Interesting comparison between the .44 Magnum and .44-40

[Scott Tschirhart]

I saw this and had to share:

[fourbore]

I think the difference would be more noticeable using expanding jacketed bullets. I agree the 44-40 is under appreciated, but implying it is just as good maybe counter productive.

[samsi]

I was shooting my .44 mag 92 at the range one day with a Magma 240 over 10 grains of Unique. The guy at the next bench asked what it was and when I replied it was a 44 magnum he said it didn't appear that powerful. I explained that the load I was using put it more in the ballpark of a 44-40 and got the stunned bovine look in response, so I guess we're in the minority when it comes to appreciating vintage ballistics.

On a side note, my most used .375 WCF load is a machine cast 245FP with 10 grains Unique that runs a little over 1300 fps but is very accurate. I wouldn't hesitate to pop a deer with it at any sensible distance.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I think the difference would be more noticeable using expanding jacketed bullets. I agree the 44-40 is under appreciated, but implying it is just as good maybe counter productive.

I guess that’s not what I read in that passage.

[JimT]

I think the difference would be more noticeable using expanding jacketed bullets. I agree the 44-40 is under appreciated, but implying it is just as good maybe counter productive.

I guess that’s not what I read in that passage.

What I read in that passage was a confirmation of what John Linebaugh, Elmer Keith and others proved over the years: You don't have to push a .44 or .45 to 1700 fps for it to give excellent penetration and kill game cleanly.

[fourbore]

The higher energy combined with controlled expansion of jacket bullets imparts more tissue damage than a solid. It seems fair to point out a poorly selected jacketed bullet can under perform in a way no solid will ever fail. But a properly loaded and designed JSP in a less well placed shot may still drop a deer right away or much quicker than a solid. Passing all way is not the final word on effective. it is how much damage is done along the way that counts. I can use every legal advantage I can get. I am lucky I can deer hunt at all or drag it more than 50 yards and keep myself vertical. I expect a new hunter would also benefit from the most effective rifle he can handle.

[Ray]

E.N. Woodcock wrote this nearly three decades before Mister Keith's first article. The .38 Winchester he cites is what most would call the .38-40 which is actually a .40 caliber..... At the time of his (woodcock) 1903 to 1913 magazine articles being compiled into a book, he had slain more deer and bear in pennsylvania for the philadelphia and manhattan meat markets than any man living. Most of those were killed with the .44 & .38 winchester 1873. Obviously this style of game shooting and wounding is frowned upon today but was apparently common then in locales with adequate tracking snow. Read Mister Keith's youthful yellowstone park hunting adventures and the poverty stricken era's competition for big-game to understand. Anyhow here is woodcock's take on suitable deer/bear arms.

I have read with interest the discussion of the many different makes of guns, the different calibers for large game hunting, etc., and as I am not well up on "gunology," I have listened and wondered why there was so much agitation on the gun question. I believe that nearly all of the modern guns that are manufactured today are good--at least sufficiently good shooters for all practical purposes. Shotguns can be bought at $3.00 or $4.00 that do good work. Perhaps there is not a man in the country who has carried a gun as many days as the writer, but what has done more target shooting than I have.

Back in the 70's when men hunted deer in this section for the money that was in it, I often did not take my rifle down to shoot from one season's hunting to the next, unless by chance something in the way of game came into fields near the house. I was always in love with my gun and if I did not like it I would get rid of it at the first opportunity. I am still of the opinion that a gun is similar to a man's wife, you must love them in order to get the best results.

I always wanted as good a gun as there was on the market. By this I do not mean the highest priced, nor the highest power gun, but the gun that would do the business. A man by the name of Orlando Reese and I were the first to buy Winchester rifles in this section, and I think in this county. The guns were the common round barrel .44 caliber and we paid $60.00 apiece for them. The same kind of a gun can now, I think, be bought for $12.00 or $14.00. Previous to the time I bought the Winchester, I had been using a Henry rifle for a time, but it was not a good gun for hunting purposes. A few years later the .45-75 Winchester came into use, so I sold my .44 and bought a .45-75. I did not like it so I sold it and bought a Colts, which was a good gun, but one day I was doing some fast work on a bunch of deer and in my haste I did not work the lever just as I should and it jammed. This made me rather angry, so I sold it and got another .44 Winchester, which I used for a long time, but I disposed of it very unexpectedly.

I was coming out from camp after a new stock of provisions. My partner, Amersley Ball, was with me. We had not gone far after getting in the wagon road when we met a man by the name of Lyman who was on his way to the Cross Fork of Kettle Creek, for the purpose of inspecting the timber lands and wanted a gun to carry with him. Before Mr. Lyman was hardly in speaking distance he yelled at me and asked what I would take for my gun. Thinking that he was only joking I said $40.00.

Mr. Lyman came up to me, took my gun from my shoulders, looked at it and asked me if it was alright. I replied that if it was not I would not be carrying it.

Mr. Lyman replied, "I guess that is right," and taking a check from his pocket dropped down on one knee, filled it out for forty dollars and handed it to me, so I was without a gun right in the midst of the hunting season.

My protest was of no use, as Mr. Lyman took the gun and went his way, laughing at me. I received a little more for the gun than the usual price at the time, but there was no dealer at our place who kept the Winchester in stock. The dealers were always obliging and would take your order and get you a gun for a small profit of about sixteen dollars. I had no time to wait for a gun to be ordered, so I began to look about to find some one who had a gun for sale. Mr. Wm. Thompson, the publisher of a local newspaper in our place had bought a new .38 caliber Winchester to use in his annual outing and said that he would have no further use for a gun until another season that if I would give him $35.00, I could have his gun. I gave Mr. Thompson the money and the next morning we went back to camp.

After we had arrived at camp, I crossed the divide from the Sinnemahoning side of the Pine Creek side to hunt. I had not gone far after reaching Pine Creek before I struck the trail of five or six deer. After following the trail a ways I concluded that the deer would pass around the point of the ridge and pass through a hardwood balsam on the other side of the ridge.

I climbed the hill and made for the balsam in hope to head the deer off. I had only reached the brow of the hill so that I could look into the basin when I saw the deer. I thought to myself, there is a good chance to try my new gun, for I had not yet shot it. I drew on a large doe that was in the lead of the bunch and cut loose. The doe made a leap into the air, made a jump or two down the hill and went down, while the rest of the deer made two or three jumps up the hill towards me and stopped and looked back down the hill in the direction of the doe that I had shot. I pulled onto the shoulders of a buck, the largest deer of the bunch, who gave his tail a switch or two, wheeled, made a few jumps down the hill and fell, while the rest of the bunch made a lively break for other parts. I continued to scatter lead as long as I could see them.

I ran down to the deer that I had killed, cut their throats, removed their entrails, climbed some saplings, bent them down, cut off the tops and hung the deer on them. Getting a pole with a crotch at the end to place under the sapling, I pulled the deer up the best that I could and started on the trail of the others. I did not follow the trail long when I saw one of them had a broken leg. The deer with the broken leg soon dropped out from the others and went down the hill, crossed the hollow and went into a thick hemlock timber and laurel.

As it was nearly night, I left the trail and went home to camp. The next morning, Mr. Ball went with me to help get the wounded deer. We did not follow the trail far until we saw the deer fixing to lie down. I backed up and went up the hill above where we thought the deer might be lying. While Mr. Ball waited for me to give the signal to come. Mr. Ball had not gone far after I had howled, letting him know that I was ready, when out of the laurel came the deer. Mr. Ball was close, so that we both got a shot, killing the deer almost before it was on its feet.

Now I was so infatuated with my new gun, that it was a case of love at first sight. This was in the late 70's. I have used several different makes of guns. I also had a .30-30 Savage, which I considered a good gun for big game, and in fact, I can say that the most of the guns that I have tried were all good. I however am still married to my little .38 Winchester. I can say that in all these, considerable more than thirty years, I have never run up against a subject but that this little Winchester was equal to the emergency.

Now I wish to ask, why it is that a hunter cares for a high power gun that will shoot into the next township and kill a man or a horse that the hunter was not aware of existing, when a gun of less power will do just as good execution in deer hunting? The ammunition for the gun of lower power costs much less and there is far less danger in killing a man or beast a mile away. We hear men talk of shooting deer 200 and even 300 yards. In the many years that I have hunted deer, I believe that I have killed two deer at a distance of from 50 to 75 yards, to one a distance of 100 or 150. I believe most deer hunters will agree that there are far more deer killed at a distance of 50 or 60 yards than over that distance. I think that if those hunters who kill deer at a distance of 100 or 200 yards will take the trouble to step off the distance of their long shots, instead of estimating them, they will find that 100 yards in timber is a long ways. Yes, boys, 20 rods through the timber is a long ways to shoot a deer. Why? Because the deer can not often be seen at a greater distance, where there would be any use of shooting at all, and the little .38 will do all of that and more too.

[ywaltzucanrknrl]

Ray, I like that story, thanks for posting it.

[Grizz]

Good story Ray. do you have any information on the ammo? bullet diameter, weights, velocities, etc. or is it just .38 Winchester?

found it >>

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=.38+Wincheste ... he-9mm.jpg

[Scott Tschirhart]

Thanks Ray!!!

[EdinCT]

My Grand Fathers big rifle was a 38 WCF and because his generation didn't read gun rags he felt well armed. I was not has sure but had mention to my Dad my doubts. He laughed at me and said if you put a 40 cal 180 gr bullet through a deers lungs you will be dragging it!
Hit them were they live he said (lungs).
Well the first deer I shot was around 45 yards, It was a fawn dressing about 55 Lbs and I was glad to have a smaller deer to try the rifle out on. When I shot it went down on its knees and got back up and ran over the hill about 30 yards leaving a trail that looked like I had shot through a paint can.
A few years latter I again had Gramps gun and nine does ran up to me about forty yards, the lead doe was large and I hit her on the point of her shoulder. She spun made two bounds and slammed into a oak and died.
When I got home I skinned her in the barn and found the slug under the hide in the opposite flank mushroomed nicely. My neighbor was looking at the wound channel and said I have shot almost 500 deer in my life most with my 30 Rem. pump ( He owned a large orchard) and can't say it would do any more than the 38-40 did.
I think if you can shoot it well and don't try any long or rear end shots you may be surprised Razor Dobbs is always shooting big game with a 10mm handgun that is pretty much equal to a 38 or 44 WCF.

[AJMD429]

.
My favorite deer round is a 44 Magnum, but I think anything 'big' (>40 cal) and solid (hardcast lead) will do the job if it is going at least 1,200 feet per second.

I saw a comparison of 45-70 versus 50 BMG in water-jug penetration, and the 40-70 did better - the speculation was that although the BMG has way more energy and a more streamlined bullet, the severe deceleration it undergoes destabilizes it more than the lesser deceleration the 45-70 undergoes. Of course the followup that would have been nice would have been to use the 700 grain pointy bullet at 1,200 fps or so and the hardcast lead at whatever the BMG is running.

To me the ONLY reason I have a bunch of 44 Magnums (rifle, carbine, revolver, Desert Eagle, Contender) instead of a bunch of 44-40's is "availability". It is fun to shoot a big full-house 'thumper' load out of a Super Blackhawk, for sure, but from a practical standpoint the only other advantage of 44 Magnum is that the higher initial velocity DOES extend the point-blank range enough that it means my limited range-estimating skills don't hamper me as much as they otherwise would. Of course a 44-40 lever action carbine with a holosight with built-in laser rangefinder would be anachronistic, but kinda cool....

[AJMD429]

Ray, I like that story, thanks for posting it.

The BEST quote in the story:

"... I am still of the opinion that a gun is similar to a man's wife, you must love them in order to get the best results..."

[.45colt]

In My experience when the .44 mag came along the .44-.40 was just put on the backburner. If model 92's and higher velocity ammo would have stayed around the old .44 would have remained more popular. I'm no expert but in My 24" Rossi .44-40 shooting +P loads it gives up little to the magnum. I would really like to take it Deer Hunting but bottleneck rounds aren't legal in Ohio.

[AJMD429]

…I would really like to take it Deer Hunting but bottleneck rounds aren't legal in Ohio.

Isn’t that silly… ‘bottleneck’…????

Well technically I guess a 32-20 is also a ‘bottleneck’ round but the intent was to keep nimrods from using 7mm Rem Mag on deer and the more severe consequences of a backstop failure with those high-ballistic-coefficient bullets.

I saw a guy hunting near me last year and he took a shot at a running whitetail at 320 yards (east to measure later as the deer leapt over a fence/gap at the first shot and the guy was up in a metal transmission line tower) that poachers near where I hunt often use. Then he kept shooting - 5 shots total- in no more than one second. Of course he missed. After he left I went over to the spot and there were five shiny 300 Win Mag cases on the ground plus two old looking 30-06 cases, one 308 Win, and a few very corroded shotgun shells.

Still unsure what gun he was using but he held it like an ‘AR’ so maybe it had a pistol grip.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I rarely shot further than 60 yards or so. I restricted myself to hunting with a revolver this year and I was very fortunate.

Both the .44-40 and.44Magnum are much more powerful than my.45 Colt sixgun.

[AJMD429]

.
Farthest whitetail I’ve shot was 125 yards. All but that one inside 75 yards. 357 Mag or 44 Mag or 45 Colt easily do the job, even from a handgun. 38-40 or 44-40 should too.

I think my grandfather used a 32-20 over a hundred years ago.

[Bronco]

I know this for a fact! I would not want to be shot by either one!

[horsesoldier03]

I think some may give deer a little more credit than they deserve. I recall years back when we had several Elk that were shot and killed (illegally) by a man with a 9mm pistol. I also recall my grandfather telling me how back in the depression he used CUTT SHELLS from a 20 ga to shoot deer. I think .44 mag / .44 special and .44-40 are all very capable of taking deer at 100 -125 yards provided you can hit where you are shootin. My daughter shot her 1st buck with my Marlin 1894 in .44 mag that I handloaded for reduced recoil. If I recall correctly it was a 200 gr XTP over about 5.8 grains of W231.

[KWK]

I did not like it so I sold it and bought a Colts, which was a good gun, but one day I was doing some fast work on a bunch of deer and in my haste I did not work the lever just as I should and it jammed

Was that a Burgess, or might he be referring to the slide of a Lightning? I've read the Lightnings can be finicky but know little about the Burgess.

I wonder why he didn't like the Henry, weight or cartridge?

[fourbore]

... snip...
I think my grandfather used a 32-20 over a hundred years ago.

There it is. I was waiting for that one.

...snip... My daughter shot her 1st buck with my Marlin 1894 in .44 mag that I handloaded for reduced recoil. If I recall correctly it was a 200 gr XTP over about 5.8 grains of W231.

That is a jacket bullet and the same bullet I use in my 44-40 Marlin loads. I am not a 12 yr old girl but I am not loading to the max either. There was a time you could buy Win SuperX, 200 JSP retail. Today all I see is Black Hills or Cowboy dejour round nose cast bullets for the gun club cowboy. Cowboy!! More like Cowgirl. if this cowgirl ammo cost $25 a box sure, but it cost the same as 357 or even 44mag full power jacketed ammo. If you dont load your own you are really up against the wall with these rounds. I will be loading my own cowgirl 1873 44 ammo with no intention of carrying all the iron in pursuit of white tail or any other game.

Every season, I mean every, I either jump a deer with my scoped 7mm and not get a shot off or spot one standing out 100+ to 200 and I have my 44 and no shot taken. It is like changing lanes on the highway. Next day I take out the other gun and end up working the other woods. I guess I need to try my 32-20

My best hunting buddy ate up some internet lies about how the 357 mag worked on deer. He hit buck an 1icnh below the spine. we found it next day. his 44 or my 7mm would have blow out that deers back and dropped on it the spot - for certain.

[horsesoldier03]

Even with the reduced velocity it still had full expansion. It did not penetrate both sides but the slug was found caught in the hide on the opposite side. No tracking was involved.

[fourbore]

Even with the reduced velocity it still had full expansion. It did not penetrate both sides but the slug was found caught in the hide on the opposite side. No tracking was involved.

I think this is a good bullet. My initial point was a hard cast with 100% pass threw is not ideal. She got the full energy and max tissue damage from that shot. Now if the shot was angled from further back perhaps not so good depending how far back. And there was not a base ball size hole on the far end, but it worked. My 44-40 Marlin did kill a few deer with the prior owner using that old 200gr factory Super X ammo. I got a partial box with the gun. Now I have my handholds with that XTP and it is an accurate gun. I still use my Marlin 44mag and why not? We been together a long time.

[Ray]

"My initial point was a hard cast with 100% pass threw is not ideal"

Assuming you meant "through" then this is just another one of those opinions that we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I like good holes in and good holes out. Let’s cold air in and warm blood out.

This is a good exit wound.

[Griff]

I had my one & only 44Mag stolen in 1974, a Winchester 94... and what I remember most about it was that it hit harder than my .30-30 at the back end. It didn't have the range the .30-30 did, ergo, it's never been replaced. Fast forward to 4 years ago and I purchased my 1st .44-40 rifle, an AWA Lightning clone. I bought it used from a cowboy action shooter down in So TX. It's short stroke takes a bit of getting used to for one accustomed to the far longer strokes of pump shotguns. Run smoothly and without any jerky movements, it's slick and quick. I've only used it for competing in "Wild Bunch" matches, so even factory level ammo isn't needed, but my handloads are running about 1,000 fps. If shots were within 75 yards or so, I'd be fine using 'em for deer. But, if I were to take it afield, I think I'd rather carry some closer to 1,300 fps.

In like platforms, (i.e. comparing pistol to pistol & rifle to rifle), I've always held that the .44-40 & .45 Colt were roughly equal. Neither is the ballistic equivalent of the .44Mag, but... that's not to say that within effective range, they aren't up to equal, or... possibly better performance on game. The difference on game between a .429/.430 entry holdeand a .452 entry hole is negligible. I would guess that outside of contact with bone during their transit, even exit holes would be approximately equal. I would also argue that a .44 Mag pushed to 1700 fps (probably of a harder alloy), would not gain appreciable expansion thru soft tissue and might actually be a little less effective.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Griff,

There may be something to your last comment. I’ve noticed that a .45 ACP is more effective than it should be on paper.

I don’t know why that is. Does it stay inside longer because of the lower velocities and transmit energy for a fraction of a second longer? I really don’t know.

I’m happy with a .45 Colt at 900 fps or so. Seems to do a great job within the range that I can accurately shoot a pistol.

But I would never argue that it is the equal of a .44 Magnum.

[Walt]

I think Max Prazak would certainly argue that the .45 Colt loaded to its full potential is superior to the .44 mag as a hunting round. I'm sure John Linebaugh would have agreed.

[Scott Tschirhart]

No doubt that the .45 Colt can be loaded up and can gain considerably in mathematical “power”

However I think I’ve found a sweet spot that makes me happy.

[Walt]

I doubt that either Prazak or Linebaugh concerned themselves with mathematical power but rather determined through experience that appropriately loaded .45 Colts had a distinct advantage in hunting big game.