Re-Posting An Old Topic

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JimT
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Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by JimT »

I don't know if there are users of this Forum who haven't read it, but here it is just in case .....

Speaking of "short" .45 Colts Elmer Keith wrote "...Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during and after World War I they would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long..." (]Sixguns, page 285)

As far as I know there have never been any .45 Colt cartridges headstamped "Long" and though I have reports of old cartridge boxes marked "45 Long" I have never personally seen any. Mr. Keith referred to them from time to time as "long" Colt's (with a small "L"). If you have ever seen the short Colt .45's you can understand why.

The Winchester .45 Colt's that Paco and I have came from Shootist Keith Owlett who gave them to us a short time before he passed on. The cartridge box is deteriorated and I have it put away - at least what's left of it. But it is plainly marked ".45 Colt Government". The headstamp on the cartridges is ".45 Colt" ...BUT these are SHORT .45 Colts! The headstamp is the same as the longer .45 Colts, even down to the "W" on the primers.

These are NOT S&W or Schofield cartridges. The rim diameter is the same as the long .45 Colts, which is smaller than the Schofield rim diameter. These are true .45 Short Colts. The cartridge is listed in Cartridges of the World on page 306 as ".45 Colt - .45 Colt Government".

I can visualize someone walking into a hardware store around the turn of the last century and asking for a box of .45 Colt's. As the clerk pulls down a box the customer says, "Not the short ones. I want the Long Colts!" and the name ".45 Long Colt" came down to us as a "user-applied" name, not a factory name.

The case is 1.1" long. The powder charge was black powder, approximately 28 grains. The bullet weighed right at 230 gr. and was lubed with a white chalky-looking substance. I fired one from my Ruger 7 1/2" barreled .45 and it went through the chronograph at near 750 fps.

A few days after chronographing I went out in the hills and called up a nice large coyote and shot him with the .45 short. He ran to within 10 feet of me, responding to the call. I pulled the gun up and shot, hitting him up through the right shoulder and spine, dropping him instantly. The little pointy bullet did not damage the pelt at all. I was able to tan the hide and make a nice looking wall hanging from it.

He was probably the last critter on earth ever killed with a short .45 Colt!

I wrote this up .. I think it was in Guns & Ammo (but I am not sure anymore .. it could have been one of the other Peterson Publication's magazines) ... somewhere between 1985 and 1989.
45sc1.jpg
45sc2.jpg
45sc3.jpg
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Griff
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by Griff »

I remember reading that after I joined here on the "Articles" page. Very good read.
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by Walt »

Jim, isn't it true that the .45 Schofield was also called .45 Government? Was there a dimensional difference between the cartridges you're describing and the .45 Schofield besides the rim diameter?
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by JimT »

I believe the Schofield was the same length, but a larger rim diameter. I think the powder charge and bullet weight were the same as the short .45 Colt.

I was told that Cartridges of the World has the story of the short .45 Colt and the long .45 Colt and the difference of the Schofield though I have never personally read it.
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Goes to show that it just does not pay to get one's panties in the wringer on this topic! :lol:
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by Griff »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:07 pmGoes to show that it just does not pay to get one's panties in the wringer on this topic! :lol:
As a "parts" kinda guy, I like calling things by their official nomenclature. And if I'm ever handed a box of the short Colts... I'll simply say, "...if I'd wanted Short Colts, I'd have asked for Short Colts!"
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

I wonder if the "shorts" could be interchanged with the Schofield rounds. I think it probably caused a mess with the government when their .45 ammo wouldn't interchange. Maybe the shorts were an attempt to alleviate that problem? If the .45 Colt were shortened, wouldn't it then chamber and fire in a Schofield?
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by Walt »

My "Cartridges of the World" is unfortunately a fourth edition printed in 1980 and does not mention a .45 Government cartridge with dimensions differing from the Schofield. Page 306 in my edition covers shotgun-related topics rather than handgun-specific material. Although the Schofield is a "short .45 Government" it is not a Colt round although it was used extensively in Colt revolvers prior to its discontinuation in about 1940.

The reference to page 306 was quite certainly from an earlier edition.

McNutJob, my "Cartridges of the World" states that a shortened .45 Colt round will fit and function in a Schofield.
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

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Rumble.com/ hickock45
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by JimT »

The article states: "The chambering selected was a .45 caliber black powder cartridge manufactured by the Union Metallic Cartridge Company of Bridgeport, CT. Based on the slightly older 44 Colt round, this new cartridge used the same rebated heel type bullet."
That is an error.
The .45 Colt (long or short) never used a heel bullet.
(edit: When first testing the Model P, it was made for use with a heel bullet cartridge. This was rejected by the Army and Colt redesigned it to the "long" cartridge we have today. It was re-submitted for testing and won out.)

The short .45 Colt government is different than the Schofield in that the rim of the Schofield is larger in diameter than the Colt rim. Black Hills ammunition produced Schofield .45 ammo for CAS. It too has the larger rim. Schofield ammo cannot be used in .45 Colt shell holders. They will not fit.

Here is a Colt cylinder with Schofield brass .. see how tight the space between the rims is?
IMG_5321.JPG
Same cylinder with .45 Colt brass.
IMG_5322.JPG
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by Walt »

In his "Sixguns by Keith" he wrote that he assumed Remington made the "short" .45 Colt Government rounds for use in the Schofields. He said that accuracy was poor and that they were a disgrace to the Colt Single Actions. He never shot any and thought that the longer bullet jump due to the shorter case length was a factor in their inaccuracy. The short .45 Colts were disparaged by the current gun magazines and by outdoorsmen and they were discontinued after a few years.
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by JimT »

The .44 Colt was an American centerfire revolver cartridge produced commercially from 1871 until the 1940s.

The cartridge was developed for the United States Army, and introduced by Colt's Patent Firearms around 1871. The Army used it until 1873, at which time it was replaced by the better known .45 Colt cartridge used in the recently adopted Colt Single Action Army revolver.

The .44 Colt was used in the Richards-Mason conversions of Colt's 1860 Army percussion revolver. The conversion process involved boring through the chambers of the obsolete cap and ball revolvers to enable them to chamber centerfire metallic cartridges.

This process left a chamber of uniform diameter, with no step at the front. Thus the bullet and the brass case were made the same diameter, with a short "heel" section at the base of the bullet of smaller diameter inserted in the mouth of the case.

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Colt)

Here is an original .44 Colt cartridge
44 Colt.JPG
.44 Colt heel bullets 210 gr.
44 Colt heel bullets.jpg
... available from
WESTERN BULLET CO.
904 Kensington Ave.
Missoula, MT 59801
Phone: (406) 728-4801
Email: info@westernbullet.com
On The Web: http://westernbullet.com
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by Walt »

Jim, the "heel type" .44 bullets shown have an exceedingly short bearing surface. They must have been lubricated in some way. I've heard of "outside" lubricated bullets that were notorious for picking up dirt and other contaminants. I can't imagine being able to put sufficient lubricant on that short bearing surface to reduce or prevent leading and one would think that unless the heel diameter was the same as bore diameter that the bullets would not stabilize.
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by JimT »

Walt wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 6:55 pm Jim, the "heel type" .44 bullets shown have an exceedingly short bearing surface. They must have been lubricated in some way. I've heard of "outside" lubricated bullets that were notorious for picking up dirt and other contaminants. I can't imagine being able to put sufficient lubricant on that short bearing surface to reduce or prevent leading and one would think that unless the heel diameter was the same as bore diameter that the bullets would not stabilize.
The original bullets were lubed with tallow and/or beeswax. And they did pick up dirt easily. Hollowbase bullets expanded into the rifling just fine.

I use Lee Liquid Alox. Works fine the way I am using them. Accuracy is good.
u.JPG
v.JPG
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by Walt »

Jim, when and where do you apply the Lee Liquid Alox? Do you put it only on the exposed part of the bullet immediately before loading them into your revolver? Your picture above does not show hollow-base bullets. Are those bullets the ones with which you shot the targets shown? Do the heels ride the bore or how are they stabilized?
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by JimT »

Walt wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:45 pm Jim, when and where do you apply the Lee Liquid Alox? Do you put it only on the exposed part of the bullet immediately before loading them into your revolver? Your picture above does not show hollow-base bullets. Are those bullets the ones with which you shot the targets shown? Do the heels ride the bore or how are they stabilized?
This is a completely different can of worms from the .44 Colt. I am using the .44 Colt bullet ..these are solid base bullets, not hollow base like the originals. But it doesn't matter because I am loading them in .44 Special cartridges and shooting them in the .44 Special. The heel is .430" and the bullet body is .441".

I use cases that have been fired in my gun. I do not size them or neck expand them. What I do is remove the crimp and take about .080" to .100" off the cases in my case trimmer. I remove any burrs inside and outside the case mouth. Once that is done no more operations on the case are necessary.

The loading process is:
1. deprime
2. prime
3. add powder charge
4. seat the bullet by pressing it into the case with your thumb
5. if the bullet is not lubed with something like Lee Liquid Alox, wipe a little lube on it and it is ready to fire.

The oversize front part of the bullet acts as a crimp. It butts against the "step" in the chamber when it is loaded in the gun and holds the bullet back for a micro-second just like a crimp does, allowing the powder to burn properly. It is completely sized by the chamber before it enters the barrel.
f.JPG
Left - bullet before loading Right - fired bullet

I roll them in Lee Tumble Lube before I load them into the cases.

HEEL BULLETS DO NOT NEED TO HAVE THE HEEL BE BORE-RIDING. They are cast soft and will expand into the rifling. Read my articles on the 480 Achilles ... they should explain everything. https://leverguns.com/480/Default.htm
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by Walt »

Very interesting! Thanks, Jim, I appreciate your TLAR theory.
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by JimT »

Walt wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:44 am Very interesting! Thanks, Jim, I appreciate your TLAR theory.
It seemed to be close enough it worked. :D

I remember John Linebaugh driving engineers at Hornady nuts when they asked him about his testing procedure developing the .475 Linebaugh. He said, It was raining so I drove out to my range, rolled the window down, stuck it out the window and fired."
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Re: Re-Posting An Old Topic

Post by Walt »

A very practical man.
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