all with my little .44 Mag chambered '94 Trapper loaded with 240 grain JSP's (NOT JHP's) with enough compressed H110 to come out of the barrel at 1800+fps. That being said, if'n ya don't have the capabilities to limit your distance, I'd say the .30-30 is just as deadly out to 'bout 125 yards (the .44 can be also, but you have to be able to have the instinctive shooting to allow for the 4-5" difference in drop). Or....just get a .444, then you have the best of both worlds right out to a couple hundred yards.

okanagan hiker · Post by **okanagan hiker** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:29 pm

Whit - I live in BC Canada

Old Time - how well did those 240 JSP bullets do? Expanded ok? What was the would channel in the bear like? Penetration?

OKH

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:57 pm

If you want the nostalgic Daniel Boone experience, I would suggest the
Springfield 1842 percussion .69 cal with the 742grain minni ball at 900 fps.

I wouldnt worry about repeat shots with muzzle loaders in this case.
After the recoil you might prefer to be mauled to another shot.

shdwlkr · Post by **shdwlkr** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:18 pm

If it where me I would use my 375 winchester with 280 grain lead bullet. Out of my 26 inch barrel I would think twice about not having enough gun. My other choice would be my 45-70 with 460 grain lead bullet. If I did my part there would be bear meat.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:29 pm

preventec47 wrote:If you want the nostalgic Daniel Boone experience, I would suggest the
Springfield 1842 percussion .69 cal with the 742grain minni ball at 900 fps.

I wouldnt worry about repeat shots with muzzle loaders in this case.
After the recoil you might prefer to be mauled to another shot.

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:27 am

Get a model 71. Do you hear me? A model 71!

Q

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:33 pm

okanagan hiker wrote:Well since I am wanting a new lever anyways.. the Marlin 1895 GG sounds good in 45-70

But my basic question remains... hard cast vs expanding jacketed? Penetration vs wound channel?

300gr Win Partition Gold or Remington 405gr JSP or?? Any good factory hard cast ( besides Garrett, not available in Canada as far as I know )

OKH

I agree with the GG selection, but will differ in the bullets you mentioned. I've had a lot of the Rem 405's seperate from the jacket, but never a speer 400gr jacketed.

To me the speer 400gr is one of the best compromises out there. As was said ANY of the rounds mentioned should kill a bear in a hunting scenario, but you mentioned defense, as in the bear is charging, his adrennilen is pumped, I'd go for heavyweight everytime.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:37 pm

I have both a 30-30 and a .44 mag of the Marlin variety. IMHO either is totally capable, personnally I like my 30-30 best. However I would opt to use the opportunity to explain to my wife that they are marginal at best and that I NEED to purchase a 45-70.

okanagan hiker · Post by **okanagan hiker** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:00 am

Handirifle... I will have a look at the speer 400 grain bullets

Horsesoldier... I guess I am just looking at the very small 30 cal hole that my 30-30 makes in the targets, vs the gigantic 73 cal hole of my 12 gauge! Havent used a 44 magnum for about 20 years.

I admit the 30-30 makes the dirt fly hitting the backstop, and penetrates the dirt ok, but seems to be sharpnel when I recover it.

I am really torn between the Puma 44 Magnum 16" ( about $600 )( 6 pounds ) and the Marlin 1895GG in 45-70 ( about $700 )( 7 pounds ). 44 has less power ( needed? ), less weight ( carried much vs shot little )

OKH

Curiousgb · Post by **Curiousgb** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:55 pm

Until LSI gets there stuff together I would stay far away from there 44mags.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:41 pm

okanagan hiker wrote:Whit - I live in BC Canada

Old Time - how well did those 240 JSP bullets do? Expanded ok? What was the would channel in the bear like? Penetration?

OKH

This is out of a Whitetail:

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:40 pm

Curiousgb wrote:Until LSI gets there stuff together I would stay far away from there 44mags.

LSI's guns are made by Rossi and according to Nate Kiowa Jones/Steve Young (our resident expert on the firearm) Rossi has the bores right, now.

okanagan hiker · Post by **okanagan hiker** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:26 am

Old Time Hunter... beautiful mushroom shape on that bullet. May I ask what brand?

It sounds like many would feel very comfy and confident with a 30-30 in their hands.

OKH

Curiousgb · Post by **Curiousgb** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:16 am

Hobie wrote:
Curiousgb wrote:Until LSI gets there stuff together I would stay far away from there 44mags.
LSI's guns are made by Rossi and according to Nate Kiowa Jones/Steve Young (our resident expert on the firearm) Rossi has the bores right, now.

That may be true now. But I purchased mine in Feb and it has been at LSI's repair facility since May 1st. And from little info I can get from LSI is "awaiting parts, maybe 60 more days, so sorry." I guess my point is unless you know the bore is right be careful.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:26 am

Speer 240 grain "JSP".

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:43 pm

Scott Young wrote:either! it is just a black bear. what ever will kill a deer will serve nicely for bear for hunting. if you are attacked then either. you will most likely get of one shot and that will probably not do you any good, and you will be mauled.

Hahahaha! I'll bet you're a great person to have at a sick person's bedside... "Get well; but I'm betting 3 to 1 that you won't make it through the night!"

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:24 pm

Guy's I know there are alot of rifle's that can take a bear, But since I own one I could not see my self out in bear country be it black bear or grizzly hunting with nothing less then a 45-70. Things could go bad and as many have noted there is a differents between killing a bear and stopping a bear.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:29 pm

Tennessee Hayre wrote:Guy's I know there are alot of rifle's that can take a bear, But since I own one I could not see my self out in bear country be it black bear or grizzly hunting with nothing less then a 45-70. Things could go bad and as many have noted there is a differents between killing a bear and stopping a bear.

-- What kind of bear do you own?

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:50 pm

JohndeFresno wrote:
Tennessee Hayre wrote:Guy's I know there are alot of rifle's that can take a bear, But since I own one I could not see my self out in bear country be it black bear or grizzly hunting with nothing less then a 45-70. Things could go bad and as many have noted there is a differents between killing a bear and stopping a bear.
-- What kind of bear do you own?

Cute!