New BP substitute - Blackhorn; anybody try it yet?

[Texican]

http://www.blackhorn209.com/home/

I read about it in the latest 'Guns' magazine. Great stuff, if you believe their press:

Blackhorn 209 is the first and only noncorrosive propellant made for muzzleloaders and black powder cartridges. It is engineered to consistently shoots at higher velocities and with greater accuracy than any other muzzleloader powder available today. In fact, if you compare the benefits of Blackhorn 209, you will quickly see there are 10 areas where Blackhorn 209 simply smokes the competition:

1. Superior Ballistics and Unbeatable Accuracy
2. Noncorrosive and Low Residue
3. No Swabbing Between Shots
4. Easy Breech Plug Removal
5. No Special Primers Required
6. Not Affected by Temperature or Humidity
7. Uniform Size - "Good to the last shot"
8. Immediate Cleaning Not Necessary
9. Cleans with Regular Solvents
10. Extended Shelf Life

At volume equivalents, Blackhorn 209 is ballistically superior to other muzzleloading propellants. It consistently delivers higher velocities and remarkable accuracy - something every shooter expects but has rarely experienced with other propellants. When using Blackhorn 209, your muzzleloader will consistently perform at peak levels of accuracy. With the industry's lowest standard deviations, you can count on Blackhorn 209 for precise performance and repeatable results.

I bet it even grows hair on a bowling ball...

I do like how they say it cleans with regular oil based solvents (no water required) and am curious how it stacks up against Pioneer accuracy-wise. It sounds like just the thing for fun with my .38-55.

Anybody try it yet?

[rjohns94]

first i heard of it sounds promising

[Last Spike]

I plan to try it in my 40-82 and 32 WS to see how it does.

[Don McDowell]

Exactly what would the benefit of this new wonder stuff be over smokeless

[Duff L Bagg]

oops see below.

[Duff L Bagg]

I am not fully certain of this but I think that Blackhorn 209 is Black Mag 3 repackaged. When I first heard about Blackhorn 209 and its properties it sounded a lot like black Mag 3. Now don't get me wrong, I really do like Black Mag 3 it is by far the best black powder substitute that I have ever used.
I did a search using "Blackhorn 209 Blackmag3" as my search criteria I cam up with this page.
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/LoadsBallistics.html
When you compare Blackhorn 209 and Black mag 3 you see very small differences in the two powders. The main difference that I see is that Blackhorn 209 dosnt recomend their powder be used in a sidelock smoke pole. But it should work just fine in cartridges, giving almost full cases and very uniform pressures and velosities. Now I have to get me greasy mits on a can of it.


This group was shot form a Lyman Great plains Rifle with a 390grn Hornady Great Plains bullet over 90grns Black Mag 3 ignited with a musket cap. At 50 yards using open sights

[don Tomás]

Also, anybody know if you can use a smokeless type bullet lube? They recommend clean up with petroleum based solvents and not water.

Note the footnote on some of the .45-70 loads:(2) NOT SUITABLE FOR TRAP DOOR SPRINGFIELD LOAD
Tom

BLACKHORN 209 METALLIC CARTRIDGE LOADS

BLACKHORN 209 vs. TRIPLE SEVEN

[Don McDowell]

Thanks for the links. Looking at the pressure data they included, the stuff gets scarier all the time. Seems to run an awful lot of pressure
So I'm still not seeing any advantage when compared to regular ol smokeless or, common black powder.

[Paladin]

Thanks for the info, can’t wait to trade my issue MP-5 in for my muzzle loader.

[Doc Hudson]

Who needs a substitute when we still have blackpowder available?

I've been shooting blackpowder since the late 1970's, and there are times when I go through more blackpowder than smokeless powder. I don't have a problem cleaning my guns, and I've yet to experience a problem on the range that a damp patch wouldn't cure.

On top of everything else, I've yet to encounter a blackpowder substitute that didn't stink. I love the smell of blackpowder and the substitutes just don't cut it in the smell department.

You fellers that want it are welcome to my share of the substitutes, I'll stick with the real deal, the stuff that has been putting meat on the ground and adjusting badguy attitudes for nearly 1,000 years.

Smokeless powder is just a passing fad!

[Texican]

Thanks for the links. Looking at the pressure data they included, the stuff gets scarier all the time. Seems to run an awful lot of pressure
So I'm still not seeing any advantage when compared to regular ol smokeless or, common black powder.

Not so much of an 'advantage' per se, unless the accuracy claims are true. I enjoy the 'true black' on occasion with my ROA's, Enfield Musketoon, etc. However, the idea of sending up clouds of white smoke with each shot and not having to climb into the tub with my guns at the end of the day is appealing.

As a good friend of mine observed: ""Roughing it' used to be spending a week or two afield with nothing but a knapsack, now 'roughing it' is a hotel without room service."

I'm not that far gone yet, but I would like to play at games like SASS Frontier Cartridge, BPCR, and Cowboy Silhouette with a minimum of cleaning fuss afterwards. As hot as the powder appears, I'd like to try it in some .45 Cowboy specials for my revolvers; I'll bet they would be about just perfect.

[Don McDowell]

Accuracy claims probably won't hold up, they never have, not even from when we were all told Pyrodex was the answer to the worlds problems.
I get the chuckles when I read about how hard clean up with bp is. Fact of the matter its really no bother, and its not necessary to use anything that you wouldn't want to ingest internally , can't say that for smokeless, or this newest savior of the worlds black powder problems.
When shooting "black powder" it just don't get any less expensive than the real deal, no matter if you're shooting muzzleloader or cartridge gun.

[jnyork]

Who needs a substitute when we still have blackpowder available?

I've been shooting blackpowder since the late 1970's, and there are times when I go through more blackpowder than smokeless powder. I don't have a problem cleaning my guns, and I've yet to experience a problem on the range that a damp patch wouldn't cure.

On top of everything else, I've yet to encounter a blackpowder substitute that didn't stink. I love the smell of blackpowder and the substitutes just don't cut it in the smell department.

You fellers that want it are welcome to my share of the substitutes, I'll stick with the real deal, the stuff that has been putting meat on the ground and adjusting badguy attitudes for nearly 1,000 years.

Smokeless powder is just a passing fad!

What he said!! Trouble with most if not all of these substitutes is they will not work very well, if at all, in flintlocks ( REAL muzzleloaders )

[Old Time Hunter]

Don't see the need. Same load specs as a fast smokeless only with smoke??? They stop making Swiss or Goex? I must be missing something here, since when is it more advantageous to have to utilize petroleum based solvents to clean instead of water out of a pond? I just don't get it.

[Ben_Rumson]

Elimination of the fouling/crud ring in a M/L rifle and resulting projectile migration /accuracy & safety issues is a nice benefit from the new powder that would add to the fun of continuous plinking ... I shoot my BP cartridge rifles with slow for application smokeless loads, so I'm happy to find a bulky powder that well fills the old BP cases with no fouling issues to deal with that give low SDs....So what if it smokes....

[Griff]

I believe Duff is correct. Same stuff as Black Mag, just new marketing company & label. IME, the hyperbole on most subs doesn't hold up in the "real" world. The best of the lot IMO is 777™, I can use reduced loads over real BP and regular components. Cleanup is about the same as real BP; hot water, dry patch and lube for storage. The ability to use regu;ar lube on yer boolits w/777™ is also a +.

All the subs have seemed to use the same pitch, "less fouling & no-corrosion." I think most have failed on both counts. But, that's my opinion, worth the cost of signing up here... or less.

[don Tomás]

FYI, Powder Valley Inc has 10oz jugs for $25.98, but don't forget to add in the HazMat fees. I've ordered primers, Unique (1,4 & 8 Lb available) and Trail Boss (9oz & 5LB available) from these folks with good luck. For me, the HazMat fee is less than what the gas would cost me to drive to buy this stuff at a store who's prices are probably 1/3 to 1/2 higher than Powder Valley, not to mention not giving our idiot RINO governor more taxes to pi$$ away...
Tom

(I won't mention that the store in question is Herb Bauer's in Fresno, so don't ask... )

[Ben_Rumson]

FWIW The reviews at Midway and Cabela's are mostly 5 stars for the stuff..One thing I haven't heard mentioned for cartridge shooters is if the cases have to be cleaned like they do with BP and the other BP subs...

[don Tomás]

FWIW The reviews at Midway and Cabela's are mostly 5 stars for the stuff..One thing I haven't heard mentioned for cartridge shooters is if the cases have to be cleaned like they do with BP and the other BP subs...

I've got an email into the Blackhorn folks asking about what bullet lube to use, i.e., SP (BP) type -vs- smokeless type lube. haven't heard back yet. They recommend "normal" (non-water) cleaners like Hoppe #9 for gun cleanup, so I'm assuming I won't have to haul around a jug of soapy water to drop fired BP cases into...

Also, no one has mentioned if there is a BP type boom & BP type smoke. If not, then might as well shoot light smokeless loads in the Trapdoor, which just isn't any fun...
Tom

[Don McDowell]

Oh my 26$ for not even 3/4 of a pound , that puts it way past the cost of bp, and quite a few good smokeless bp cartridge powders. Just how much per round is that stuff going to cost, so's you can clean your guns with chemicals.

[don Tomás]

Oh my 26$ for not even 3/4 of a pound , that puts it way past the cost of bp, and quite a few good smokeless bp cartridge powders. Just how much per round is that stuff going to cost, so's you can clean your guns with chemicals.

As I understand it, this stuff is measured by weight and not by volume and has more omph to it so less is used. But you're right, it will cost more per shot than BP, but look at all the money you're going to save on your water bill!
Tom

[Don McDowell]

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Let's see. Let's go through these one by one.

1. Superior Ballistics and Unbeatable Accuracy
Better than Swiss? I doubt it.
2. Noncorrosive and Low Residue
Real Black Powder is nowhere near as corrosive as most shooters think
3. No Swabbing Between Shots
Using good bullets with plenty of BP compatible lube I can shoot Goex or Schuetzen all day long at a cowboy match without swabbing my barrel or wiping my cylinders.
4. Easy Breech Plug Removal
Wouldn't know.
5. No Special Primers Required
No special primers needed with real BP either. I usually use Federals or Winchesters, non-Magnum.
6. Not Affected by Temperature or Humidity
My BP sits for months at a time in my basement
7. Uniform Size - "Good to the last shot"
8. Immediate Cleaning Not Necessary
Neither is it with real BP as long as you don't use corrosive primers.
9. Cleans with Regular Solvents
Let me get this straight. Somebody would rather clean with a noxious solvent like Hoppes rather than plain old water?
10. Extended Shelf Life
Real BP has been stored for over a hundred years, and still fired.

Don't get me wrong, there is a real need for BP substitutes, especially for those who live in areas where it is not legal to buy it or store it. BP subs can be sold alongside regular Smokeless propellants. I have to drive over an hour to buy real Black Powder over the shelf anywhere. But too many have been fooled by the myths about how troublesome it is to shoot real Black Powder.

And you don't need to dump your shells into a jug of soapy water immidiately after firing them either. Sometime the same day is plenty of time.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I agree with Don and Driftwood and others who say use the REAL THING!!
Also the ad I read said to use 209 primers with this new powder. 209`s are not legal in Washington state.

[Doc Hudson]

Howdy
10. Extended Shelf Life
Real BP has been stored for over a hundred years, and still fired.

I wonder how well it would stand up to being submerged in the Tallapoosa River for an hour?

I once had a canoe overturn in the Tallapoosa River and my old .36 Navy Colt were in the water for the better part of an hours. Being a lazy cuss and not looking forward to pulling the bullets from the cylinder, I decided to try firing away the loads first. Every chamber fired. Granted, a couple were very squibish, but all fired. The chamber mouths were sealed with grease, but the caps were just press fitted. I wonder how any of these newfangled fancy pants substitutes would have faired in the same situation.

And yes, I've heard of rifles and cannon that had been loaded for 100 years or more firing without hesitation.

[don Tomás]

I heard back from the Blackhorn 209 folks regarding what bullet lube to use. Their response is below and kinda what I figured.

I shoot a Trapdoor carbine ("Bannerman Sons" type) and have been loading rounds using Goex (BP). Clean up for me is swabbing with coffee cans of hot soapy water followed by swabbing with hot clean water followed by trying to get all the water out of places it doesn't belong and then finish up with a light lube. It's messy so I do it outside. Cleaning cases means jugs of hot soapy water followed by jugs of hot clean water followed by air drying over night. Shooting BP is an absolute hoot, so cleanup is really not that big a pain. I have shot light smokeless rounds (using Unique & Trail Boss) which worked well, but without the "boom" and all that smoke, just wasn't much fun.

I am going to try this Blackhorn 209. Being able to shoot the less expensive smokeless lubed bullets will help on the per round cost. No, not going to cast my own - no, not going to pan lube my own. Anyway, I'll let you know what happens at the range (if it ever rains again and we can finally start shooting without setting the forest on fire) and hope that other folks will also report their results.

Hey, if it doesn't workout, I can always go back to BP and use my left over Blackhorn 209 to start my winter fires...
Tom
(Hmmm... I was just thinking. I've got it in my mind that I must have a Guide Gun. I just couldn't bring myself to fire BP out of a modern levergun because I would feel the need to completely disassemble after each shooting session. I bet this Blackhorn stuff would be fun...)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Anderson" <keith@ramshot.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:40:00 -0700
Subject: Lube

Tom,
First of I want to thank you for your interest in Blackhorn 209.
We did find that smokeless powder lube worked slightly better than black powder lube as it doesn't make quite the mess that black powder lube does. There is no need to soften fouling as in black powder and that is what black powder lubes basic function is.
I hope this answers your question.

Keith Anderson
Western Powders Ballistic Lab

[Bluehawk]

WOW who taught some of these people how to clean BP guns ? COFFEE CANS cans plural ??????? to clean the guns ??????????
I wet patches with cleaner and clean like any other rifle. I have never ,and have never ever seen anyone use coffee cans full of water to clean BP guns . Close as I MAY come to that is my one Flintlock 54 Cal when done shooting that I put a plug ( very expensive round toothpick ) into the touch hole and then fill the barrel with warm soapy water for as long as it takes for me to finish a beer. I then let the water drain out through the touch hole then swab with about 4 to 5 patches , then run about 2 or 3 dry patches through the barrel then shoot a patch with WD40 wipe it down the barrel a few times and im done
I DO submerge my cases from my several 45/70s my 38/40 and 38/55 and 38/56 cases into a dish of water after firing . NOT when im hunting though . They get put into water after I return.
I have never used JUGS of water to clean cases and I have some case's that I have been firing with BP for over 20 years .
I have some remnants of cans of Goex from over ten years and even though I do NOT use them for my hunting loads I use them for practice firing and they go off just fine with great accuracy results.
MOST long range shooters of BP cartridge guns PREFER BP just for the higher degree of accuracy over anyform of smokeless
BP gives a much smaller deviation from shot to shot of velocity than any form of smokeless or substitute
HMMM lets see just loked up on Midway just to see closest comparison I can see there OF what is in stock , Cast performance bullets 300 grainers with smokeless lube at 27.49 per 50 ; Montana precision 300 grainers with SPG at 23.99 per 50 That sure does look like a savings to me in the SMOKELESS over BP lube bullets. NOW in all fariness the Cast performance are GC bullets so they MAY be a little more expensive than the plain based due to that, but not by that much so I still dont see the savings .

[don Tomás]

WOW who taught some of these people how to clean BP guns ? COFFEE CANS cans plural ??????? to clean the guns ??????????

Sorry, can't speak for most of "these people" and can only speak for myself. Had an old collector and shooter of original classic arms teach me the method that had always served him well (well, up until the time he passed on, anyway). Seems like you misunderstood about my COFFEE CANS (sorry, my cap lock button momentarily got stuck) full of water. The swabs are simply swished around in the COFFEE CANS (there goes the cap lock again) of water, the water is not poured on or through the weapon. The muzzle is also inserted into the water and the tight fitting swab is pulled from muzzle to breach causing a siphon action that draws the water up into the barrel.

If you had been around 20 years ago when I started shooting BP, I might be using your method now, but it seems you were missing that day...
Tom

[AJMD429]

How about the powders recommended for the Savage ML10? They include

ALLIANT 2400
IMR-SR4759
AA XMP5744
VIHTAVUORI N110
VIHTAVUORI N120
and even
IMR-4227

http://www.sav10ml.com/pages/load_data/table1.htm

I realize only Savage has tested and sanctioned their use for their ML10, but I wonder if anyone else has used them?

I REALLY hate ANY powder that is "corrosive" and nostalgic or not, if these can be used in muzzleloaders, I'm all for it.





http://www.sav10ml.com/pages/load_data/table1.htm

[Doc Hudson]

WOW who taught some of these people how to clean BP guns ? COFFEE CANS cans plural ??????? to clean the guns ??????????.

FWIW, for the last 28 years, I've been cleaning blackpowder with hot soapy and water. With both my percussion rifle, and cap-and-ball revolver, I remove the barrels, put the breech end in a pan of near boiling hot soapy water and swab the bore until the water is too black to be useful. It generally takes two and occasionally three pans of water before the water quits turning black or grey.

When I had my Rolling Block, I'd stick the muzzle in the hot water and swab from the breech, same drill.

Were I to use blackpowder in a cartridge revolver or repeating rifle, I'd use the same method you use

[Ben_Rumson]

I started out using the hot soapy water & rinsed with hot water method and it does well clean a barrel that has BP fired in it and the heat absorbed by the barrel from the hot water made the barrel dry off nicely...But I noticed that when I ran a DRY patch thru the bore immediately afterwards to make sure things were dry my patch came back out with a slight orange tint on it..a Flash Rust Film on degreased bare steel.. I went to using barely warm soapy water followed by warm water rinse and dried with patches gun came out just as clean but the flash rust film never appeared again. I've had great results just pouring plain cool water thru the bore of my Win 73 until it ran pretty clear..then swabbed with wet patches until they came out clean.
I'd still like to try the Blackhorn stuff in my 50-70 for the full case and clean burning, though I have a great load for it with IMR 4350, however that load leaves unburnt kernels of powder along the bottom of the bore.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I used to use the hot soapy water routine with my cap & ball pistols when I was a kid in the 1960s. I used to get flash rust too, so I was never happy using plain water to clean BP residue. The water always seemed to find nooks and crannies to hide in without evaporating. Of course a single shot rifle like a Trapdoor is basically just a pipe. Far fewer corners for water droplets to cling to.

I have been using Murphy's Mix for several years now with all my BP guns. Equal parts Murphy's Oil Soap, Rubbing Alcohol, and drugstore Hydrogen Peroxide. The Alcohol is about 20% water by volume, and the Peroxide is about 97% water. It is the water that does the real cleaning. The alcohol acts as a drying agent, causing the water to evaporate more quickly. The oil soap leaves an oily residue behind once the water evaporates that coats the metal and prevents rust. And that tiny 3% of Peroxide, diluted to 1% in the final mixture, creates a little detergent fizzing action to help lift off any stubborn hard caked fouling.

I use this stuff for all my Black Powder guns; 45 Colt revolvers, 44-40 Uberti Henry and '73 rifle as well as original Marlin 1894 and Winchester 1892, 45-70 Sharps, and several SXS shotguns. The beauty of this stuff is, you don't have to swab it all out. Once the water evaporates, the oil film left behind will protect the metal from rusting. As a matter of fact, with my Colts I work some down into the action. Black Powder fouling that gets infused with oil looses it's ability to suck water vapor out of the air, and will no longer cause rust.

I clean my cowboy BP guns with this stuff every time, I take them apart once a year to remove the black, oily guck from down inside. There is always plenty of black, oily guck. There is never any rust.

[Old Time Hunter]

Jeez! You guys sure go through a lot. Here is my .02, if I am in the field I swab down my fouled barrels with wet citrus patches, two or three usually do it, then a couple of dry patches followed by a patch with bore butter on it. Takes maybe five -ten minutes and I am done for the night. My B & C revolver's get the citrus treatment if I am just tak'n a break for an hour or day, otherwise I pull 'em apart(two minutes), take the wood handles off and stick 'em in the dishwasher (along with my BP cartridges). When my wife yells at me the next day or so for messing up her dishwasher, I generally take 'em out and lightly oil all the surfaces and bore. My Trapdoors (all original, even a '73 made in '76 with a high arch breech block that retains the original firing pin spring!) for putt'n away cleaning is muzzle down in a bucket of hot soapy water (with a couple dashes of Murphy's Oil Soap) swab'n from the breach side (flexible rod I use, plastic coated too), then rinse out with plain out water, finishing with dry patches and a couple final with bore butter. It's been working fine for thirty plus years so if somebody knows it's wrong please correct me in hurry, cause there sure ain't no rust or pit'n yet and I sure don't want it to start!

[Grizzly Adams]

Hmmmmm.......a BP sub with all of the disadvantages of smokeless and BP, but none of the advantages of real BP. Yep, I think I will go get some of that!

[Don McDowell]

Hmmmmm.......a BP sub with all of the disadvantages of smokeless and BP, but none of the advantages of real BP. Yep, I think I will go get some of that!

Amazing ain't it how one well constructed sentence can sum up 2 pages of lengthy posts.

[Doc Hudson]

Hmmmmm.......a BP sub with all of the disadvantages of smokeless and BP, but none of the advantages of real BP. Yep, I think I will go get some of that!

Most excellently well said!!!

[Texican]

For all the talk of how to clean BP guns and the 'noxious' petroleum solvents, would like to offer my standard cleaning protocol after shooting smokeless loads:

1) open action

2) spray Break Free on bore snake

3) pull bore snake through bore

4) close action

5) wipe exterior metal with cloth

No soapy water, no coffee cans, no drying. I will try the Murphy's Mix next time I bring out my Enfield though. Good info on that.

I appreciate the atavistic pursuit of reliving the good ole days but haven't dedicated myself to all of the required full-immersion rituals apparently some feel are required for complete enjoyment. The idea of a proper 'Boom' with loads of smoke but requiring a bare minimum of maintenance still appeals to me. I suspect as do most the advertising claims are inflated and my musings of 'wouldn't it be fun if' not withstanding: I'd still like to hear from y'all if one of us has the chance to use it (particularly in a cartridge gun).

[Ben_Rumson]

+1 Texican!

[don Tomás]

...The idea of a proper 'Boom' with loads of smoke but requiring a bare minimum of maintenance still appeals to me...

Amazing what your thread started, Texican, who'da thunk it. What you just said sums it up very nicely. I have some on order and will be trying it out in about a month (or when ever it decides to rain again). But I fear as you do regarding inflated advertising claims. All the hype when Pyrodex first came out comes to mind. Again, thanks for the heads up...
Tom

[Texican]

I'll look forward to your review, thanks.