Cowboy Assault Rifle

[Scott Tschirhart]

https://texashillcountry.com/cowboy-butt ... er-action/

[JimT]

Mine has functioned really well as a "STOP AN ASSAULT RIFLE" ......

[Bill in Oregon]

I am reminded of an article many years ago in the dear old Gun Digest when John Amber was still the editor. It was an article by an Apache author, I believe, about why the .30-30 was a vital tool for modern Native Americans not based just on its historical use but because of its great utility. And I recall it won the article of the year award. I miss those Gun Digests. Used to have 15 or 20 annual issues. Good reading.

[Drawdown]

Subject of ARs comes up often anymore, people considering one who normally wouldn't even buy a rifle. If I comment about myself, I say I'll just take my chances with my 30-30's and ready supply reloads, and my 45acp! I'd like to have one, don't blame em it's a good choice. But I ain't buying no more rifles, except maybe a choice few that could pop up.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I carried this one many a mile.

[Gunstore Commando]

Also of note, these bad boys were the standard arm of the North Woods from 'bout when they started making them up until maybe the 1970's. And why not.

[horsesoldier03]

As much as I love my 30-30, I dont think it would be my first choice if I had to stretch it over 225 yards. I have good optics on my AR and would feel very comfortable out to 400 and even to 500 depending on the scenario. As far as reloads go, but the side loading gate is pretty handy as well.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I’ve thought about this a lot. I would, without question, grab my .30-30 before any other rifle if I needed one for such serious circumstances. I’ve not seen the need to shoot 400-500 yards except to hit rocks on the side of the mountain at the Whittington Center.

When I’m riding hard against the border, I invariably bring this rifle.

[Scott Tschirhart]

https://youtu.be/qntzxpCMXls?si=DM5E0fn45rz9Ra8o

Song from the time of the Revolution!!!

[JimT]

https://youtu.be/qntzxpCMXls?si=DM5E0fn45rz9Ra8o

Song from the time of the Revolution!!!

I discovered that song back in the 90's and it only added to my love for the 30-30. I will take mine over the AR any day for several reasons. The main one being I don't know how to run an AR. I have shot one a few times. Someone had to point out to me how to make the bolt stop work and the other controls. I have no clue as to how to take one down and am not interested in learning. I can run my 30-30 blindfolded in the dark without fumbling or messing around trying to figure out what makes it do what.

This is NOT a slam against the AR. It means I have never had the interest enough in one to learn to run it. If that's your choice, go for it! Be the BEST you can be with it.

[Bill in Oregon]

Noticing the rolling block carbines, too. Don't know if they were in 7mm or .44 WCF, but I remember the latter being for sale really cheap in the back of gun magazines that I would read while waiting for a haircut about 1965 ...

[JimT]

Noticing the rolling block carbines, too. Don't know if they were in 7mm or .44 WCF, but I remember the latter being for sale really cheap in the back of gun magazines that I would read while waiting for a haircut about 1965 ...

In the late 1960's I bought a Rolling Block for $7.00. It was in 11mm something or other .. Egyptian? I don't remember. Gave it to my Dad for a present and he shot it for years. Made brass from .45-70 brass .. used .45 Colt Keith bullets. I had it rebuilt later into .45-70.

[wvfarrier]

I carried an AR professionally for most of my life but now that I am retired, I always grab a levergun, not in 30-30 though. I typically choose 45 colt or 357 mag as my go-to rifles. If I cant handle the problem with 13rds of 357 or 12 rounds of 45 colt, then I am in over my head anyway. And, lets be honest, if you shoot someone from distance in this day and legal climate, you are going to prison.

[Bill in Oregon]

WVfarrier, there is iron in your words.
Jim, the rounded receiver panels and bridge of the rolling block action you sent a photo of is very likely one of the Egyptians all right.

[JimT]

WVfarrier, there is iron in your words.
Jim, the rounded receiver panels and bridge of the rolling block action you sent a photo of is very likely one of the Egyptians all right.

I thought that was what it originally ... but it was far enough in the past that I was not sure I remembered correctly. I have a great memory. I can remember in fine detail things that never happened!

[Grizz]

Noticing the rolling block carbines, too. Don't know if they were in 7mm or .44 WCF, but I remember the latter being for sale really cheap in the back of gun magazines that I would read while waiting for a haircut about 1965 ...

I bought one of those rollers, 7mm carbine for something like 7$ or 17$? Got surplus 7mm ammo too. Via USPS. Took dinero from newspaper route to the P.O. and traded for a money order. Gun was delivered to my door. Might have been in grade school still, don't recall. I loved shooting that gun! All this to quantify the degree that we've been imprisoned in the interim.

[Grizz]

As far as the topic goes, in WA state, if I have any long gun in my vehicle with ammo in it, it is a felony. HOWEVER if I have the AR47 pistol in 7.62x39 concealed or open anywhere in the vehicle, that's covered by my carry permit. This is an open carry state so if I exit my vehicle with a long gun I can legally load it to defend myself with it. OTOH I can legally defend myself with my 30 cal pistol with the standard magazine. So far.

As far as running ARs, there's nothing to it. If you can run a stick shift vehicle, or a tractor, or an espresso maker, or a boom box, or a fork lift, or a computer on wifi, or adjust a carburator, or tune up ignition timing, or take the slack out of a chain saw chain, you are qualified to run an AR. I mean, the first time I ever saw one my brother handed me his 5.56 and an empty magazine and said "here ya go". There's nothing to know or remember, it is self explanatory.

grizz

[Scott Tschirhart]

The .30-30 was a huge step up from the .44-40 and other common leverguns when it was introduced. It quickly proved to be a very effective anti personnel round.

[wvfarrier]

Garandthumb on youtube did an execution simulation on a ballistic torso using a 30-30.....quite effective

[Grizz]

The .30-30 was a huge step up from the .44-40 and other common leverguns when it was introduced. It quickly proved to be a very effective anti personnel round.

No question about that. Whatever a bullet will do to a deer it will do to terrorist too.

[Griff]

After getting out of the Navy and shoeing horses while going to college, I carried a Winchester mdl 94 carbine in the back window of my p/u truck, never had a problem... Even when I did get pulled over, mostly because my coal forge wasn't totally out, or the shoes rattling against each other in the racks I'd built would draw their attention... And the bumper sticker in the back window that said "No! I ain't a Cowboy! I just found the hat!" Always got a laugh! I'd sometimes get asked if it was loaded... my usual response was "...is it any good if it ain't?" And this was California of the 1970s.

[JimT]

Back when America was free and the FBI didn't harass people for speaking their minds, we kids carried our .22 rifles around openly and hunted with them, had them on our bicycles and no one freaked out about it. We didn't shoot each other or anyone else. The guy at the hardware store sold us .22 shells individually. Most times I only had enough money to buy 3 to 5 shells but that was enough to go hunting with.

[Bill in Oregon]

Jim, same deal with our hardware store. As I recall, the .22 Longs were a penny or so cheaper than the .22 Long Rifles.

[JimT]

Jim, same deal with our hardware store. As I recall, the .22 Longs were a penny or so cheaper than the .22 Long Rifles.

Shorts were the cheapest and I shot a lot of those. I bought some Shorts earlier this year and was amazed at the cost. But I like to keep a few around.

[Scott Tschirhart]

We used .22 Shorts because they were cheaper (not today they aren’t) but also because a .22 Short hollow point performed better on squirrels. They dropped out of the tree where some which were shot with a Long Rifle might not.

[TraderVic]

22 shorts work real well for dispatching critters in traps, especially skunks. Snug the 22 rifle barrel right up behind the front leg

[Paladin]

In 1978 the first shooting I went to in the state police was a drunk who broke into the residence of an old man screaming he wanted money. The old man shot him from his wheelchair at about 11 yards down the hallway with his Model 94 and a 150gr WW soft nose. It worked perfectly solving the problem instantly with a center shot in the chest stopping just under the skin after going through the spine. At the autopsy, the removed bullet had a textbook mushroom.
I am fond of "Cowboy Assault Rifles" and have a few with the .44 Mag and .357 Mag suppressed (very quiet with specials). I have taken 4 kids deer hunting for the first time and supplied a 30-30 for each of them to train on and then hunt with and one kid in Alaska a .35 Rem Marlin 336 for his first moose hunt (two of the kids got to keep the Marlins). While I like them and don't feel out gunned for human encounters I revert to my military training for more involved engagements preferring an M1A, AR15, or AR10 or distance or crowd operations.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Keith wrote of a number of anti-personnel shootings with the .30-30 and I think all of them were fatal.

[Paul105]

Back when America was free and the FBI didn't harass people for speaking their minds, we kids carried our .22 rifles around openly and hunted with them, had them on our bicycles and no one freaked out about it. We didn't shoot each other or anyone else. The guy at the hardware store sold us .22 shells individually. Most times I only had enough money to buy 3 to 5 shells but that was enough to go hunting with.

Back in the early 50s my uncle took early retirement and moved to northern Calif. Had to clear some stumps to build a house. Bought a case of dynamite from the local hardware store (no license/permit that I recall). Put 10 sticks under a big old oak stump, backed off 25/50 yds or so, hunkered down behind a big pile of lumber and let her rip. Amazing how much stuff rained down on us. Totally different country today.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Today folks call the law on people shooting tannerite!

[TraderVic]

Today folks call the law on people shooting tannerite!

.....or disciplining their child

[AJMD429]

Back when America was free and the FBI didn't harass people for speaking their minds, we kids carried our .22 rifles around openly and hunted with them, had them on our bicycles and no one freaked out about it. We didn't shoot each other or anyone else. The guy at the hardware store sold us .22 shells individually. Most times I only had enough money to buy 3 to 5 shells but that was enough to go hunting with.

Back in the early 50s my uncle took early retirement and moved to northern Calif. Had to clear some stumps to build a house. Bought a case of dynamite from the local hardware store (no license/permit that I recall). Put 10 sticks under a big old oak stump, backed off 25/50 yds or so, hunkered down behind a big pile of lumber and let her rip. Amazing how much stuff rained down on us. Totally different country today.

When I was in residency, one of the general surgeons was a farm boy, and still owned the family farm. He said when he had time off, he loved to go use dynamite to blow trees out of the ground where they needed to clear. They were digging post holes all around the tree and set the charges and then blow the tree right up out of the ground. I asked him if he thought that was a good idea, being a surgeon, and eating all of his fingers. His comment was “… Well if I mess up with dynamite, I’m not gonna just be missing a couple fingers so I guess it’s kind of an older nothing deal….”

I remember as a third grader, the brother of one of my friends giving me and the friend a ride to my house after school. He was in high school, so we walked to the high school and waited because his classes didn’t get out as soon as ours did. We all got in his car (so I know he had to be at least 16 but he was still in high school), and on the way home way stopped at what was basically an old general store that sold groceries and hardware and all that sort of stuff like most rural small towns had in the 1960s. He just signed a piece of paper and bought a bunch of dynamite. I remember he was telling my friend not to mess with it because he was sitting on the backseat with the box on it.

And we’ve spoiled two or three generations to the point that they’re such snowflakes you can’t trust them with dynamite. You can’t even trust them with regular firearms. Even high school age. For that matter, even as ‘adults’…

Of course, even by third grade they’re supposed to be so smart and sophisticated that we can trust them so much they can decide they need a sex change operation….

[AJMD429]

.
Traditionalists certainly roll their eyes when the walnut disappears, and the steel is stainless instead of blued, but this is still one of my favorite little carbines. It's practical.

Over the years I got really tired of having to 'baby' my pretty walnut-and-blued-steel leverguns because if you get them out in the snow or the rain water inevitably gets under the forearm and they are not the easiest things to remove and replace on a lever gun every time you go out in foul weather. But if you don't do that, pretty soon that pretty blue steel under that pretty walnut forend has rust and pits...

In contrast, the aluminum one from Ranger Point Precision stands out from the barrel so the moisture doesn't get trapped in there, and of course on that particular levergun the barrel is stainless anyway. And it is kind of handy to be able to have those little M-Lok slots if you want to clip on a light, which is kind of nice to have if you're outside at night trying to keep something from eating your livestock.

Now I still appreciate the beauty of a good vintage levergun, and they are not only practical guns, but many are also high-craftsmanship works of art. But if I want to keep them looking good, I'm just not going to take them out in really crappy weather as much as I would this stainless and aluminum and plastic version.

Thankfully, there's room in my gun cabinet and budget to have both kinds.

Eight shots of 180 grain jacketed 35 cal soft points can solve most problems, and do it without busting your eardrums if you leave the suppressor on.

32775.jpeg

Thirty shots of 180 grain 30cal soft points are available in the form of a 300 Blackout SBR if need be. That's generally where the suppressor is, because the things I would grab the levergun for would generally be things that are outside and things that I would have time to don electronic muffs for, whereas something going on inside the house needing instant response, or that might require a lot more insults to the eardrum, merit the AR-SBR.

IMG_1567.jpeg

Somewhat similar ballistics though, with 180 grain bullets probably around 1400 ft per second or so, although I sometimes use 220 mg in the 300 BO.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Over the years I got really tired of having to 'baby' my pretty walnut-and-blued-steel leverguns

I must confess that I never get tired of wiping down a levergun.

[Griff]

Over the years I got really tired of having to 'baby' my pretty walnut-and-blued-steel leverguns

I must confess that I never get tired of wiping down a levergun.

Heck, I've been known to get them outta the safe just wipe them down!

[AJMD429]

Over the years I got really tired of having to 'baby' my pretty walnut-and-blued-steel leverguns

I must confess that I never get tired of wiping down a levergun.

Heck, I've been known to get them outta the safe just wipe them down!

LOL agreed.

Sometimes I’ve been known to get them out and set them in groups according to caliber or action or vintage, just to look at ‘em…. Reminds me of when my daughter was little and she would get out her dozens upon dozens of plastic toy horses and make little horse herds of different colors or different sizes among the ‘hills’ and ‘cliffs’ of a bunched up blanket on the sofa.

So I don’t have a problem at all ‘wiping down’ the levergun, but that doesn’t stop the moisture that is wicked under the forend from rusting the barrel. Even with a set of really good screwdrivers, and being patient and careful, it’s a real pain in the butt to take the forend off of a rifle every time you come back in from an outing involving adverse weather. I used to go hunting or just woods-walking and take my 32-20 (1889 Marlin), and I’d go even in mist or sleet or active drizzle. I’d get back home and thaw out over some strong coffee (or bourbon as I got older), and lovingly field-strip and wipe down the gun, relaxing to the aroma of Hoppe’s and linseed oil. I’d do the same with my modem 1894 in 44 Mag, and later on a beautiful 357 Mag of earlier ‘pre-safety’ manufacture.

Then I got a steel replacement magazine follower for the 44 Mag, and when disassembling the gun saw that under the forend was a mess where the blued steel was very rusty. The 44 was not quite a ‘truck gun’ but was one with lots of dings and scratches and a buggered screw or two, so I didn’t worry too much about cosmetic stuff with it, but the 357 was the closest I would’ve had to a safe queen back then because it was in pristine condition. Sure enough, same thing there. The 1889 wasn’t as bad visually, having a ‘browned’ finish already, but there were some places starting to pit, still.

That’s when I decided to get a stainless steel 1894 in 44 Mag, and limit my rough-weather outings to it, even though I preferred the 32-20 as a’woods-walking’ cartridge. From then on, my ‘pretty’ leverguns were relegated to good-weather hunting.

When they came out with the 1894CSS (stainless 357 version) I was thrilled; for me the perfect ‘all weather’ gun and in a cartridge that while lacking the history and romance of the 32-20, was certainly a practical option for ‘woods-walking’ in the Midwest.

I did note that the magazine tube over time showed some mild texture changes where under the forend, and realized it was still a bit vulnerable, but certainly faring better than the blued (or browned) steel of the others. I remember looking at different ways forends are attached on breakopen shotguns, and others like that where you just flip a lever in the forend slides off - and wondering why there weren’t leverguns made that way.

Anyway, as time passed I was lucky enough to have the ability to have two different ‘kinds’ of leverguns.

The first group are ones of traditional build, good looks, and still more fun at the range than bolt actions (too slow and boring just to get better-than-usually-needed-in-the-real-world accuracy), or semiautos (fast and efficient but to the point where the gun does 90% of the work). MOST of my leverguns are in this group.

The second group is the ones marketers would call ‘tactical’, where the priority is all about function and ‘tradition’ or ‘beauty’ completely irrelevant. For the most part it makes sense to use a semiauto carbine for these roles, at least the ‘home defense’ role, where the predator might travel in a pack and will likely shoot back. But there really IS a role for the ‘cowboy assault rifle’ if you have livestock, for instance. How do you safely shoot a chicken-killing raccoon that dashed 30 ft up a tree in the night and you only can see a couple square inches of it peering around the branch? That’s where a fat little 38 Special bullet will do the trick, delivered accurately even in the dark, due to attached flashlight and laser. An AR-15 in pretty much any chambering would be too dangerous to fire at that angle in case of a miss, even in a rural area; the 38 bullet wouldn’t make it off our property if I missed.

The other issue is muzzle flash and noise with the semiautos (suppressors help but are awkward unless on a ‘SBR’ and the cost and ridiculous regulations make that less than ideal). I know my AR in 223 will ‘reach out’ and deal with a wild dog or coyote hundreds of yards away, but at night, in the rain, my shots are going to be 75 yards or less - well within the range of a 357 Mag levergun (at least if it has good night-sights, light, etc). And again, the ‘pistol’ bullets I’ll be able to use won’t pose a threat to others half a mile away in the case of a miss, as much as a high-ballistic coefficient bullet from a 223 or 300 Blackout would.

The 8-10 shots in a tubular magazine will be plenty, so I don’t need the AR detachable magazine like I might for 2-legged predators, either. One less ‘thing’ sticking out of the gun to snag on brush or clothing.

So there is a role for the ‘tactical’ levergun, putting all the accoutrements of a modern AR to work enhancing a 150-year-old ‘platform’ in the form of a levergun, with its ability to shoot any velocity you choose, use very low-BC, wide-meplat bullets, and do so relatively quietly, even without a suppressor.

But part of that ‘upgrade’ for me was getting rid of the traditional forend. I can come in from a predator elimination or woods-walk in the pouring down rain, and with that little 1894 CST, just unload it and stick it in the furnace room to warm up and dry out. THAT is very cool.

So… pertinent to the original thread topic, although the regular levergun and the regular AR between them cover 90% of most needs, I do think there is a ‘middle’ ground covered by a ‘cowboy assault rifle’, and it is better filled by starting with a levergun as the ‘base’ versus an AR, as illustrated by the raccoon-in-tree example.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I agree with you that a .357 chambered Marlin is a whole lot more useful on the ranch. I have a JM Cowboy version that I really like.

Heck, I like them all. But the gun that goes out in rainy weather (which is not often the case on the west side of San Antonio) is a 94-22 Magnum that someone else wore all the finish off of.

[TraderVic]

I have been waiting awhile to purchase a 357 levergun, to go with two Ruger revolvers.
I just ordered a new Ruger Marlin 1894, 357 mag.
As I browse the Marlin "dark series" rifles, the darn thing is growing on me, kind of starting to like it.

[JimT]

I like the .357 combo ... use it more than others ... though to be honest, it hasn't been near enough this past year.

IMG_3181.JPG

[Griff]

I like the .357 combo ... use it more than others ... though to be honest, it hasn't been near enough this past year.
IMG_3181.JPG

Up until the boating accident, I had a couple of the Rossi carbines to mate up with the .357 Colt SAAs, but I was quite partial to my .45 Colt SAAs & the Winchester 94 in .30-30. This is the one that usually found it way into the back seat of the dually, or behind the front seat in the ½ ton p/u.

Trapper.JPG

[AJMD429]

Up until the boating accident, I had a couple of the Rossi carbines to mate up with the .357 Colt SAAs, but I was quite partial to my .45 Colt SAAs & the Winchester 94 in .30-30.

Those darned boating accidents....!

[jeepnik]

I question the wisdom of calling any weapon an “assault” type. Better to call them all self defense weapons.

[OldWin]

A 94 carbine in 30-30 is probably one of the most balanced long guns ever invented.
It was undoubtedly the unofficial firearm of my state, and to a large degree, it still is. It amazes me how many of our deer are still popped with one. And how many you still see in truck windows.
I would rather carry a Winchester carbine afield than anything. I also feel very well armed with one. The 30-30 is a fantastic cartridge, and I have the utmost confidence in it.
The only way I would choose not to carry one is in a scenario that required long term field conditions and exposure. I would probably choose my Ruger GSR. Even over some modern military rifle. Just the simplicity and ease of maintenance and cleaning. It's not that the 94 isn't capable of it, and has historically done it many times over. It just has more moving parts, wear points, and requires more.
Any other time, however, it's my first choice.

[Scott Tschirhart]

From my old friend.

https://youtu.be/5c71cGMb6sU?si=4uAONMbpn08k4JoB

[Grizz]

I question the wisdom of calling any weapon an “assault” type. Better to call them all self defense weapons.

agree with this. I have food harvest tools that can provide self-defense if necessary . . . my weapons tend toward the edged variety

[jeepnik]

I question the wisdom of calling any weapon an “assault” type. Better to call them all self defense weapons.

agree with this. I have food harvest tools that can provide self-defense if necessary . . . my weapons tend toward the edged variety

I still keep up with Kali. Even for a somewhat gimpy old guy two bolos can do an amazingly amount of damage in not much more than the blink of an eye.

I generally carry a 3 to 4 inch fixed blade. You don’t need anything bigger if used properly.

[Scott Tschirhart]

If I need to cut someone with a knife, I have seriously failed.

I can do it and have, but there’s something really repulsive about it in my mind.

[JimT]

I like knives and keep a few handy. Over the years I have used them a few times for peeling more than an apple, but for me they are like an Emergency item because for some reason or other I can't use the pistol. I have several in my truck, at least one mounted where I can reach it easily. I have had to cut seatbelts to get people out of car wrecks and I don't want to be stuck in mine if that should happen. Plus it's handy for other things. I have a machete by the driver's seat where it is handy also. They are not the first things I reach for, unlike my best friend.

I may have told this before but a couple years ago he was having trouble going to sleep so he told his wife he would go to the all-night grocery and to the week's shopping. About 1AM he was loading the groceries in his car when a car with loud rap music pulled up behind him and bracketed him with its lights. He turned around and saw two guys getting out of the car. He told me, "I had my 9mm on but I just reached into the car and pulled out the machete and grinned at them." They immediately turned around, got back in their car and left the parking lot.

Knowing him, they made a very wise choice. He's not a big guy but he did teach knife fighting and is very handy with a blade.

And like they say, a little guy with a big knife and a grin is scarier than a big guy with a knife.

[Grizz]

I generally carry a 3 to 4 inch fixed blade. You don’t need anything bigger if used properly.

the 2-1/2inch buck folder will sever the wrist tendons and arteries in a heartbeat, or the jugular of skinny people. I have field-dressed venison with it.

but like others I keep a roofing hatchet, a splitting hatchet, an extremely sharp viking knife, a machete, and a double-bit axe available when traveling. the first three are within easy reach. just in case. same as the fire extinguisher, which seems like something that can multi-task . . . maybe more useful than pepper spray. . . I drive alone a lot and have time to rehearse such things.

I also carry a cheap but workable bowie and like to have it visible on me if tending a fire or brewing coffee at a pull-out. It is, after all, the Great American Knife.

shalom †

[Scott Tschirhart]

I question the wisdom of calling any weapon an “assault” type. Better to call them all self defense weapons.

This is part of the bigger problem of letting the fear of what people might think control what we might say.

I’m not sure I care what people like that think.