Black Powder VS. Substitutes

[BYork]

Black powder has become a little hard to come by lately so I have started to look into the substitutes like Pyrodex and 777. Does anybody have any experience with those especially in cartridge loads like the 45-70?

[hfcable]

777 works very well for me in the 45/70. use equivalent volumes [ not weights] and leaves very little residue. good accuracy in several lever guns and in trapdoor rifles [ repros ]

[765x53]

Pyrodex is all I've ever used in my caplocks. I don't have a flintlock and black powder is too hard to find. I have never had any complaints. Of course, I thoroughly clean my guns with water as soon as I come from the range.

[FLINT]

I don't have any experience with BP substitutes in cartridge loads so this may not be applicable or helpful.

However, in my muzzleloader, I switched to blackhorn several years ago and will never go back. so vastly superior anything else I used before. Price doubled a couple years ago and I'll keep paying whatever they ask, especially since I only shoot a couple / few shots per year so a can will last me several years. In my experience, it is more accurate, more reliable, and way cleaner/easy to clean.

[jeepnik]

I like Pyrodex, but have to admit I only use the pellets. Being lazy I like the pellets, especially in revolvers. They don't make pellets for anything smaller than 44/45 caliber. Never understood that, there are lots of .31 & .36 shooters out there, not to mention .32 rifles.

[6pt-sika]

I actually shoot H4198 in my ML . If I were forced to use something that smoked like the regs in FL say I’d use 777 . I used Purodex over forty years ago and have never liked that stuff I truely think it’s more corrosive than BP . And with that being said the only thing I ever used BP in was an original A.B. Smith 36 cal halfstock percussion longrifle that was made 1845-1855 . Well and in the three contemporary longrifles I had (all flinders) . I’d say 30-35 years ago a company called Black Canyon came out with honest to goodness non-corrosive BP substitute then they turned into or were bought out by Cleanshot which ended up going away at what time 777 came out . And of course I went with 777 . I tried the pellets some but I never cared for them preferring granulated . But when I go hunting I carry maybe ten pre measured loads of powder so it’s not a hindrance . I don’t care to use BP or Pyrodex in anything of mine and I’m well aware many like that stuff but I’m not one of those .

[Griff]

Pyrodex is simply a rusting agent that happens to burn. Look up it's MSDS and look at its ingredients and warnings about its environmental hazards. I used it until 1988 when sitting around the campfire with Mike Venturino at End of Trail that year. And he described what it produces in its fouling. My layman's understanding is that it contains significant amounts of sulfuric acid. Every gun I've shot it out of has required multiple cleanings over a period of days. Real black powder only requires water to clean... everything else used is fluff. Yes, it needs to be dried thoroughly afterward, and a light coat of a protective oil will preserve your pristine barrel forever. Use the same method after shooting Pyrodex will result in new flash rust after several hours to a day.

Blackhorn 209 is a nitrocellulose based gunpowder, ergo, simply a very dirty smokeless powder. Okay, a smokeless powder with additives to produce the smoke. If you shoot most any of the formal organizations' BP shooting competitions, it is usually banned.

A very good substitute I've found is APP. It's marketed under several names... I shoot a lot of cowboy action matches and almost exclusively shoot in the Frontiersman category, using Colt 1851 pistols with Swiss 3F, but load my 45 rifle and 12 gauge shotgun with APP. The neat thing is that a black powder compatible lube is not required. So you can use any commercially available cast bullet, & jacketed or powder coated bullets sans lube.

777 is fine, but is more energetic than real black powder and may require reduction of load depending on the firearm's pressure limits. While all of my firearms are basically modern in materials, and I shoot light charges of black in them, experimenting to have the same velocities and recoil level with 777 is moot for me. BP is still available, while not as cheap as it was just a few short years ago, it is out on the market.

While Goex is still unavailable, Swiss, Schuetzen, Wano are still available thru both retail outlets and mail order houses. Graf's in-house powder is also still available. Depending on your community's ordinances, ordering on-line in larger quantities is significantly cheaper than buying individual pounds at retail shops. If you belong to a club, see about going together with several members to get that quantity discount.

[marlinman93]

I'd switch to 4198 if I was doing it again. That's all I use and at BP velocities 4198 operates at lower pressures than BP does. My .45-70 load is around 19,000 psi and extremely accurate!

[coyote nose]

My experience is opposite Griffs regarding pyrodex. I did THOROUGH testing of BP vs Pyrodex in the early 2000s (777 wasn't around at the time). After testing about 30 firearms over those years I finally stopped testing as the score was 29 or so to 1 in favor of Pyrodex. The 1 BP winner was a 45-70 trapdoor (one of I think 5 trapdoors I tested) that definitely shot tighter with BP, but only for the first half dozen shots. After that Pyrodex RS shot better with the dirty bore. Griff is correct that it needs thorough cleaning with water. HOT water. Scrub well. HOT water again. Scrub well. Dry. Oil. As with all BP guns, keep the bore oiled. I live in humid NE Ohio and every few months run an oily patch through the bores if they have not been shot for awhile. Before the next shooting session I degrease with a patch of isopropyl alcohol and am good to go. Some of my guns have been in my possession over 30 years now and shot with Pyrodex the entire time. No issues. After this testing 777 came out. I use that a lot too. It shoots cleaner but not as accurate as Pyrodex. Still an easier cleanup makes it useful for general plinking as in my Chaparral 1876 in 45-75 where 777 does 2.4" at 100 yards and RS does 2.0" average (3 shot, bench, tang sight). 777 definitely burns cleaner and shoots with a bit more oomph with the same volumetric load as RS.
In my muzzleloader I chrono'd a 100GN (by volume not weight) load, 50 cal roundball as follows: Pyrodex RS 1925 fps MV, average group 1.4" at 50 yards. 777 did 2120 fps, average group 2.0". It was this gun that got me to test Pyrodex as I started, in 1994, with BP. Did 1 shot. Such fun! Loaded the second and it was TIGHT getting the ball to seat. Hmmm. Loaded the third shot. Stuck halfway down. Had to drive home with a charged gun and a ball stuck in the bore. Tried looser patches, smaller diameter balls all to no avail. What would load in a fouled bore (loose patch, small ball diameter) gave dismal accuracy. I was beside myself, I built this Hawken from scratch and had money and time in it. Bought a pound of RS. Did 3 shots...no stuck ball...loaded easy each shot! Went back to a tight patch and ball. Wow! 100 yd group around 4"! I'll take it. Further experimenting with charge, patch thickness, double patching, ball diameter, etc and I have a load that now does around 3" at 100 and I can and have shot 25 in a row without cleaning.
Yes I am sure Pyrodex and 777, like all powders, leaves bad residue in the bore. So does BP (corrosive salts). This is the first I heard Pyrodex leaves sulfuric acid but like the corrosive salts I don't care. I wash it out with hot water. Leave water in a bore and it rusts too. Thats why I dry it. I also hear "Competitors don't use it so neither should I". Well, the standard deviation of velocity is usually greater with Pyrodex and 777 than for BP so for the long range 800 yard buffalo gong shoots where velocity spread equates to large point of impact changes I too would use BP. But just as competitors in Drag car races use nitromethane, does that mean I should put it in my Silverado? Of course not.
Bottom line is test them in your gun. BP, 777, and Pyrodex.Use the one that is better for YOUR needs.

[marlinman93]

One thing I discovered the hard way is brass cases corrode much faster with Pyrodex than they do with BP! Be sure to clean them as soon as possible after firing!

[jeepnik]

Interesting comments on the corrosivity of Pyrodex. I suppose if I lived a 170 years ago and didn't have an easy means of cleaning BP firearms it would be a concern. But since I clean mine after each use it simply isn't an issue. My preferred method of cleaning BP revolvers is to break them down, put the parts, except the grips, into a dishwasher and send them through. Not only does it clean but also rapidly dries them. Then oil them up and reassemble.

[AJMD429]

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Search the forum and there are some old threads that have references to pressure curve data and real-world performance with many smokeless substitutes - 5744 comes to mind, and I think several others like SR 4759. I've used 5744 in my muzzleloader mostly.

Search on 'KirkD' (author of many of the threads) and 'black powder substitute' or 'pressure curve' and stuff should come up.

[6pt-sika]

.
Search the forum and there are some old threads that have references to pressure curve data and real-world performance with many smokeless substitutes - 5744 comes to mind, and I think several others like SR 4759. I've used 5744 in my muzzleloader mostly.

Search on 'KirkD' (author of many of the threads) and 'black powder substitute' or 'pressure curve' and stuff should come up.

When I first started loading cast bullets in the 45-70 I used SR4759 then later switched to XMP5744 . In the Savage ML I used to have I started with VV N-110 and later tried XMP5744 . FWIW in the owners manual Savage suggested VV N-110 , XMP5744 and SR4759 . In the Remington 700 Ultimate ML I have now I’ve only used H4198 .