Winchester 94 14 Inch Barrel Sights Question

[ikocher]

I’m working on an idea for a build and would like to know if anyone happens to have a 14 inch barrel version of the 94 and if they could measure from the center of the rear sight dovetail to the center of the front sight dovetail?

Also, if they happen to have it in .30-30, what rear sight does it have and how tall is the front sight?

[Griff]

You know of course, that a 14" Winchester 94 would be an SBR. My 2 shortest are 16".

[JB]

I can't see 2" less barrel be worth the trouble of registering an SBR.

[Ysabel Kid]

Cool factor!

[Ysabel Kid]

And hopefully the 2nd Amendment Foundation will successfully challenge the entire Gun Control Act of 1934 and get it all tossed!

[ikocher]

You know of course, that a 14" Winchester 94 would be an SBR. My 2 shortest are 16".

I have suppressors so I’m familiar with all of that. That said, my build doesn’t fall under Title II BUT I do need to know the distance between the dovetails for the 14 inch factory guns. It’s weird but it should come out pretty great when fully built.

[ikocher]

You know of course, that a 14" Winchester 94 would be an SBR. My 2 shortest are 16".

Actually now that I think about, could I convince you to measure the distance on your 16inch 94’s? I can extrapolate from there if need be.

[Griff]

Actually now that I think about, could I convince you to measure the distance on your 16inch 94’s? I can extrapolate from there if need be.

Both measure 10-7/16". One is a commemorative bbl. & the other a standard Trapper bbl., at least it has no markings indicating anything special. Both have the front sight behind the front barrel band, or center of the dovetail 1" behind the muzzle. The center of the rear dovetail is 3-15/16" in front of the receiver.

[Malamute]

I’m working on an idea for a build and would like to know if anyone happens to have a 14 inch barrel version of the 94 and if they could measure from the center of the rear sight dovetail to the center of the front sight dovetail?

Also, if they happen to have it in .30-30, what rear sight does it have and how tall is the front sight?

What exactly are you looking to duplicate, the early carbines of the pre-war period now commonly called saddle ring carbines? Thats the only factory 14" guns I know of.

There are several things to take into consideration, and the distance between dovetail may not be exactly the right question. The early carbines had a leaf sight, today called a ladder sight, the rear dovetail was in a different position than the guns with rifle type rear sights. The distance from the front edge of the receiver to rear dovetail on the early type on the individual example I measured is 3.050". Front sight height (pinned blade in the early carbine example) will depend on the exact rear sight used and the caliber. They started phasing out early carbine leaf (ladder) sights in the late 20s, and ramp front sights started to become common to standard around the same time.

Second consideration on duplicating early type carbines, they didnt have dovetailed front sights, they had a small block that was silver brazed to the barrel with a blade pinned into it, or the block was machined from the same metal stock as the barrel. The distance thats going to matter is the distance from the muzzle, as the front band sits directly in front of the sight. On the 1927 example Im measuring that distance is 1.178" center of sight base to muzzle, however, this barrel was recrowned to clean it up, the exact number from the factory would be a very small amount larger, though Im not sure how exact Winchester made them. Keep in mind that on special order guns, there was likely some amount of hand work involved, and any two examples may vary slightly. back in the day Winchester would make about anything the customer would ask for, if you ordered one with a 13 3/4" barrel they would probably do exactly that. All the oddball examples in The Winchester Book give testament to that.

The Winchester collectors forum has a very detailed picture link done by one of the guys on early sights, rifle and carbine, with exact sight heights for various calibers. https://winchestercollector.org/forum/
Look in the sights section for the link, I think its stickied at the beginning.

The Winchester Book my Madis has quite a lot of good info on sight details for various models, its also a pretty good reference.

In the 1960s they started to make commemoratives, and terminology used by collectors began to be used by the factory. Winchester previously didnt use the term "saddle ring", it was called a sling ring. They also didnt used the term "saddle ring carbine" or "trapper", it was special order short carbine, baby carbine or pony carbine according to older sources. The decorative sling rings used in the 60s onward had much small shanks that true early carbines, the screw shank on early ones was 1/4" I believe. Im not sure how much Id trust the smaller shanked rings to support the guns weight in strenuous activities when used as historically done.

The whole "how did they use 'saddle rings'" is another discussion. Ive found no historical evidence of their use in the commonly believed method of a loop of leather through the ring and hung off the saddle horn. The history of them was military, and used with a wide leather strap over the shoulder and a large snap hook off the strap clipped into the ring. The most well known example was used with the trapdoors. The origins go back into the flintlock period for cavalry use. Today they would be called a single point sling. As with some other things, winchester copied existing elements in their guns, likely in an attempt to interest various military entities to use their guns, with only moderate success.

[Griff]

Here are the sights on my Trapper, built on a '67 Canadian Centennial receiver, in .30-30:

front sight.JPG

Measurements are approximate, as I'm taking them on the gun. Height above bottom of dovetail: .595", height above centerline of bore: .75"

rear sight.JPG

It's refreshingly accurate, having accounted for several coyotes on the farm. I can't remember where I got the rear sight, but it's very similar to p/n EP2225 from Dixie Gun Works.

[marlinman93]

You know of course, that a 14" Winchester 94 would be an SBR. My 2 shortest are 16".

I have suppressors so I’m familiar with all of that. That said, my build doesn’t fall under Title II BUT I do need to know the distance between the dovetails for the 14 inch factory guns. It’s weird but it should come out pretty great when fully built.

Please tell us how your build of a 1894 with a barrel under 16" doesn't fall into a Title II or SBR rifle? The only ones I know that don't are originals made before the laws changed. Do you live in another country and not the USA?

[Pat C]

My guess he has applied for SBR and has a tax stamp and is ready to build. Don't build it first or you will be committing felony.

[marlinman93]

My guess he has applied for SBR and has a tax stamp and is ready to build. Don't build it first or you will be committing felony.

His post said his build doesn't fall under Title II, so that doesn't sound like he's already got it covered.

[Pat C]

Well he will be in deep dodo if he precedes located in USA.

Here is an original prewar 14" BATF lettered SRC .Notice its late carbine with 22H Rifle rear sight located same distance as pre 64 carbines.

What you will notice is short forend either the 7 3/8" or 8 3/8"
Front sight is part of barrel forging.
It's no problem to get dimensions if this is what your after.

[Pat C]

Here is info for original 1894 SRC .

IF old style dovetail is used the #44 ladder sight or three leaf express is all you can use.

If late style dovetail is used #22H or G rifle sight can be used

[ikocher]

Everyone thank you for the info especially the major breakdown on sight types! Y’all are a huge help and I think I have what I need.

The build isn’t NFA Title II because it’ll be 16.5 inch barrel. The entire question about the 14 sights is because the end game is a suppressor and how to accommodate it. Specifically an AB Suppressor Raptor 6 but I’m hoping to get it with the 2 inch reflex extension for extra internal volume. That puts the back end of the can about 2 inches from the shoulder over the barrel. If I want to keep with iron sights, and I do, I’ll need a way to make the sights sit. With standard 16 inch sights, I wouldn’t be able to support the reflex portion. The suppressor would hide the muzzle back to the front sight. It’s weird but it keeps the overall length down while still having good internal volume and lets me use factory parts and keep certain looks. It won’t be perfect but it’ll do what I want. I just want to make sure the distances are correct.

I won’t be needing a barrel band for the front since I’ll end up doing the “button” magazine length.

I’m calling it a Sport Trapper.

Seeing as how it’s been pointed out, I hadn’t realized that the front sight on the carbines was silver soldered in place and that’s really good info. I’ll have to keep that in mind.

I’m a ways out on doing anything with this build but getting on with the fact-finding part of any build is usually to most time consuming.

On a side note, pin and weld would be the alternate answer to the Non-Title II. In the world of the AR-15, where most of my non-lever builds are, the 13.7 / 13.9 inch or 14.5 inch barrel with muzzle device is pretty common.

I don’t know if this will ever happen but if SBR’s do come off the NFA, I could also take the remainder of the barrel down and make a proper carbine. I won’t hold my breath but I’ll sure hope for it.

[Malamute]

Well, that fills in some blanks on the map.

Sight height. The early suppressors, some fitted by winchester, were offset so the body of the can was not interfering in the line of sight. I believe theres pictures about on the net of some suppressed 94s, one belonged to Theodore Roosevelt, so he could shoot and hunt and not bother his neighbors. His was a 1/2 mag or button mag rifle, but one can build whatever style one wishes of course, its just an interesting historical example.