Strength comparisons for Marlin, Henry and Rossi in 45-70?

[Rusty]

If you ever doubted how strong those Handi Rifles are check this out,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKdAY30tWxg

[sore shoulder]

Rusty, I never doubted it, especially after they chambered them in .500 S&W. Too bad they aren't made anymore.

[Griff]

Rusty, I never doubted it, especially after they chambered them in .500 S&W. Too bad they aren't made anymore.

Isn't the new Henry single shot essentially the same gun?

[Rusty]

Rusty, I never doubted it, especially after they chambered them in .500 S&W. Too bad they aren't made anymore.

Isn't the new Henry single shot essentially the same gun?

From what I see they look pretty much the same.

[AJMD429]

Rusty, I never doubted it, especially after they chambered them in .500 S&W. Too bad they aren't made anymore.

I snagged a used one in 500 S&W for about a hundred bucks; came with a box of 24 rounds and one empty. Scope-mount had drag-marks on it so I think someone got a bad case of scope-eye... Took the mount off, put on a Williams WGRS aperture sight, and got me a good 'slug gun' for Indiana deer... .

[sore shoulder]

Rusty, I never doubted it, especially after they chambered them in .500 S&W. Too bad they aren't made anymore.

I snagged a used one in 500 S&W for about a hundred bucks; came with a box of 24 rounds and one empty. Scope-mount had drag-marks on it so I think someone got a bad case of scope-eye... Took the mount off, put on a Williams WGRS aperture sight, and got me a good 'slug gun' for Indiana deer... .

those are going for $500 on GB now. A bare receiver is $99.

[AJMD429]

Rusty, I never doubted it, especially after they chambered them in .500 S&W. Too bad they aren't made anymore.

I snagged a used one in 500 S&W for about a hundred bucks; came with a box of 24 rounds and one empty. Scope-mount had drag-marks on it so I think someone got a bad case of scope-eye... Took the mount off, put on a Williams WGRS aperture sight, and got me a good 'slug gun' for Indiana deer... .

those are going for $500 on GB now. A bare receiver is $99.

Uh-oh.....don't tell my wife....!!!

[sore shoulder]

A used Handi-rifle is going for more than a new 336 or Savage bolt action etc.

[KWK]

Whelen, in his pre-WW-I book, wrote that factory .45-70 ran as high as 25,000 psi, as measured by what ever form of crusher they used then. I recall this included the heavy BP loads of the day. This figure no doubt explains why SAAMI is 28,000 psi today.

However, I recall Pearce writing in either Handloader or Rifle that modern factory ammo is loaded to under 20,000 psi due to the many weak 1800s guns (various makers) in circulation.

Any rifle made today is certain to be safe at 32,000 psi, for that is the rating at CIP (which in this case is a bit higher than SAAMI). The three rifles in question can likely take a little more, but you're already in the "ouch" category, so why bother. In Whelen's book, he noted the hunters then felt the .45-70-500 at 1200 fps was enough for all N.A. game, and that can be reached at less than SAAMI pressures.

[oldebear1950]

I called Henry a couple years ago, and the folks there said their henry lever guns in 45-70 will shoot the same factory loads as the Marlin, Marlin/Ruger rifles.
It is my experience none of them recommend reloads or hand loaded ammo, even though everyone does it.
It is my opinion that as long as handloads are kept to standard loading pressures, everything will be ok.
DO NOT OVERLOAD ANY CARTRIDGE.

[oldebear1950]

In most of their loads for 45-70 Garrett cartridge company states that. But most of their loads are kept to standard recognized pressures.
Most of their 45-70 loads reflect most modern rifles are safe to use H&R/NEF, all the modern 1886s, Ruger #1 and #3, Marlin, Marlin/Rugers, Henry, ROSSI, and some of the newer sharps versons

[oldebear1950]

a couple of years ago, when I first purchased my Henry 45-70, I called the factory and was told the Henry 45-70 would handle any load the Marlin 1895 would handle. Granted they were all talking factory loads.
Buffalo Bore and GARRETT bullets list most of their loads and included in recommended rifles for most of their loads are the Marlin 1895, Henry, SB2 H&R/NEF handi rifles, the Ruger # 1 and $ 3, all versions of the 1886 Winchester style.
Those loads are listed in the 35000 psi range.
They are not over loaded and comply with standard SAAMI levels.
Most, if not all of those rifles will actually hanle up to pressures of the .243 and .308 winchester levels.
I would assume the new ROSSI R95s will handle the same levels.
The Marlin/Ruger 1895s, the Henrys, and the ROSSI R95s are all basicly the same action, and from what I have been told and read will handle the same loads.
The sinle shots I listed and the Siamese Mauser converted to 45-70 will all handle stouter loads

[Safestuffer]

What always puzzles me is why people continue to want to push guns up to and past their normal levels? All three of the guns mentioned will handle the major factory ammunition made, and kill anything in North America with ease. So why do people want to see how far they can push them, and attempt to blow a good gun up?

A good question for Elmer Keith. After all, what the hell did he know?

Elmer Keith had a problem and was looking for an answer. Factory loads in available calibers were very weak compared to today, and he lived in a pioneering era where smokeless powder and developing metallurgy allowed experimentation far in excess of the norms and standards set by blackpowder and iron.

We have all that now, there is no point in pushing the current boundaries because the current boundaries are already far in excess of necessity

That being said,
Look at what lever action was used for the .460 S&W magnum. There is only one design that could handle the 60k+ pressure

Marlin and Henry are the same action, Henry just copied Marlin. There are really only two lever action .45-70's, the Marlin design and the Winchester. Of the two, the Winchester action is stronger as designed and can be engineered to be significantly stronger than the Marlin design, as was done to handle the .460.

[marlinman93]

Marlin rifles in .45-70 were based on the 336 action, as were those in .450 Marlin Express. That's a 43,500 psi chamber pressure, so the Marlin is certainly strong enough. If any failed it's always because some person tried to push their Marlin beyond factory safe levels.

[wvfarrier]

My JM Marlin Cowboy 45 colt locks up with loads that my winchester eats like candy.

[piller]

I am not above using a bolt action when I need higher pressure than my Marlin can handle. Seems to me that a decent .30-30 load is enough in my Marlin.

[1972RedNeck]

It falls short of the 1886

Some, but not by much. Buffalo Bore doesn't see any difference between Marlin, JapChester-1886, Rossi Rio Grands, and a couple others.
Using various loads of H-4198 I've loaded 405s to 2000, and 300s to 2200....per a Chrony.
Buffalo Bore will never say what powder they use. Go read what info, and rifle recommendations they DO publish.

Don't try these at home until you've done the reading and research, and own a chrony. Even then, YMMV.
All those killer loads are unnecessary, anyway. 405s @ 16-1700 or 300s @ 1900 are not unduly harsh and will do just fine. Heck, GreenBox 405 Trapdoor loads will kill anything in CONUS.

I load 405 gr bullets to 2300 fps in my japchester 86...

Thumps on both ends.

[marlinman93]

What always puzzles me is why people continue to want to push guns up to and past their normal levels? All three of the guns mentioned will handle the major factory ammunition made, and kill anything in North America with ease. So why do people want to see how far they can push them, and attempt to blow a good gun up?

A good question for Elmer Keith. After all, what the hell did he know?

Not going to debate Elmer Keith, but he did damage some good guns trying to develop hot loads.

[marlinman93]

What always puzzles me is why people continue to want to push guns up to and past their normal levels? All three of the guns mentioned will handle the major factory ammunition made, and kill anything in North America with ease. So why do people want to see how far they can push them, and attempt to blow a good gun up?

A good question for Elmer Keith. After all, what the hell did he know?

Not to mention our own Paco Kelly (go to the articles section), and someone a few of you may have heard of P.O. Ackley.

In any event, no one was trying to blow up a gun, just find its full potential. You know, like those cars you like to soup up MM.

PO Ackley had no problem damaging barrels or guns. He had a gun shop here in Southern Oregon, so when he blew one up developing his Ackley Improved cartridges it just went in the scrap heap and he started over. I have a good friend whose father worked for Ackley back then, and quit because he felt what he was doing was pushing the limits of safety at times. He didn't have much nice to say about PO Ackley.

[1972RedNeck]

PO Ackley had no problem damaging barrels or guns. He had a gun shop here in Southern Oregon, so when he blew one up developing his Ackley Improved cartridges it just went in the scrap heap and he started over. I have a good friend whose father worked for Ackley back then, and quit because he felt what he was doing was pushing the limits of safety at times.

While I have no doubt that is the case, if people weren't willing to take a chance and push the limits, we would still be using black powder muzzle loaders.

Actually, we would just have pointy sticks.

There is always risk that comes before reward.

[AJMD429]

.
If I use a 45-70 I generally figure lobbing that heavy and wide bullet will be plenty for knocking down any game animal I'm going to shoot, so anything much over 1200-1400 fps is only helpful in that the trajectory flattens some so hitting the target without precise ranging is easier.

If I need more horsepower I'm probably going to go with my 500 S&W levergun anyway, as it lobs an even wider bullet a bit faster, in a design proofed for that higher-pressure cartridge.

If that is still not enough punch of flat enough of a trajectory, out would come the 375 Ruger, and if that isn't enough I'm just gonna stay home...!

Now if I 'only had one gun' and it was a 45-70, I'd still feel pretty confident the mid-range loads (as opposed to 'vintage' loads or 'Ruger-only' loads) would do pretty much anything if I use the right bullet and actually hit the target with it.

Having said that, I do understand why the experimenters want to push limits...they are the reason we have all these modern choices. The only thing is - if you plan to push limits, you have to anticipate sometimes finding out you exceeded the limits, and something will go boom.

[marlinman93]

PO Ackley had no problem damaging barrels or guns. He had a gun shop here in Southern Oregon, so when he blew one up developing his Ackley Improved cartridges it just went in the scrap heap and he started over. I have a good friend whose father worked for Ackley back then, and quit because he felt what he was doing was pushing the limits of safety at times.

While I have no doubt that is the case, if people weren't willing to take a chance and push the limits, we would still be using black powder muzzle loaders.

Actually, we would just have pointy sticks.

There is always risk that comes before reward.

Cant say I agree with this thinking. Things can always be pushed a little and stay within safe ranges. It's not necessary to push things to unsafe limits to be rewarded. When people start overloading guns and cases begin to have sticky extraction then continue to push it, it's a sign they're reckless, not that the gun is weak.