I decided to post this since I posted my .357 article ....

[JimT]

Again, it probably has been posted before. It is one of Paco's from the old Sixgunner.Com website of years ago.

It Starts in 1935
by Paco

Up until the year 1935 the word "magnum" was used primarily with Champaign bottles that were larger than the normal quart sized.  That year Smith & Wesson brought out the first handgun cartridge called a magnum, because of it's larger shell casing.  The .357 magnum was really just the .38 Special elongated by a tenth of an inch.......but it was the pressure difference that made the new cartridge.  When in 1930 Smith & Wesson upgraded the .38 Special to the .38/44 they used the same cartridge case as the Special but jumped the pressure to around 20,000 to 25,000 psi.    The ammo boxed were marked "To be used in .38/44 handguns only" (fixed-sighted, heavy-frame 44/45 frame revolvers).  A year or so later the .38/44 Outdoorsman came on the scene.  It was basically the same heavy-frame gun but with adjustable sights.

From 1930 through to the beginning of 1935, the development of the .357 was underway.    Doug Wesson (the head of S&W) felt the .38/44 was good but more would be better.  To keep the .357 case from being accidentally fired in a .38 Special handgun the case was lengthened so they wouldn't chamber.  And the pressure of the new round was in the 40,000 plus psi levels.  Even at it's incredibly expensive $60 per copy it sold well.  The .38/44 Outdoorsman was $45 at the time and that was considered expensive for the Depression era 1930's.  For the years 1935 through 1940, Roy Jinks (the S&W Historian) states 6642 S&W handguns in .357 were sold.  More than 1200 a year. Not bad for the times and price.

The Second World War stopped production in 1940.  In 1950 when production and sales started again almost 3600 guns were sold in that one year.  And the .357 magnum has sold....and sold well....every year since then.  It has been chambered in many manufacturers guns and sold in hundred of styles and models.

Doug Wesson gave Phil Sharpe the credit for the lions share of the .357's development.    Elmer Keith has stated that he also contributed to it's development and he did, in a limited way.  He sent Wesson a large number of his cast bullets that he designed. (Lyman still makes the mold)  And he sent the loading data he was using in .38 Special cases in the .38/44 revolvers.  He states in his book SIXGUNS that the load was 11 gr. of  Number 80 powder. (now long obsolete)  Keith also points out that this load wrecked many small-framed .38 Specials.

As Elmer himself tells it, Winchester told Wesson that the load data of Keith's generated over 40,000 psi which they thought was crazy.  Eventually Winchester backed away from the project.  But...Remington picked up where they left off.  And when 2400 powder was finally developed it was used in the .357.  Approximately 15.8 gr. of it.   I have read a number of different experts who state that it was 15 gr., but the point amount fluctuates from .2 to .8 grains, depending on who you read.  I get 15.8 gr. from a WRA .357 magnum cartridge I opened and weighed.  It was a factory load from the late 1930's.  They velocity of those WRA cartridges were well over 1500 fps.....knocking out speculation that the original loadings in .357 did not get as high velocity as the advertising stated.  The advertising stated 1510 fps and the original loads were above that.

So the .357 ads were not hoopla but truth.  And the load data that Keith gave them (that generated "so much" pressure) was the pressure they had to go to anyway.    They could have saved themselves money and years of development and testing if they had listened to Keith from the start.

The interesting fact here is that Keith was using 40,000 psi pressure in the .38/44 handguns for years.  And never had a problem with the guns not being able to handle it, and then some.  But when S&W brought out the .357 magnum handgun they said it had to have special steel and special heat-treating and a lot of other statements about the uniqueness of the gun's structure over the other handguns.  Chances are that other than cosmetic changes in the .38/44 specs, and a .357 magnum length chamber.....both guns were made of the same steel and had the same heat-treatment.

Like is stated by many knowledgeable gun folks, there are better caliber's to hunt with for big game.  But if the .357 mag is NOT powerful enough for soft animals 200 pounds or so down....then how can the experts recommend the .357 for Law Enforcement?     Some of the criminals I've run into over my career were much bigger, far stronger, very hard, downright nasty, and much more aggressive than any poor soft-bodied deer-sized game.

Lets give that whole line of thinking a rest.  Either it is or it isn't.......it cannot be one and not the other.  Of seventeen shootings I was involved (either personally or in an investigative capacity) where the .357 was used, I would have to say it is well capable of handling living creatures of 200 pounds and above.  Especially when you consider police-type guns usually have 4 inch barrels or less.  And the trend today is to use even less powerful ammo and caliber's like the various 9mm's.    And they incapacitate nasty criminals every day.

Hunting handguns usually have six inch or better barrels and heavy hunting loads, unlike some police guns and loads. Practice, the right bullet, the right load, the right gun and the right sights are the keys. We do the hunting public (those that can't handle the big .40 plus magnum caliber's) a disservice by not explaining how to, and what to use, with the .357 to hunt.  There are folks out there that are going to hunt with the .357 no matter what we say.  No....we should be in the business of guiding them and giving them knowledge to make them and their firearm effective.

The big Rugers, Taurus, S&W's and other strongly made handguns should be the ones recommended for hunting.  And it should be carefully explained that the smaller and lighter .357's are for personal defense and police work.  Information on what loads are effective, what bullets work well, and what the limit is on distances should be made accessible to those who choose to hunt with the .357 magnum.  Exactly like is done with the larger caliber's.

I have read horror stories of how deer and black bear were not stopped with .357's.    Like the famous story of one writer who shot a black bear at point-blank range several times without stopping it.  He blamed the .357 that he used.  But when you find out his load data a different story emerges.  His load was a 158 gr. cast bullet at 1100 fps - a warm .38 Special defense load!   That is not a .357 hunting load!   And that is my point.  My coyote load alone is a 170 gr. or more cast load at near 1500 fps.  My deer load today uses a Hornady 180 gr. XTP at over 1400 fps.  I keep my hunting range at 50 to 75 yards.    Hunting loads, .357 magnum pressures, in hunting handguns.....not a .38 +P defense load.

The lowering of pressures and the smaller defensive handguns in .357 have been a great added plus to personal safety, but a detriment in the hunting field.  When we hunt with the .357 let's use a real .357 magnum gun and load.

[Tycer]

Excellent. I agree 100%! I’ve been a .357 fan since I traded a brake job for a Taurus. Held a K-frame once and the Taurus was gone. I owe the members of this forum, CBA and LASC a huge debt of gratitude for teaching me how to properly load the 357. Pie plates at 100 are no match for my 4” K-frames and a spicy 180 grainer. I’m grateful.

[Scott Tschirhart]

This one will take those heavy loads without complaint.

Jim, is this from Paco’s book?

[JimT]

It may be in his book ... I am not sure. It was posted on the old Sixgunner.Com website many years ago.

[Walt]

Nice picture, Scott! Beautiful 5" m27.....Skeeter's favorite.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Nice picture, Scott! Beautiful 5" m27.....Skeeter's favorite.

Just fell into my lap.

[4t5]

How HOT can an L frame be loaded?

[JimT]

How HOT can an L frame be loaded?

They can be loaded up until they do what this S&W did.

[Walt]

It used to be that 2400 powder cans looked very similar to Bullseye cans. I believe a large number of revolver blowups were due to picking up the wrong can and loading Bullseye while believing it was 2400. Especially in .44 mags, that'll reliably blow the top off the revolver.

[wvfarrier]

The black bear I have killed with 357 mag sure didnt know the difference between it and a 44 mag. They all died nearly instantly. My handloads will literally turn a coyote inside out

[4t5]

Maybe Pitchy can make a schofield with that open top L frame you have there.

[JimT]

Maybe Pitchy can make a schofield with that open top L frame you have there.

I don't know whose gun it is/was ... but if it were mine I would send it to him and let him!

[Twodot]

Maybe Pitchy can make a schofield with that open top L frame you have there.

I don't know whose gun it is/was ... but if it were mine I would send it to him and let him!

if it was mine I wouldn't admit it
..

[Scott Tschirhart]

The black bear I have killed with 357 mag sure didnt know the difference between it and a 44 mag. They all died nearly instantly. My handloads will literally turn a coyote inside out

That’s been my experience as well.

I really like the .357 in a carbine. It’s a whole different critter.

Especially with a 180 gr XTP

[4t5]

Scott, you're in good company, I believe Paco once shared the same thoughts regarding the 180 gr in the .357.

[piller]

I cannot remember where I read it, but years ago I read something about a .38/44 that some police officer was using back in the day. He was telling how the loads for it had wrecked a regular .38 Special pistol of some kind. The extra steel allowed for the .38/44 to be loaded up enough to punch through doors on the crooks cars and stop the getaways. Then the .357 Magnum came along. The way he wrote about it, he thought the loads which were only safe in the .38/44 pistols were pretty close to .357 Magnum power.
I do a little reloading, and have a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt caliber. The Ruger and T/C only loads are an entirely different animal from the Colt safe loads. Sort of like .38 Special safe loads and .357 Magnum only loads. You might not always want to shoot the heavier loads, and not all guns can handle them. It is nice to have the option of loading up to a power level which will cleanly and humanely do the job.

[Ray]

If I remember correctly, our own much respected tubaman damaged the cylinder ratchets of one of the smaller-framed (flattop) ruger .357s with 180 gr. bullets and sanctioned load data.

[Scott Tschirhart]

If I remember correctly, our own much respected tubaman damaged the cylinder ratchets of one of the smaller-framed (flattop) ruger .357s with 180 gr. bullets and sanctioned load data.

I’d be interested in hearing more about this. I used to shoot a 180 gr XTP loaded long over a big dollop of Lil Gun in a McPhearson modified Marlin 94.

But I’ve never really used these loads in a revolver.

[samsi]

If I remember correctly, our own much respected tubaman damaged the cylinder ratchets of one of the smaller-framed (flattop) ruger .357s with 180 gr. bullets and sanctioned load data.

I’d be interested in hearing more about this. I used to shoot a 180 gr XTP loaded long over a big dollop of Lil Gun in a McPhearson modified Marlin 94.

But I’ve never really used these loads in a revolver.

I've seen some Ruger SA's with peening of the standing breech in the cylinder ratchet recess, both in person and in photos. I recall Dave Scovill published one of his own heavily used Blackhawks that was a little hammered looking - don't recall if there was a pic of the ratchet as well but it would be plausible. The culprit is probably a combination of heavy loads, inadequate lube and inconsistent heat treatment (Rugers, like any piece of machinery aren't necessarily perfect). It's one of the reasons that I use grease on the ratchet along with a little dab on the breechface.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I use a little red axle grease on my traditional firearms and the tub I have will likely last the rest of my life.

Frame rails on my 1911s, moving parts in my leverguns and the ratchet and base pin on my single action revolvers.

But I don’t think I’ve ever seen the battering described. It could be that I shoot a great deal more .38 Special cartridges than I will ever shoot .357 Magnum.

[Walt]

I only shoot lead bullets in my handguns and some of my rifles so I clean after each shooting session. The last step before putting them away is to oil the face of the ratchet, the front of the cylinder touching the frame and the basepin. I had read that suggestion decades ago and it seems to work for me.